'Restricted' Photography Areas at YSSY

[damian f]

Hello all,

I don't get much chance to come from country Qld to Sydney any more to take plane photos, but after a recent 'run-in' at Cairns, I decided to write a nice letter to SACL about where I could take pictures and to let them know of my intentions etc. Got an interesting reply...

It seems that there are now only two 'officially unrestricted' areas from which spotters can take photos. According to SACL, these are from 'Shep's mound' and the International Terminal Observation Deck.

From correspondence received from SACL, if you wish to take photos from any other area around the airport - Qantas Drive, Ross Smith Avenue (GA Apron), Beach, Domestic Terminals 2 and 3 (Virgin/Qantas) - you have to pay a fees of $300+GST per hour and receive permission from SACL to do so. If this isn't done and you take a risk, you will be asked to cease taking photos and asked to move on.

Interested to hear members' thoughts!

You may also like to read my other thread Re: Bankstown Airport.

Damian

[Montague S]

love to see how they'd enforce it...

[Nigel C]

You could always go through the official channels and do some airside photography...

From www.sydneyairport.com.au
Filming and photography – fees
A fee is levied in advance for filming and photography activity undertaken for commercial gain. The full amount of the fee will be notified by SACL after an application is received and before the activity commences. No filming or photography will be permitted until the applicable fee is paid, unless prior arrangements have been made with the Community Affairs Officer. Fees are as follows:
Photography (still) terminal: $300 per hour + gst
Photography (still) airside: $650 + gst first hour, $600 + gst per hour thereafter
Filming terminal: $500 + gst first hour, $450 + gst per hour thereafter
Filming airside: $650 + gst first hour, $600 + gst per hour thereafter
Should specific SACL personnel or services be required to undertake the activity, a further fee may be levied. Depending on location and duration of the activity, an additional fee may also be imposed to cover the additional deployment of security or safety personnel.

Or perhaps you might want to try Newcastle Airport...

From www.newcastleairport.com.au
Filming and photography – fees
A fee is levied in advance for filming and photography activity undertaken for commercial gain. The full
amount of the fee will be notified by Newcastle Airport after an application is received and before the activity
commences. No filming or photography will be permitted until the applicable fee is paid, unless piror
arrangements have been made with the Marketing Communications Officer. Fees are as follows:
Photography (still) terminal: $200 each hour (plus GST)
Photography (still) airside: $600 first hour (plus GST), $350 (plus GST) each hour thereafter
Filming terminal: $500 first hour (plus GST), $200 (plus GST) each hour thereafter
Filming airside: $600 first hour (plus GST), $350 (plus GST) each hour thereafter
Should specific Newcastle Airport personal or services be required to undertake the activity, a further fee
may be levied. Depending on location and duration of the activity, an additional fee may also be imposed to
cover the additional deployment of security or safety personnel.


You'll probably get the shots you want, and if they're good enough you can sell them to cover the cost of the airside access!

[Nigel C]

I didn't know Macquarie owned Newcastle Airport too...


I placed the Newcastle info there so people could see that charging for photography isn't simply the domain of SACL or Macquarie. It happens all over the place.


But if you're so keen to make sure Macquarie doesn't see any of your dollars, then don't take a cab in Sydney, drive a toll road or fly to or from the airport...chances are you'll be topping up Macquarie's coffers. They seem to have their fingers in more pies than you can poke a stick at, and no amount of complaining is ever going to change that. It's a fact of life, deal with it!

[Lukas M]

How do you get to Sheps Mound on foot from Qantas Domestic??:confused:, its just im making my first ever "Sydney Spotting" trip next week:D

[Brian Wilkes]

How do you get to Sheps Mound on foot from Qantas Domestic??:confused:, its just im making my first ever "Sydney Spotting" trip next week:D

"WALK"..Good Luck:D

[matthew mcdonald]

You could catch the Domestic Terminal, long term carpark bus (P Bus) to the long term carpark and wark from there to the mound. Not that far from the carpark. That is what I do when I go to the mound, but I've just got my P's so that will change.

[David M]

I wonder if that's the real reason for photography not being allowed on the Tarmac tours?? ;)

David.M.

[Nigel C]

I wonder if that's the real reason for photography not being allowed on the Tarmac tours?? ;)

David.M.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!

[Ryan Hothersall]

They probably use 'security' as an excuse, but this crap is about one thing $$$$.

[Mick M]

These are commercial rates aimed at commercial photographers who sell images taken on the airport. The area bounded by Qantas Drive, General Holmes Drive and the eastern banks of the river and canal all form part of the SACL leased lands, that is the entire patch of dirt sits on Commonwealth land. SACL paid a gazillion kahunas to run the airport, and owns the buildings (with the exception of T3 and the jet base, but that's another story).

All the areas you refer to are public places. SACL own T1 and T2 and as owners can regulate activities. The other external areas are all public places, outside the magical line of demarcation called the fence (which has more significance for airport security legislation that the 49th parallel does in Korea).

The provisions in relation to security controlled and security restricted areas are significantly different outside the fence. This is not to say PC Plod can't ask you to leave ( Rule 1, don't argue with PC Plod............ever...........) however HM PC Plod enforces laws, not commercial arrangements that organisations may wish to apply to their operations.

Last time I checked the Control of On Airport Activities Act and regs, Crimes Act, Aviation Transport Security Act and regs, the Hairy Arsed Taxi Driver Act and a swag of others, nowhere is there a reference to regulation of photography in other than restricted areas. (Pull that stunt within the Customs Controlled Areas and you'll soon find that it is a fact that Customs Officers are born without the humour chromosome).

Therefore PC Plod is not a collector of revenues for commercial activities and will not stick beak into said issues in public places if no offences are detected. PC Plod in fact recognises that it is better to have extra eyes and ears in some of those places, and it is therefore not a good idea to antagonise such friendlies, unless ladders are on fences, fences being fiddled with, cars within 3m of the fence, yayayadayada..............

The same issues apply at Bankstown (or YSBK if we must!). However, and this is a big however.......... Refer to Nigel's post about airside photography. There are a number of folks who misuse their ASIC's for the purpose of loitering airside for photography. These images even get posted on this board occasionally. This is a breach of conditions of use and can get your ASIC revoked, as well as risking punitive action. Again, outside the fence, outside the Security Restricted Areas, there is no lawful reason not to take photographs (but review rule 1 further up the page!)

References to DOTARS are made by ill educated folk who try and bluff you by invoking the wrath of faceless public servants (who really don't give a tinkers cuss about planespotters). I'm sure it's just easier to say " DOTARS made me do it" rather than "We think you just annoy us, so we'd rather not have you here as we can't make dosh from you"

[David Knudsen]

You could always go through the official channels and do some airside photography...
Photography (still) airside: $650 + gst first hour, $600 + gst per hour thereafter


That's not too bad, there are 279 members here at the moment, so if we can all go at once that's only $2.56 each for the first hour, and $2.37 for each hour after that, thats cheaper than seeing a movie! Nigel, see what you can arrange?:D

[Nigel C]

Ryan,
Have you ever heard of such a thing as corporate security? Photography and the images obtained can be included in this, and many businesses can be sensitive about what images are collected and where and how they are then distributed.

You've got to remember, it's not just the airport owners assets that have to be 'protected'...the airport owner also has part responsibility for the protection of assets of the tenants of the airport (i.e. airlines and the various agencies who use that airport).

There are a lot of companies (not just airports) that wouldn't be happy about images being taken and distributed without their knowledge or permission.

but this crap is about one thing $$$$.

Then let's all have a little hissy fit that we're not getting our own way. You want unrestricted access to do what you want? Go spotting at Bunyan.

This 'crap' as you put it, is all about you not getting to do what YOU want when it suits you. It's got nothing to do with the money that an airport makes.

[Nigel C]

That's not too bad, there are 279 members here at the moment, so if we can all go at once that's only $2.56 each for the first hour, and $2.37 for each hour after that, thats cheaper than seeing a movie! Nigel, see what you can arrange?:D


I think I'll need the shot gun for crowd control!

And er, I'll let you make the phone call...

[Chris Griffiths]

Still Photography fees:

Administration Fee -
per application + GST
(Non Refundable) $ 109.00 $ 11.00 $ 120.00
Per Day
07:00am – 7:00pm $ 1364.00 $ 136.00 $1500.00
Per Half Day or part thereof $ 627.00 $ 63.00 $ 690.00

Pretty steep huh...
What airport is that?
Who said anything about an Airport?
That is Manly Council, NSW, anywhere in the Manly "Local Govt Area"

[Stephen Brown]

These are commercial rates aimed at commercial photographers who sell images taken on the airport. The area bounded by Qantas Drive, General Holmes Drive and the eastern banks of the river and canal all form part of the SACL leased lands, that is the entire patch of dirt sits on Commonwealth land. SACL paid a gazillion kahunas to run the airport, and owns the buildings (with the exception of T3 and the jet base, but that's another story).

All the areas you refer to are public places. SACL own T1 and T2 and as owners can regulate activities. The other external areas are all public places, outside the magical line of demarcation called the fence (which has more significance for airport security legislation that the 49th parallel does in Korea).

The provisions in relation to security controlled and security restricted areas are significantly different outside the fence. This is not to say PC Plod can't ask you to leave ( Rule 1, don't argue with PC Plod............ever...........) however HM PC Plod enforces laws, not commercial arrangements that organisations may wish to apply to their operations.

Last time I checked the Control of On Airport Activities Act and regs, Crimes Act, Aviation Transport Security Act and regs, the Hairy Arsed Taxi Driver Act and a swag of others, nowhere is there a reference to regulation of photography in other than restricted areas. (Pull that stunt within the Customs Controlled Areas and you'll soon find that it is a fact that Customs Officers are born without the humour chromosome).

Therefore PC Plod is not a collector of revenues for commercial activities and will not stick beak into said issues in public places if no offences are detected. PC Plod in fact recognises that it is better to have extra eyes and ears in some of those places, and it is therefore not a good idea to antagonise such friendlies, unless ladders are on fences, fences being fiddled with, cars within 3m of the fence, yayayadayada..............

The same issues apply at Bankstown (or YSBK if we must!). However, and this is a big however.......... Refer to Nigel's post about airside photography. There are a number of folks who misuse their ASIC's for the purpose of loitering airside for photography. These images even get posted on this board occasionally. This is a breach of conditions of use and can get your ASIC revoked, as well as risking punitive action. Again, outside the fence, outside the Security Restricted Areas, there is no lawful reason not to take photographs (but review rule 1 further up the page!)

References to DOTARS are made by ill educated folk who try and bluff you by invoking the wrath of faceless public servants (who really don't give a tinkers cuss about planespotters). I'm sure it's just easier to say " DOTARS made me do it" rather than "We think you just annoy us, so we'd rather not have you here as we can't make dosh from you"

Why thank you Mick for that insightful intelligent non-emotional assessment of the overall situation. You sound like you know what your talking about.

[Mick M]

Nige, don't worry about it, I know someone with an ASIC. We'll just sign em in, take the photos then it'll be in the terrorgraph in 2 days time!

[Morris Biondi]

Guys I have edited the original post, unfortunately when banks and money are mentioned in the same sentence it seems to bring out people's feelings.
This is the modified version.

I have 2 questions:

1. Are those fees for an individual or could that be for a group under a certain commercial banner like Sydney spotters inc., meaning you could share the costs amongst a number of people.(I kind of know what the answer is but maybe I'm wrong).

2. What do they mean by terminal, is that from behind the glass, or standing outside the terminal airside? Like say at the old Bangkok airport where you'd pay a fee for a few hours to stand at the end of a pier.


Morris

[Nigel C]

Do you know a good judge who can let us off after we get charged?

Perhaps the TWU or Daily Terrorgraph can help out...anyone know what the outcome of their case was? I couldn't be bothered doing a search.

[Nigel C]

Guys you read my mind, if you're willing to pay the big bucks all of the sudden it is permitted...


Morris

I think you'd still need a good excuse for doing the photography in the first place, and even then it's not a given that you'll be granted access.

[Mick M]

Ya know Nigel, I was going to mention said union in last post but I thought better of it. Now you get the blame for the next baggage strike. And magistrates, no, I'd better stay mum on that point!

[Ryan Hothersall]

Sorry if I came across like I was having a hissy fit.

What I can't understand is that companies are worried about cameras, yet people have eyes and a brain.

If they are so worried, build a big wall around the airport, blindfold everyone that has to go past the wall and put passengers aboard planes with no windows , then only fly at night and then sit back and watch how fast the airport and airlines go out of business.

[damian f]

Good to see some healthly debate... again about an age-old subject!!

Maybe SACL have mis-understood me... I take 'catalogue' photos for my own personal collection. I have no commercial interest at all, or even gained commercially in the last 13 or so years of enjoying my hobby. I consider the fees ridiculous and would rather risk 10 mins at the GA to get a few Biz-jets than pay $XXX for the time.

Hi Morris, I made it quite clear that by 'terminal', I meant inside from the 'public areas' - behind the glass - definitley not airside. I also made it quite clear that at no stage do I wish to go airside at all... as far as I am concerned, SACL have provided sufficient landside areas for me to get the photos that I want.

My original letter to SACL was as a result of an incident at Cairns Airport where the 'current security climate' excuse was used to suggest that for future visits to ANY airport, I seek written approval from the relevant Authority to take photos at that airport... This is the first time I have done this and look what happens...

Damian

[Brenden S]

It isnt that hard to sneak a camera onto that bus!!!
I walked from the terminal to sheps mound a few times before I got my wheels. Long walk but worth the effort.

[Morris Biondi]

Damien,

You did the right thing by trying to get official permission, I think I certainly misunderstood what was meant by the letter, I'm glad you cleared up, unfortunately when you write to official bodies sometimes you get official replies as Craig said you probably just got a standard response.

But I do stress that you did the right thing, unfortunately the concept is unknown here in Sydney, but at airports around the world like MCO or CDG if you write in advance you will be issued with a pass which will let security know what you are doing, they may still approach you, but once you show this official pass you will be OK.

Here in Sydney to be fair if you do the right thing and stay about 3 meters back from the fence you will rarely be hassled, our hobby seems to be understood better here than in a lot of other places around the world.

When you come down the locals will show you exactly where to take the best photos at what time of the day.

Good luck.

Morris

[Grant Smith]

Damien,
Here in Sydney to be fair if you do the right thing and stay about 3 meters back from the fence you will rarely be hassled, our hobby seems to be understood better here than in a lot of other places around the world.


Moreso if you know the right people ;)

[Steve Schueler]

Last month I was approached by a Virgin Blue crew member and asked to stop photographing one of the new Virgin Embraers through the window at the Sydney Domestic Virgin Terminal. The reason given was because of 'Security'.
Anyone else had this experience?

[Brian Wilkes]

Last month I was approached by a Virgin Blue crew member and asked to stop photographing one of the new Virgin Embraers through the window at the Sydney Domestic Virgin Terminal. The reason given was because of 'Security'.
Anyone else had this experience?

Take no notice of them and tell them to go about there business.

[Nigel C]

Way to go Brian...create a scene and make things more difficult for the next guy.:confused:

While I don't pretend to know the rules and regs regarding photography in the terminals, I can't see the point in getting worked up, and working up the person who's asked the photographer to stop, instead of just following the directions given.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I like my life to be as trouble, hassle and stress free as possible.

[Brian Wilkes]

Way to go Brian...create a scene and make things more difficult for the next guy.:confused:

While I don't pretend to know the rules and regs regarding photography in the terminals, I can't see the point in getting worked up, and working up the person who's asked the photographer to stop, instead of just following the directions given.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I like my life to be as trouble, hassle and stress free as possible.

I dont know how YOU handle your self but Many photographers just turn a blind eye to them:rolleyes:

[Andrew P]

Take no notice of them and tell them to go about there business.

Nigel

by letting the DJ person get away with it, its making things more difficult for the next guy.:confused:

Banjo

[Nigel C]

Like I said Banjo, I don't know what the rules and regs are within the terminals (I rarely go in them).

I don't think it's a matter of letting the DJ person 'get away with it', but if you feel that the person may have overstepped the mark, then why not ask to see the airport's duty terminal manager in the presence of the person who asked you to stop. You'll get final clarification, and they'll also know whether they're within or outside their boundaries.

Cheers

[Nigel C]

I dont know how YOU handle your self but Many photographers just turn a blind eye to them:rolleyes:

Brian,
As previously mentioned, I spend very little time within airport terminals, and when I do, I never have a camera with me. Therefore I never get approached on the issue at hand!

[Raymond Rowe]

The Duty Manager will stick with the staff member anyway. Whether it is truth or not.They will not make one of their staff look like idiots.Remember they will bend the rules to save face.

[D Chan]

Last month I was approached by a Virgin Blue crew member and asked to stop photographing one of the new Virgin Embraers through the window at the Sydney Domestic Virgin Terminal. The reason given was because of 'Security'.
Anyone else had this experience?


I once took a photo of the 'Flight Details' TV screen at the arrivals level at Syd Intl Terminal (near the cityrail station entrance) and a federal police officer just happened to have been walking near by. I was told to delete the photo because of "security". I feel tempted to ask the officer why I should delete the photos, given the fact that these flight details info are posted on the Sydney Airport website everyday anyway - but of course I didn't - that would be a waste of my breath... :rolleyes:

[Nigel C]

Ray,
Have a re-read of the posts and take note of the fact that I said 'airport' duty terminal manager, not 'airline' terminal manager.

I strongly doubt the airport manager is going to cover an airline workers butt if they're in the wrong...:rolleyes:

Perhaps in your days with Ansett your management was in the practice of covering your stuff-ups? If that was a culture within the business, then it was a recipe for disaster...

[Morris Biondi]

Guys I think it's a simple matter of the DJ staff member being out of line, there are security staff in place to deal with security issues if this was a security issue, which of course taking a photo of an aircraft from a terminal after you have gone past security screening is hardly what i would classify as such, but if the regulations state as such then it should be made clear to the public with signage as it is in Moscow SVO and other airports around the world, since this is clearly not the case then the staff member should mind his own business and do his job whatever that may be.

Morris

[Erik H. Bakke]

Guys I think it's a simple matter of the DJ staff member being out of line, there are security staff in place to deal with security issues if this was a security issue, which of course taking a photo of an aircraft from a terminal after you have gone past security screening is hardly what i would classify as such, but if the regulations state as such then it should be made clear to the public with signage as it is in Moscow SVO and other airports around the world, since this is clearly not the case then the staff member should mind his own business and do his job whatever that may be.

Morris

I remember back since before I aquired this pot-belly of mine, back in Bergen, Norway. The local airport, Flesland, was also a major air force base and there were lots of restrictions on photography.
Every 10-20 meters along the entire perimeter fence where signs making it very clear that photography was absolutely prohibited and attracted severe punishment.

These signs remained in place long after the air force ceased regular operations from the airport, and scaled back to using the underground hangars for pretty much just for storage.

When I moved from the area, it was still illegal to take photos of the airport and surrounding areas from the air, but judging from photos at different collections around the net, it looks like this has been lifted.