Monorail proposal to link Melbourne airports

[Justin L]

Interesting. But don't CityLink have some sort of exclusivity for transport to Tullamarine with their freeways which is one of the reasons an airport rail link was knocked back?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24037741-23349,00.html


Monorail proposal to link airports
Rick Wallace, Victorian political reporter | July 18, 2008

AT the risk of turning Melbourne's transport woes into a song and dance routine, a European consortium has proposed building a monorail that will run between Geelong and Frankston as an alternative to an $8.5billion, west-east rail tunnel being considered by the state Government.

Transrapid, a joint-venture between German industrial giants Siemens and ThyssenKrupp, has advocated the revolutionary idea in a submission to the Victorian Government's review in the wake of Rod Eddington's study on Melbourne's transport needs.

While the plan is certain to be mocked for its echoes of a famous The Simpsons plot line, Transrapid general manager Peter Hatcher is serious about the idea.

He said for half the price of the planned rail tunnel -- which is intended to run between the inner suburbs of Footscray and Caulfield -- Transrapid could build a high-speed monorail more than 100km long.

Transrapid claims the monorail would link Melbourne's two airports and travel at speeds of up to 250km/h suspended above the track using magnetic levitation technology, cutting the travelling time from the CBD to Frankston to just 12 minutes.

"The system's high acceleration rates allow significant reductions in travel time over even short distances, and relatively high operating speeds in the order of 250km/h can be achieved in built-up areas with virtually no noise emission," the submission says.

The only commercial Transrapid train operates in Shanghai, where it links the city with Pudong Airport at speeds of about 430km/h.

However, the system has a chequered history in Germany, where in 2006 a Transrapid train operating on a demonstration track crashed into a maintenance car, killing 23 people.

[NickN]

Monorail!.... Monorail!......... Monoraillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll!

[Ash W]

Monorail!.... Monorail!......... Monoraillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll!


And your point is?


As for the proposal where in the article does it mention the airport? All I see is it talking about Geelong to Frankston. This seems to be a reaction to a report by Rod Eddington (ex Ansett, ex BA) to build some new lines in Melbounre including a new tunnel under the city. People need to stop and think why the Transrapid Maglev only has one customer so far? The reason is because in theory it is good, but in practice not so easy, not so cheap and not as reliable as more traditional forms of transport. Funny how now they are quoting a speed of 250KM/h, when they were proposing Syd/CBR/Mel and SYD/ Wollongong the speed was 500km/h. Traditional steel on steel can do 350KM/h+ on a properly designed track, and on non dedicated tracks can do 200km/h again if designed right.

[Justin L]

And your point is?


As for the proposal where in the article does it mention the airport? All I see is it talking about Geelong to Frankston. This seems to be a reaction to a report by Rod Eddington (ex Ansett, ex BA) to build some new lines in Melbounre including a new tunnel under the city. People need to stop and think why the Transrapid Maglev only has one customer so far? The reason is because in theory it is good, but in practice not so easy, not so cheap and not as reliable as more traditional forms of transport. Funny how now they are quoting a speed of 250KM/h, when they were proposing Syd/CBR/Mel and SYD/ Wollongong the speed was 500km/h. Traditional steel on steel can do 350KM/h+ on a properly designed track, and on non dedicated tracks can do 200km/h again if designed right.

Ash, the airport is mentioned in the sentence I highlighted in bold (Transrapid claims the monorail would link Melbourne's two airports.) Presumably a Geelong-Frankston monorail would go via Avalon. They'd need a brach line from the city to Tullamarine I suppose. And Nick's monorail reference is to a Simpsons episode.

[NickN]

..... and one of the best Simpsons episodes too btw, although they are all tops.

[Bill S]

250km/h for a maglev is very slow - I went for a ride in the one in Shanghai a while back. It's still throttled-back from what it can really do, but is still very fast.

http://www.billzilla.org/shanghaispeed.jpg

:)

[D Chan]

high operating speeds but also high operating costs!

[Bill S]

high operating speeds but also high operating costs!

So what are the exact costs?

[Kelvin R]

I thought it was the other way round, high construction cost but low operating costs.

[Greg M]

Interesting. But don't CityLink have some sort of exclusivity for transport to Tullamarine with their freeways which is one of the reasons an airport rail link was knocked back?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24037741-23349,00.html

['Transrapid claims the monorail would link Melbourne's two airports and travel at speeds of up to 250km/h suspended above the track using magnetic levitation technology, cutting the travelling time from the CBD to Frankston to just 12 minutes.']

Earth to Transrapid??? Are you there???
The article can only be a PR stunt, the Germans have been experimenting with maglev for ages....

Munich was going to build a maglev train as a solution to airport to city woes, I have done the 45+ minute, train trip a number of times, and can confirm it is needed.

However the idea has become unstuck when the price tag increased from €1.85 to €3.4 billion for the 40 kilometre track...

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/03/maglev-project.html

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/aug2007/gb20070821_130419.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily

[Rhys Xanthis]

i dont see how a geelong-frankston service would link any airports at all? what would it link avalon to? the surburban train line that frankston has? all the people will want to get back on the maglev to go back home if the first thing they see is frankston:p

[Michael Mak]

i dont see how a geelong-frankston service would link any airports at all? what would it link avalon to? the surburban train line that frankston has? all the people will want to get back on the maglev to go back home if the first thing they see is frankston:p
Moorabbin Airport? :D

[D Chan]

So what are the exact costs?

costly to passengers (I don't think fares will be as cheap as those of normal trains), which raises a question, will there be enough passengers who would want to catch the 'monorail' at an additional cost (question marks as to how much) to save half an hour or 40 minutes of time.

costly to maintain and operate (depends how the operator runs it e.g. frequency and how much patronage I guess)

costly to construct (refer to Greg M's post)

[Ash W]

I thought it was the other way round, high construction cost but low operating costs.

The operating costs would be very high too. It takes quite a lot of electricty to get a maglev train to levitate. Also the track needs quite a high level of maintenance, especially 'turn outs' which are quite complex.

It seems to me anytime someone raises a transport issue Transrapid comes up with a maglev solution which seems to derail (no pun intended) any serious discussion about adddressing the real issues.

[Kim F]

I thought the Victorian Gov had said yes to a normal rail link to Tulla, about two months ago

[Michael Mak]

I thought the Victorian Gov had said yes to a normal rail link to Tulla, about two months ago
Even the rail link to MEL was built, how successful would it be? Brisbane has its own rail link to BNE but it doesn't meet early or late flights, the interval between the train service is 30 minutes. Travelers are after flexibility, more frequency is needed. And not to mention how much they are charging for it (about $24 return?)

Sydney's Airport Link suffers from similar problem. The high cost is turning lots of people away. Personally I don't think PPP works for Public Transport.

I think Melbourne's Skybus is excellent, high frequency and the price is reasonable for the service it offers. A rail link to Tulla could well become another white elephant.

Michael

[Lachlan H]

The operating costs would be very high too. It takes quite a lot of electricty to get a maglev train to levitate.

False. The maglev is VERY effecient, it only powers up the piece of track the trains currently on, and the next section of track the train is about to go onto, every other bit of track is switched off. Im not sure of the stats but someone might be able to explain how it compares to current trains in Australia. It also has very little noise as there is no friction between the train and tracks as it levitates, all you hear is the wind as it goes past.

Ive been on japanese bullet trains, french TGV and eurostar's and the shanghai maglev, and i felt most comfortable and safest on the Maglev, because it wraps around the track you feel more comfortable and safer, compared to on the eurostar when it tilted to go around a corner and you feel wonky on your feet in the dining car!

[Ash W]

False. The maglev is VERY effecient, it only powers up the piece of track the trains currently on, and the next section of track the train is about to go onto, every other bit of track is switched off. Im not sure of the stats but someone might be able to explain how it compares to current trains in Australia. It also has very little noise as there is no friction between the train and tracks as it levitates, all you hear is the wind as it goes past.

Yes I know how it works, but the magnetic field required to make the train levetate comes at a power consumtion cost, not to mention the massive cost of the track and the maintenance of said track.

Ive been on japanese bullet trains, french TGV and eurostar's and the shanghai maglev, and i felt most comfortable and safest on the Maglev, because it wraps around the track you feel more comfortable and safer, compared to on the eurostar when it tilted to go around a corner and you feel wonky on your feet in the dining car!

Actually those trains are designed to be wonky. In fact the British were one of the pioneers of fast train technology but their tilt train design was so good that there was no sense of movement which in turn made people sick when they road in it. I am not sure how the maglev gets around this but they aren't silly so I am sure it does somehow.

As for stablity on the track, a few TGV's have come off the track in their 20 years of operation but the articulated/common bogie design means it stays upright even if it derails at 300km/h+. If you want a good stat about safety 23 people have been killed in maglev accidents compared to 0 in "high speed" TGV accidents. There are about 400 TGV trains operating daily, and how many maglevs? Not many. (PS by high speed I mean on dedicated high speed tracks)

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the maglev as such, except I don't think it is the answer to any of the transport problems the world faces. Traditional technology such as steel on steel is very safe and still has a lot more to offer and at a far less cost than maglev. Maglevs, like traditional monorails have a place but not as part as fully integrated transport solution.

[Bill S]

Yes I know how it works, but the magnetic field required to make the train levetate comes at a power consumtion cost, not to mention the massive cost of the track and the maintenance of said track.

It seems not to be that thirsty on power ->

The normal energy consumption of the Transrapid is approximately 50–100 kW per section for levitation and travel, and vehicle control. The drag coefficient of the Transrapid is about 0.26. The air resistance of the vehicle, which has a frontal cross section of 16 m², requires a power consumption, at 400 km/h (111 m/s) cruising speed, given by the following formula:



Power consumption compares favorably with other high-speed rail systems. With an efficiency of 0.85, the power required is about 4.2 MW. Energy consumption for levitation and guidance purposes equates to approximately 1.7 kW/t. As the propulsion system is also capable of functioning in reverse, energy is transferred back into the electricity network during braking. An exception to this is when an emergency stop is performed using the emergency landing skids beneath the vehicle, although this method of bringing the vehicle to a stop is intended only as a last resort should it be impossible or undesirable to keep the vehicle levitating on back-up power to a natural halt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transrapid#Energy_requirements



And it seems that the track can be built for not a huge amount of money as well ->


China aims to limit the cost of future construction extending the maglev line to approximately 200 million yuan (US$24.6 million) per kilometre.[13] These costs compare competitively with airport construction (e.g., Hong Kong Airport cost US$20 billion to build in 1998) and eight-lane Interstate highway systems that cost around US$50 million per mile (US$31 million per kilometre) in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_levitation_train#Economics

[Rhys Xanthis]

Its one of those things that will just get cheaper and cheaper with time, it just depends if Melbourne can hold out without a rail link to make it cheap enough.

The railway in Shanghai rakes in enough money to pay for operating costs, but thats it, there is no way they're going to turn a profit from it.

So for this railway to be a MAGLEV, i think it's going to have to be a wholly Government operated train line, and not sold off to Connex (!!) or anyone else, otherwise the cost of a fare will just go through the roof.

The Governent has to be prepared to lose a large sum of money if it wants a maglev..

[Ash W]

Its one of those things that will just get cheaper and cheaper with time, it just depends if Melbourne can hold out without a rail link to make it cheap enough.

The railway in Shanghai rakes in enough money to pay for operating costs, but thats it, there is no way they're going to turn a profit from it.

So for this railway to be a MAGLEV, i think it's going to have to be a wholly Government operated train line, and not sold off to Connex (!!) or anyone else, otherwise the cost of a fare will just go through the roof.

The Governent has to be prepared to lose a large sum of money if it wants a maglev..

Transrapid seems to be the one who wants it so badly.

[Rhys Xanthis]

Transrapid seems to be the one who wants it so badly.

Sorry, i meant if they wish to go down that path of a maglev.

[Lukas M]

Rumours floating around about Mr Brumby confirming a rail link between Melbourne and Tulla??

Confirm?

[Rhys Xanthis]

Rumours floating around about Mr Brumby confirming a rail link between Melbourne and Tulla??

Confirm?

Nothing big.

The Victorian Premier, John Brumby, says a rail link between Melbourne and the airport will be considered.

Strong growth in international and domestic travel through Melbourne Airport has renewed calls for a rail link.

Airport executives want to start planning for a rail link, in the next three to five years.

Mr Brumby says while the link is not on the agenda at the moment, the idea may be looked at again in the future.

"We looked at that when we came to Government, the numbers weren't right," he said.

"But there is no doubt that as the airport grows and Melbourne grows in the longer term this issue will come back on the agenda."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/21/2309715.htm?section=business

[Lukas M]

If it was Connex run(:eek:), I doubt it would be efficient anyway, but It would be so cheap if it was to be kept in Zone 1/2.
Plus:
-all Vline Travellers get free travel on any Melbourne Public Transport, so you could come from Geelong to the Airport return for only $10.
-It would cost like $2 one way to the Airport on a Two-Hour ticket ex Sthn Cross.

As Long as they dont go off the Idea at Sydney and Charge Megabucks.....

[Michael Mak]

As Long as they dont go off the Idea at Sydney and Charge Megabucks.....

And how likely would that happen? Both Sydney and Brisbane charge ridiculous fees to use the line.

[Lukas M]

Yes, but Melbourne has the Cheapest Public Transport System in the Country.

People would not pay huge $$$ for a train service to the airport if its run by someone like Connex. Mabye they could use regional trains for the route?

[Michael Mak]

Yes, but Melbourne has the Cheapest Public Transport System in the Country.

People would not pay huge $$$ for a train service to the airport if its run by someone like Connex. Mabye they could use regional trains for the route?

I agree with the first part, Melbourne's public transport is indeed cheap. But let's not forget governments have a record of unwillingly spending large amount of money on transport and hence PPP.

Brisbane's AirTrain charges $13.5 one-way to CBD meanwhile Sydney's AirportLink charges $13.4 to CBD. I don't think neither of them worth the money. The service is not brilliant, frequency is far from desirable, trains can be flifhy at times. Don't forget 400 bus runs through Sydney Airport and if you travel light, you can save at least $10. Not to mention Brisbane's AirTrain does not meet early or late flights, which is pretty useless.

Is Connex that bad? Surely it can't get worse than CityRail. I think that a dedicated line and trains might work, like Hong Kong's Airport Express. Otherwise if it shares infastucture and rolling stocks with the rest of the system, it might well become another white elephant.

For it to be successful, the price must be reasonable. Skytrain currently charges $16 one-way between Tullamarine and the city. But the frequency is excellent, gets to the airport in just 20 minutes.

[Raymond Rowe]

The current bus service charges an arm and a leg. last time we had a public transport strike my wife used the airport bus and cost then 18 dollars each way.

[Lukas M]

I agree with the first part, Melbourne's public transport is indeed cheap. But let's not forget governments have a record of unwillingly spending large amount of money on transport and hence PPP.

Brisbane's AirTrain charges $13.5 one-way to CBD meanwhile Sydney's AirportLink charges $13.4 to CBD. I don't think neither of them worth the money. The service is not brilliant, frequency is far from desirable, trains can be flifhy at times. Don't forget 400 bus runs through Sydney Airport and if you travel light, you can save at least $10. Not to mention Brisbane's AirTrain does not meet early or late flights, which is pretty useless.

Is Connex that bad? Surely it can't get worse than CityRail. I think that a dedicated line and trains might work, like Hong Kong's Airport Express. Otherwise if it shares infastucture and rolling stocks with the rest of the system, it might well become another white elephant.

For it to be successful, the price must be reasonable. Skytrain currently charges $16 one-way between Tullamarine and the city. But the frequency is excellent, gets to the airport in just 20 minutes.
100% agree with Micheal.

And yes, Connex is bad. Basically its just "Connex apologizes for the delay", and thats all you hear from them. Plus not to mention the thousands of cancellations.
And you Stand, not sit...
http://www.ptua.org.au/files/2006/1029-crowded-train-big.jpg

[Rhys Xanthis]

Surge in passenger demand prompts call for Airport rail link

MELBOURNE has moved closer to building an airport-city rail link as the number of people using Tullamarine soars.

Premier John Brumby gave his strongest signal yesterday he would back the move if Melbourne airport patronage continued to soar.

"There is no doubt that if the airport grows and Melbourne grows in the longer term this issue will come back on the agenda," he said.

Airport chief executive Chris Woodruff said the surge in Tullamarine's air traffic meant a rail link would be needed sooner than originally thought.

Higher passenger traffic figures released yesterday fuelled fresh speculation on the recurring issue.

"In the future, we will have one," Mr Woodruff said. "The market needs to grow a little bit more, but I think it will be on the agenda in the next three or four or five years."

Earlier this year, Melbourne airport released its 2008 master plan, which also supported plans for a railway line with an underground station.

International and domestic passenger numbers at the airport swelled to 24.3 million during the 2007-08 financial year, an 8 per cent rise.

Passenger numbers were up an average 34,000 a week and international passenger numbers grew 5 per cent, hitting 4.7 million for the first time. Domestic traffic grew by 1.5 million, a 9 per cent increase.

Mr Woodruff said rising traffic would be met by the airport's $330 million expansion plans, which will double international capacity by 2011.

Skybus, which ferries hundreds of passengers to and from Tullamarine every day, said it didn't oppose a rail link, but doubted one was needed.

Skybus marketing manager Max Wood said the company hoped to increase services to almost 200 a day within weeks.

"We are not opposed to a rail network - if it happens, it happens - but it's our business plan to provide a world-class service and we are doing the best we can."

Public Transport Users Association president Daniel Bowen said there was a need for an airport rail link.

"The airport is a major traffic generator, not just for travellers but for the many workers who go to the airport daily and have little option but to drive," he said.

The Government has had plans for a rail link through either Broadmeadows or Albion since 2001.

There is nothing in its contract with CityLink operator Transurban to prevent a passenger line, but if it built a freight line, Transurban may be eligible for compensation.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24057028-2862,00.html

[Marty H]

Like the idea but the line needs to connect through onto the Bendigo line and serve Sunbury, reason why I say this is for the benefit of airport workers in the Sunbury area where ALOT live, lets not only make this about helping passengers get to Melbourne airport but workers also.