Rest periods for long haul crews

[Bob C]

I work night shift and am constantly tired from one day to the next even though I get 6-8 hours sleep in a 24 hour period, albeit usually in two 3-4 hour blocks.

So I've often wondered how International long haul crews cope particularly when crossing times zones and how much rest they have between arriving and departing on their next flight. I'm particularly interested in QF flights from SYD and MEL to LAX, DXB, LHR and DFW and would expect that rest periods to Asian destinations would be shorter.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Daniel M]

Not sure with QF, but for VA flights BNE/SYD-LAX, crew will arrive around 7-8am and do not sign on until the following evening at about 9pm.

Eg. Arrive LAX 7am Monday morning, they will rest the remainder of Monday and Tuesday, and sign on for their flight Tuesday evening for a late evening departure.

[Tom Lohdan]

UA with the 747's use to be a 6 day turn around, but they also performed the SYD-MEL-SYD tags within that period.

Not sure what they do now with the 777/787's.

Given the turn around time, I couldn't work out why they were so grumpy for a 14h flight.

[Daniel M]

I follow a UA 787 Captain on social media and he has mentioned they arrive and then leave the following day. Seems to be barely 24 hours on the ground.

Talk about being worked to the bone !

[Adam W]

CASA regulations state that long haul crews must have a minimum of 36 hours rest between flights. This applies to all Australian based carriers.

[Michael Mak]

I watched the Air Canada B777-200LR YYZ-YVR-SYD-YVR Just Plane DVD and the crew only had one night of layover in Sydney.

Years ago, not sure about now, CX crew used to have 2 nights layover in SYD.

VS, when they operated HKG-SYD-HKG, had 1 night layover for HKG-SYD-HKG, 2 nights for LHR-HKG-LHR.

[Radi K]

To add to the above, for the flights you are talking about (>12 hours), 4 crew are rostered. All 4 are normally present in the flight deck for take-off and landing.

During the cruise however, 2 are resting and 2 are flying. Most pilots prefer short-short, long-long type breaks. Meaning, crew 1 will fly for 2 hours whilst the other two rest, then swap. Then second break is normally 3-4 hours (sleep) and then swap.

It's normal for the pilot flying (can be CA or FO) will get the last rest. So they arrive in the flight deck fully rested for the landing. That being the case, some captains, due to body clocks, timezones etc (on early morning arrivals into AUS), normally fly the return leg into Australia and let the FO fly outbound. That way, the captain is fully rested (and normally less jet-lagged). Perks of the left seat I guess.

Again, I'm talking in general here, various operators do things different ways. I know Emirates stipulate on their Ultra Long Haul flights, which (of the 4) crew will be flying and which will be operating as the back-up. This is so the pilots can adjust their sleeping patterns accordingly. From my understanding, it's common for the two that crew that flew the aircraft into a country, to operate as the back-up crew on the way back.

Some pilots are lucky and can sleep in the bunks with no problem. Others have been known to never be able to sleep in-flight!

Lastly, I think Qantas still allow the crew on ultra-long-haul sectors to receive a limousine/taxi to/from Sydney and their home to assist in fatigue.

[Alex Ch]

An EK ultra long haul such as DXB-SYD (4 crew) two pilots (CN,FO) will operate as the augmenting crew. These two will then operate the tag flights to NZ as two crew. On the way back back to DXB they again operate as augmenting crew with the other two pilots who have been resting up on a longer layover.

At CX, consideration must be given to whether any of the crew is a based pilot in that port (and therefore on a different body clock) to a pilot on layover. They may decide 'burn out' the SO as PNF in order to optimise the resting periods for the pilot carrying out the landing.

[Daniel M]

Some pilots are lucky and can sleep in the bunks with no problem. Others have been known to never be able to sleep in-flight!


That'd be me ! I can barely sleep in a fully flat first/business class bed :eek:

[Alex Lui]

From my chats with the VA crew when we went to LAX, yup, they arrive at 7am and clock on the next evening at about 9pm for the flight back. I have been told though that the Sydney crew normally turns around for Brisbane (and what was Melbourne) and vice versa, so that would entail a little longer layover in LAX. I believe Brisbane arrives earlier than Sydney as well.

I have heard that QF for the JFK run, the total days away is 5-6 days. There is at least 24 hours in LAX roughly, at least 24 in New York and then 24 again in LAX before heading home. Happy to be proven wrong though but that's what I have heard from talking to various crews.

I do know with Singapore, back in the days when it was 3x 744 flights, SQ221 would turn around to operate SQ222, SQ231 would do SQ220 (which is now SQ212) and SQ219 (which is now SQ211) would do SQ232. Given that 2 flights are now 777's, I am assuming SQ231 crew turns around for SQ212 and SQ211 crew turns around for SQ222.

Alex.

[Todd Hendry]

Ok,
As a pilot just coming off the 747 and just staring my A330 course I'll let you know what we do.
It's a very complicated award in QF so I won't go into that. But I'll tell you what I do.
As an example
The SYD-LAX-JFK-LAX is a 9 day trip for the pilots.
48 hours in each port.
The second night in LAX before you fly to NY is hard to sleep because you're body clock is keeping you awake.
In New York it's hard to wake up in the morning and do stuff during the day. You have to be keen.
I used to sleep all day on the last day to fly back to LAX.
In LAX your body is getting the idea of waking up in the morning and sleeping at night. But only just.
Then I slept in the afternoon before the 9pm ish wake up call to fly the 108 home.
Taxing on the body time zone wise unless you like hotel rooms 24 hours a day.
It usually took me a day or so to get on Sydney time after the trip.
I have been told by a Chemist that your body clock takes 6 weeks to get on the correct time zone. So basically no crew in Longhaul are on their timezone. Maybe if you're only doing Asia you'd be ok. But not big timezone changes like LAX, JFK, SCL, JNB, LHR, FRA.

[Nigel C]

Managing the body clock is hard....any shift worker who tells you otherwise is lying in my opinion.

I'm not a pilot, but I work 2 days, 2 nights then have 4 days off and have done so for the past 16 years. My rostered shifts are 12 hours long. Whilst having 4 days off out of every 8 sounds like the perfect working week to many people, it is largely filled with recovery from the previous shifts especially on the first 2-3 days.

[Todd Hendry]

I'm hearin' ya Nigel.

[Mick F]

I used to work a very similar pattern to you Nige in my old job which I did for nearly 7 years. However I was lucky in that on my night shifts, if I didn't get called in to fly, or even if I did and I finished early, well I could quite often nearly get a full night's sleep in. But it was still a complete stuff around for my body clock, and I think I aged about 21 years during the 7 years I did it for!

These days, not doing back of the clock flying very often, I am stuffed after just doing PER-SYD!

Mick

[Alex Ch]

Very interesting, Todd. It must have been painful doing a US/SCL trip followed by a west bound to JNB or vice versa.

The 330 will be a bit kinder for you in that respect. Some nice layovers too although I imagine the HNL trips go quite senior.

[Ryan N]

How much time do you guys have off in your home port before your next lot of international flights?

[Todd Hendry]

Depends on how your roster goes. For the 400, min was 2 days.
I'll be relatively senior on the A330 Alex.

[Chris B.]

When operating the pacific flights, as we usually stay there for 36hrs (VA), I normally keep my rest time according to AEST. Arriving in LA at 0630L is 0130L (ex SYD) or 0030L (ex BNE). So I don't normally sleep on those flights as it's just like having a long night. By the time I get to the hotel I'm ready for bed and then continue on about my day.

AUH on the other hand is quite different. Because those flights are every second day from SYD, we get a much longer layover. For the SOs up to 4 nights locally (depending on the day of the week they depart SYD), the rest is 3 nights locally. To adjust your body clock -7hrs is quite difficult. If you keep your body clock on AEST you're going to bed at 1600 or 1700 and then waking up about 0100 to 0200. Problem is there's nothing to do until everything opens up about 6hrs later so you're just sitting in the room. what works for me is I try and adjust slowly over the 4 nights and depends on what rest I have got on the way home will determine what time I go to bed the night before.

It takes a while to get used to but everyone usually finds out what works best for them. Like Todd said with regards to rest days after a trip, it all depends on the roster. We can have up to 2 local nights in our home base before being sent off again.

[Bob C]

Hi guys

Thanks for all the replies - very enlightening and informative.

Cheers

Bob

[George G]

Interesting insights. Thanks

[David N]

I am half way through Confessions of a Qantas Flight Attendant (http://www.randomhouse.com.au/content/titles/9780857982193.jpg) by Owen Beddall.

On his first International flight a few years ago to LAX, he stated The company mandates your to have twenty minutes rest every six hours; however, no one goes by thathe likes five hours and crew swap shifts to get it.
He talks about all the lay overs in each city and how they achieve that uninterrupted five hour sleep during flight :eek: :rolleyes:

[Montague S]

I have been told by a Chemist that your body clock takes 6 weeks to get on the correct time zone. So basically no crew in Longhaul are on their timezone. Maybe if you're only doing Asia you'd be ok. But not big timezone changes like LAX, JFK, SCL, JNB, LHR, FRA.

it works out at a week for every timezone..6 zones = about 6 weeks recovery time, and so-on.

[Ash W]

It is more like a day per time zone.

[Justin L]

Yeah, I've always heard and thought a day per time zone also. And that's fairly consistent with my jet lag recovery experience also.

But that's not to say for full recovery it's not a week per time zone though. Would be interested in knowing more.

[Nigel C]

It might be only a day if you're not doing constant time zone skipping (i.e as a passenger on holidays or occasional business travel), but doing it constantly takes its toll.

[Justin L]

That perspective makes sense. Thanks for the additional insight Nigel.

[Robert.M]

Explains why it took so long to get over my jet lag (SYD-SFO). Just as I got over that I headed for CO and got altitude sickness in DEN.

[Nigel C]

Altitude sickness is a pure nightmare. Got it myself in Hawaii on the big island when driving up to the space observatory.

[Jason A]

Owen Beddel's book is of course a load of garbage. I won't even begin on that. The stories are beyond exaggerated.

As a Long Haul Cabin Crew Onboard Manager, we are required to have 20min every 6hours, but on SYD-LAX, BNE-LAX the reality is we would get 2 breaks of say 60-90 min if we are lucky. Five hours is impossible seen as though we deliver 3 services on the flight and have a crew of 14 on a 747.

While 90min sounds long, by the time you make it to the crew rest bunk without being grabbed on the leg several times by passengers wanting more, taking clothes off, setting the bunk up with fresh pillow case etc and then actually winding down and letting yourself drift off, you would be lucky if you can actually fall into a deep sleep and even if you did it wouldn't be for very long as the crew rest is cold and bumpy!It's more a place where you can get away from it all and 'step away' from the never ending call bell shuffle.

The best rest is achieved on the layover when you arrive!

[Mark Grima]

Interesting insights Jason on the rest Cabin crew get during a shift. It's actually something I'd never thought of. The use of two flight crews is well documented of course, not so the needs of cabin crew. Thanks.

On the same point, Todd can you give an insight to the quality of mid shift rest? Is it actually beneficial, do you feel rested when you jump back in the seat?

I'm a shift worker and know that if I ever nod off during a night shift I feel horrendous once I wake up. Admittedly I'm talking about sleep you'd count in minutes rather than hours.

Cheers

Mark

[Todd Hendry]

Mark,
The sleep is very beneficial. But there are better rests than others depending on a few factors including sleep before a flight in the hotel. Time of departure body clock wise and local time. What stage of the trip you're on etc etc.
A good few hours rest is excellent. And getting back to the seat I generally feel refreshed. But if I don't feel refreshed straight away it only takes a few minutes to get back to normal.
Smaller breaks, say two and a half hours sometimes only really take the edge off. Especially if your break starts at top of climb. Getting to sleep then is tricky.
Hope that helps.
Feel free to ask me more questions.
Todd.

[Mark Grima]

Thanks Todd for your insights. Greatly appreciated. Not being employed in the industry, merely interested in it, it's great to hear from professionals such as your self.

I do appreciate the effects of a good night sleep prior to a flight. I travelled from Canberra to Perth on Friday morning on only a couple hours sleep. Heading back east tonight and still trying to catch up from the journey over.

Cheers

Mark

[Mark Grima]

Was thinking about domestic crews today. How many flights do they do a day (excluding the 330 crews. I assume they do a east/west return loop) and how many flying days before they have days off?

Obviously they don't have the time zone issues but I'd imagine multiple rotations a day can be punishing?

Cheers

M

[John C]

In a non QF airline 737 and Ejet crews do up to 5 sectors a day, 330 crews do 1 or 2 depending on the times.

In a past life there used to be dash 8 crews doing BNE-GLA-ROK-MKY-TSV-CNS and return in the one day and from memory the Brasilia crews added in Bundaberg to make 12 for the day. Great fun when the weather was no good.

[Zac M]

Presently I think the most Dash 8 crews are doing is 6....SYD-CBR return three times.