Jetstar A330 Tow Incident at Melb

[Brian Noldt]

I saw this on another forum

I have Googled the incident, and the only reference to the incident is on that forum.
Apparently during a tow, the tow-bar-less tug lost control, and jack knifed.
There is a picture on that forum.
It says in one posting that the nose gear assembly will need replacing and maybe the mains as well.
It looks like VH-EBD is the aircraft.

Brian

[JamesL]

The aircraft is EBD, there was a towing incident where a driver was driving to fast and missed a corner, thus resulting in a steep turn which resulted into a 180 spin under the aircraft.

The Nose wheel assy is being replaced at a cost of $1.5mil~, its currently sitting in the old JHAS hanger.

[Paul F]

Haven't seen anything posted on here but I believe there was a incident during the week with a Tiger A320 and a tug at MEL, I have seen a photo with what looks like a damaged nose wheel .

[JamesL]

Aircraft was VNB

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Was that Wednesday night?

I ask, as I was at the Ops Rd Car Park, and between 9.30 and 10.30pm I saw 2 aircraft under tow.

The first, (Tiger I think, Tail light not on) was rocketing along the Taxiway Alpha, I think down to the JH area, and the second was a Jetstar A320, doing the correct speed - slow.

Unfortunately didn't get Tug details on radio, as I was on Tower, and not SMC / Ground.

Stuart

[JamesL]

Hi Stuart, was a pushback incident, not on TWY A

[Nigel C]

The first, (Tiger I think, Tail light not on) was rocketing along the Taxiway Alpha, I think down to the JH area, and the second was a Jetstar A320, doing the correct speed - slow.

Ok....
1. Are you a speed expert?
2. Do you know whether the alleged Tiger (which you can't actually be sure of because the tail light wasn't on....) was exceeding company (or possibly manufaturers) limits on tow speed? And if so, was it because:
a) you really are a speed expert as per question 1?
b) you had a speed gun and were able to determine 'rocket' speed from outside the airport boundary
c) you have intimate knowledge of both Tigers (again, you make an assumption that Tiger had no tail lights on) and Airbus' maximum tow speeds and can make that claim as per both a) and b)?
3. Define 'slow'
4. Explain why 'slow' is the 'correct speed'
5. Does it state in Jetstar's training manuals that towing must be done 'slow'?
6. Just why did you assume it was Tiger? Was it because Jetstar would never 'rocket' around the taxiways and that this is a practice best left for ultra-low cost carriers?
7. Are Tiger the only airline to tow around airports under the cover of "logo light darkness" to conceal their rocket tow speeds from speed experts in public areas?


Have I missed something?

[Geoff Br]

Seems when you read another forum posts, from obviously air side workers, speed would seem to be an issue of contention, maybe though a lack of training and or supervision. I liked the post where they thought tug driver swerved to avoid a rabbit....
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-543060.html

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi Nigel,

I only asked some questions from an observation, on Wednesday night, that I thought were relevant to a previous statement?

It is people like you, who put people off asking questions on not just this forum, but others as well!!

This forum is here so like minded people can ask questions or post statements, without the fear of members like you being a bully in your responses.

A simple Response of "No it isn't" would have done.

Stuart

[Nigel C]

Stuart,

Nice to chat to you too.

The only question asked was whether it was Wednesday night. After that you made a rather damning statement based on your own perception of what you saw. Now, with me not knowing you, your background, Melbourne ops, Melbourne's layout, ATC instructions, tugs used, tug capabilities in Melbourne, companies involved in towing/engineering etc, I asked a series of questions to help me determine whether your statement held any weight of credibility, or whether you were being sensationalist.


For me, I don't drive tugs, I don't know what speed limitiations are imposed on towing ops by either the airline, the tug operator, the tug manufacturer. I don't know what the ATC instruction was i.e. was one of the operators told to expidite by ATC? Was the other instructed to make it a slow tow to allow for other traffic in the area? I simply don't know.
But perhaps you do know, hence my line of questioning.

It is people like you, who put people off asking questions on not just this forum, but others as well!!
This forum is here so like minded people can ask questions or post statements, without the fear of members like you being a bully in your responses.

If you, or anyone else makes a sensational claim or statement, then why can't people (including me) challenge what's been said? If you have proof to back up your claim, then let's hear it!
We are often so critical of how the media reports incidents involving aviation, but it's little wonder if they go trawling public forums to see what info they can dig out and the next thing you know there's 'eyewitness accounts of an aircraft being towed recklessly at rocket speeds....' being splashed around.


Finally, I couldn't answer with a simple "No it isn't" because I don't know. I wasn't there, and in fact I haven't been to Melbourne for the past 2 years.

[John C]

I have personally witnessed Jetstar towbarless tugs moving A320's at what I consider to be inappropriate speeds.

If I was taxying the aeroplane it would have been too fast, so way too fast for a tow.

[JamesL]

Hi John,

JQ's training for the towbarless tugs in MEL was rated as per the specifications of the tug which was 40km/h which is also the regulated max speed of a vehicle on a taxiway under the MELAIR ADA system.

Regards,

[Daniel M]

What about corners, say, alpha into golf ?

[John C]

Hi James

As a generalisation 21 knots or 40 km/h is way too fast for an aeroplane under tow. It might be ok on a long stretch like taxiway S without any turns, but I have seen them take the 90 degree turns around S, Y and A seemingly without slowing down. When taxying the aeroplane the most we would do for those sorts of turns is 10 kts, less if wet.


It is all ok if it is going ok (if that makes sense!) but if the machine has to stop quickly, having 60 or so tonnes of jet unbraked is problematic. I know they carry a brake rider on board, but there is a level of coordination required to get that person to apply the brakes, by which time it is too late.

I am sure it is all within the spec, and I admit I have never towed an aeroplane, but having flown jets since 1994 and flown turboprops well before that, I wouldn't be comfortable with the machines being moved around the way I see them being moved.

[JamesL]

Oh and we all agree John, I do not work for JQ, I know a few that do thus the comment.

Daniel I know where your going with this, however would not know the specific answer to that question, I know when I tow with a bar, we tow at between 10-15km/h

[Nigel C]

I'm yet to see a tug go faster than 30 at Syd (measured by Lidar), and that's with no aircraft attached. I don't know if they ever get that fast all hooked up with an aircraft.
JamesL, for what it's worth, YSSY has a limit of 60 on the Twy's

[Fred C]

Hi All,

The speed limit on taxiways is not relevant when towing an aircraft. It is the aircraft maintenance manual that determines the allowable towing speed of an aircraft. I will check for sure when I get a chance.

From experience, anything over 15km/h is scary when you have that much weight behind you. ie: A 767, A330 747.

Corners are taken at less than 10 km/h and that is with the tug accelerating (ie pulling the aircraft). You should never take a corner with the aircraft pushing you through it.

[Nigel C]

The speed limit on taxiways is not relevant when towing an aircraft.

Agreed and nor should it be. Safety should be the no-1 concern.
It's a whole new topic really, but I'm surprised there's such a difference in Twy speed limits down in Mel compared to Syd. They are 2 different airports, sure, but they were once flying the same Federal Airports Corporation banner. Happy to be corrected on this, but I'd imagine airside driving rules would have been fairly universal across all FAC controlled airports, with only minor changes for each port's peculiarities?

From experience, anything over 15km/h is scary when you have that much weight behind you. ie: A 767, A330 747.

Corners are taken at less than 10 km/h and that is with the tug accelerating (ie pulling the aircraft). You should never take a corner with the aircraft pushing you through it.

Even in a straight line over 15 is scary fast? I suppose the tugs do bounce around a bit on minor bumps, so any faster and that bounce gets exacerbated.
How noticable is the push of the aircraft behind you when you need to brake? And I presume all braking should be done before a corner, and not during it?

[Daniel M]

Nigel, what are the other speed limits at SYD (for interests sake) ?

MEL has some ridiculous limits on it's airside roads, one in particular on a stretch of road that is basically open paddocks on both sides, yet it is restricted to 15km/h which is basically coasting. From what I've heard, they implemented these speed limits only so that they could win some sort of international safety award, but in terms of practicality for airport workers driving on these roads, it is beyond ridiculous.

[Paul F]

Yes I agree 15km/h on a road with wide open spaces on both sides is ridiculous, yet I can drive down a road with shops and schools each side at 40- 60km/h:eek:

[JamesL]

The 15km/h was brought into due to the mandated wearing of a seat belt in a tug, and that if they reduced the limit it would limit the chance of a roll over thus safe to wear a seat belt in a tug.

[Nigel C]

Nigel, what are the other speed limits at SYD (for interests sake) ?

MEL has some ridiculous limits on it's airside roads, one in particular on a stretch of road that is basically open paddocks on both sides, yet it is restricted to 15km/h which is basically coasting. From what I've heard, they implemented these speed limits only so that they could win some sort of international safety award, but in terms of practicality for airport workers driving on these roads, it is beyond ridiculous.

Daniel, Google is your friend! From the Sydney Airport AVCH, go to Page 39 and it has the speed limits posted there
http://www.sydneyairport.com.au/corporate/~/media/files/corporate/service%20directory/airside%20driving%20centre/avchv%20v304.pdf

[Fred C]

When I tow aircraft I try not to brake. You should back off well before the corner, slow down and then be accelerating through it. The brakes are only used when approaching a holding point and only for the final meter or so.

It is always advisable to pull the aircraft around the corner. Braking in a corner will just lead to pain and almost certainly when wet.

An example. If I was towing an A330 with a Red Bravo sized tug and braked heavily from 15 km/h, in a straight line, it would take about 20 meters to stop. That would also place an awful lot of load on the tow bar. Ultimately you would be better off communicating with the person in the flight deck and getting them to use the aircraft brakes in an emergency situation.

[Brian Noldt]

Another incident, this time at Townsville.

An Alliance Airlines Focker, during pushback, knocks over a catering truck.

Story here: http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/alliance-aeroplane-backs-into-catering-truck/story-fnjfzs4b-1226996938577

Brian