Airlines call for curfew end at Sydney Airport

[Nigel C]

Here we go again...

From www.news.com.au

Airlines call for curfew end
July 07, 2008 12:59am

QANTAS and Singapore Airlines have called for a curfew at Sydney Airport to be scrapped to allow flights throughout the night at Australia's largest air hub.

The two airlines are lobbying the federal government for the changes, saying a cap of 80 flights an hour, and an 11pm to 6am curfew, are restricting growth at the airport.

Both argue that quieter planes make it possible to scrap the night curfew, with Qantas arguing jets should be allowed to land but not take off.

Without change, a second airport would have to be built in Sydney to cope with booming traffic numbers, Qantas argues in its submission to the government.

However, the proposal has received short shrift from federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese, who said the current quota and curfew system strikes the right balance for surrounding communities.

"The original legislation establishing the cap and curfew at Sydney Airport passed the Parliament with bipartison support,'' Mr Albanese told Fairfax Newspapers.

"It strikes the right balance between the commercial interests of the airport and protecting the quality of life of local residents.''

Mr Albanese's electorate of Grayndler sits to the north of the airport and is arguably the most affected by aircraft noise in Sydney, Fairfax said.

The mayor of nearby Marrickville, Dimitrios Thanos, angrily slammed the airlines' proposal, saying both are putting profit above the needs of surrounding communities.

[Sarah C]

Here we go again...

The mayor of nearby Marrickville, Dimitrios Thanos, angrily slammed the airlines' proposal, saying both are putting profit above the needs of surrounding communities.



Maybe I have missed something - how is extending the curfew going to increase profits? I doubt any of the airlines want to schedule services to arrive or depart outside the normal hours. Why it does need to be extended is so delayed aircraft are not stuck in their original port, they can't arrive or have to divert. The JQ debarcle of a couple of months ago is why the curfew should be extended.

[Rich W]

Is there any curfew at Richmond RAAF?

[Erik H. Bakke]

One solution could be to make the curfew softer by allowing flights operated by certain aircraft types (based on noise footprint) and which have a scheduled arrival or departure time outside of curfew to take off/land during curfew.

Curfew excemptions would then be granted depending on the prior on-time performance of the flight and airline in question, to avoid airlines abusing the system.

[Malcolm Parker]

I thought the airport was here long before the residents. I have no sympathy. The world standing of Sydney is only getting stymied by the short sightedness of both the state and federal governments. Sydney Airport is just one of many number of venues / services affected the inactions of both these governments (including former govt's). All they seem to look at is their current term ahead in politics and not the long term picture. I am just sick of it and had enough. It's little wonder NSW is losing out now to other states and the rest of the world.

[Raymond Rowe]

Simple the airlines need to use other airports as a major hub and only use sydney as required.Australia is a big country and has six other states.

[Kent Broadhead]

I thought the airport was here long before the residents. I have no sympathy. The world standing of Sydney is only getting stymied by the short sightedness of both the state and federal governments. Sydney Airport is just one of many number of venues / services affected the inactions of both these governments (including former govt's). All they seem to look at is their current term ahead in politics and not the long term picture. I am just sick of it and had enough. It's little wonder NSW is losing out now to other states and the rest of the world.
Ease up on the angry pills Malcom!! :)

Yes, the airport was there long before most residents (I have a centarian in my street who's lived there all her life). But remember that the curfew was strengthened with the opening of 16L/34R, when the supposed closure of 07/25 had huge impact north of the airport - I was living in Stanmore at the time and change was very marked. So much so that I chose my current house to avoid (for the most part) significant flight paths.

Then Howard changed the flight paths to move flights away from Bennelong, so my new place was impacted for the first time....

That said, I'm somewhat sympathetic to Erik's suggestion.

Cheers

Kent

[Steve S... 2]

Malcolm Parker - Thanks mate you said it all for me! Couldn't put it better myself!

What the hell does anyone buying a property near the airport or near a flight path expect.

Sometimes I am not proud to be Australian! Well being in Sydney (nasty city)I am not proud, to be honest. If I weren't trapped here I'd be out.

[Dave C]

I think they probably expect the curfew to remain in force. Why wouldn't they?

[Adam G]

One solution could be to make the curfew softer by allowing flights operated by certain aircraft types (based on noise footprint) and which have a scheduled arrival or departure time outside of curfew to take off/land during curfew.

Curfew excemptions would then be granted depending on the prior on-time performance of the flight and airline in question, to avoid airlines abusing the system.

This already happens

[Sarah C]

It is funny listening to residents complaining - the airport has been there for over 85 years, no one forced them to live near the airport. Marrickville and Tempe are right near to the airport - it is logical you will get airport noise. Either that or you move the airport 2 hours away (and disturb no residents) and that is just not logical.

Even in MEL with thier location and no curfew, there is probably still people who are not happy with the noise. If the noise was reduced, they would still complain.

[damien b]

Is there any curfew at Richmond RAAF?

Yes, (11pm until 7am on memory)although the RAAF can fly 24/7 for military reasons, but the operations guys (those who schedule the flights) need approval from rather high up. Late arrivals are usually tolerated if its due to weather or uncontrollable circumstances, but no departures after 11pm on memory. We even needed permission from the base commander to conduct engine runs during the curfew hours.

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Why don't the airlines use Melbourne instead, as we don't have a curfew at all.

Why can't Sydney siders fly to Melbourne:D:D then depart Australia for interntional flights, instead of us poor Melbourne Folk flying to Sydney:eek::eek:

This is aimed at Qantas 63/64, Virgin Atlantic, Qatar, Air Canada.

As it has been previously stated, the airport was in the area long before residents moved in, and by moving into the area near the airport, you must expect aircraft noise.

If you can't handle it, you should move out, as you also must understand that airports will grow in size every few years.

If you don't understand that, you have your head in the sand!!!

Stuart

[Nick W.]

Here's the situation in MEL, but they're not complaining:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k8IvBkrvA0

;)

[Adam P.]

Why can't Sydney siders fly to Melbourne then depart Australia for interntional flights, instead of us poor Melbourne Folk flying to Sydney

Because flying south to Melbourne to then fly north again when going overseas (and the majority of 'the rest of the world' is in a generally northerly direction from Australia; hence why it's the 'Great Southern Land') makes no sense..


In other words, Sydney's 'on the way' when going overseas from melbourne... Melbourne is not 'on the way' for people doing it the other way...



http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/gy.gif

[Philip Argy]

It is funny listening to residents complaining - the airport has been there for over 85 years, no one forced them to live near the airport. Marrickville and Tempe are right near to the airport - it is logical you will get airport noise. Either that or you move the airport 2 hours away (and disturb no residents) and that is just not logical.

Even in MEL with thier location and no curfew, there is probably still people who are not happy with the noise. If the noise was reduced, they would still complain.

I have lived under 16R flight path since 1958 and no complaints - I have always loved plane spotting. However, I have also enjoyed 7 hours of undisturbed sleeping time which I value. The curfew has been part of the airport regime for almost my entire living memory, and that is the regime I willingly live under.

A slight relaxation of the curfew for unavoidable delays, newer quieter technology, and on 34L as far as possible, is probably tolerable. But a wholesale abandonment of the curfew is a whole new ball game and not tolerable even for very moderate and normally well behaved individuals!! Sleep deprivation seems to have strange effects on people!

[D Chan]

time to ease the curfew slightly I'd say - and stop choking our economy this way. More flights come in and out = more money rolling into our economy.

Was watching the news and heard the statement "the curfew is the only time of relief for residents living under the flight path". Well this statement can only be true if they were using the same runway the whole day.

[Andrew M]

I thought the airport was here long before the residents. I have no sympathy. The world standing of Sydney is only getting stymied by the short sightedness of both the state and federal governments. Sydney Airport is just one of many number of venues / services affected the inactions of both these governments (including former govt's). All they seem to look at is their current term ahead in politics and not the long term picture. I am just sick of it and had enough.

Here Here!!!!

:D

[Sarah C]

The funny thing is with the level of traffic these days (particularly with all of the trucks around Tempe) at all hours of the day, that road traffic is pretty loud and would be just as disruptive as air noise.

[Kent Broadhead]

A slight relaxation of the curfew for unavoidable delays, newer quieter technology, and on 34L as far as possible, is probably tolerable. But a wholesale abandonment of the curfew is a whole new ball game and not tolerable even for very moderate and normally well behaved individuals!! Sleep deprivation seems to have strange effects on people!
Hear, hear Philip!!!

I can live during the day with the Howard imposed flightpaths which were moved almost overhead for the first time since the airport was opened because I can see the planes.:)

But I can't support a significant relaxation of the curfew overnight.

Also, as 16L/34R was opened in 1994, does that mean people who lived under that flightpath pre-94 can complain? :)

Loved the letter in today's SMH from the guy in Leichhardt stating that "they" were lying to say that the A380 was quieter - it is soooooo obviously much quieter than a 744 with it's relatively light load. The heavily loaded A345 takeoff late at night seems louder....

Kent

[Sarah C]

Loved the letter in today's SMH from the guy in Leichhardt stating that "they" were lying to say that the A380 was quieter - it is soooooo obviously much quieter than a 744 with it's relatively light load. The heavily loaded A345 takeoff late at night seems louder....

Kent

Kent, wasn't that the same letter writer who said he hears the A380 taking off each morning? Funny that he hears an A380 in the morning when it has been leaving in the afternoon for a while now.

[Michael Mak]

Kent, wasn't that the same letter writer who said he hears the A380 taking off each morning? Funny that he hears an A380 in the morning when it has been leaving in the afternoon for a while now.

He probably doesn't even know the differences between a 767 and a A380.

[Kent Broadhead]

Kent, wasn't that the same letter writer who said he hears the A380 taking off each morning? Funny that he hears an A380 in the morning when it has been leaving in the afternoon for a while now.
Yes Sarah, agreed - didn't really have a clue what he was talking about - just didn't like noise. If that's the case, why did he buy in Leichhardt?

But I still don't support 34L/R departures outside current operating hours....:)

Kent

[Sarah C]

Yeah Kent, it was funny reading the letter. If you are going to make a point, backing up with facts that are correct helps ;)

The letter writers keep bringing up the second airport (even Goulburn mentioned ) as a way to divert noise. YSSY is not busy at all by world standards in terms of movements. Imagine if Sydney actually operated to the capacity it was built for.

[Kent Broadhead]

YSSY is not busy at all by world standards in terms of movements. Imagine if Sydney actually operated to the capacity it was built for.
There was another letter raising the SYD-MEL VFT chestnut again - 2.5 hr trip my a**e. That said, if airport capacity was an issue you could start there, pushing for QF and DJ to double their plane size and halve the services......;)

Kent

[Erik H. Bakke]

Easy in theory, get the governments to subsidise fuel used in aircraft with a certain number of seats filled per departure.

Would stimulate the airlines to use larger aircraft.

Now, there's only the small matter of how to make it happen in real life...

[Jethro H]

Yes, (11pm until 7am on memory)although the RAAF can fly 24/7 for military reasons, but the operations guys (those who schedule the flights) need approval from rather high up. Late arrivals are usually tolerated if its due to weather or uncontrollable circumstances, but no departures after 11pm on memory. We even needed permission from the base commander to conduct engine runs during the curfew hours.
Yes, but its only a Policy which can be changed by management... mind you they have to be careful to do so.
Sydney Curfew is an Act of Parliament.

[Kent Broadhead]

Now, there's only the small matter of how to make it happen in real life...

I wasn't saying it was a practical suggestion, just a logical suggestion....:)

[NickN]

I agree with the fact that late arrivals should be able to land after curfew. After all, delays are not planned by the airlines and are not normally inside of their control to solve either.

Would there be an issue with late arrivals being made to use 34L for arrivals AND 16L for departures. Both are over the water.

[ChrisG.]

Errrr, unless all those engines stop working at the same time Nick, then no.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

I agree with the fact that late arrivals should be able to land after curfew. After all, delays are not planned by the airlines and are not normally inside of their control to solve either.

Would there be an issue with late arrivals being made to use 34L for arrivals AND 16L for departures. Both are over the water.


You can't use 34L when there is a strong southerly blowing, or 16R when there is a northerly, so yes, there are many issues with using those runways. It'll be diversion or delay-city if the weather conditions aren't right.

[NickN]

What are the maximum crosswind ratings for the aircraft expected to land after curfew?

It would have to be a significantly strong crosswind to prevent a landing and normally at that time of night conditions are relatively still.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

What are the maximum crosswind ratings for the aircraft expected to land after curfew?

It would have to be a significantly strong crosswind to prevent a landing and normally at that time of night conditions are relatively still.

Well, there's crosswinds (most a/c are limited to around 40kts, but it varies by type), and then there's tail winds!

[Nigel C]

It would have to be a significantly strong crosswind to prevent a landing and normally at that time of night conditions are relatively still.

Normally, yes.
If there is a strong wing at night it's usually howling from the south or west.