Qantas Depressurisation

[Michael Morrison]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24076145-661,00.html

Seems as though it was HKG-MEL... diverted to MNL

[James Herbert]

Thanks for the link Michael. Here is another news report:
http://www.bigpond.com/news/topstories/content/20080725/2314706.asp

Apparently there is a 'gigantic gaping hole' in the aircraft according to one passenger...

[damien b]

Will be interesting to see what the fault was. It reads like it was a emergency exit door?

Airliners.net has a rumour of a 1x1 meter hole in the fuselage. Window maybe?

Good to hear that everyone is okay

[Lukas M]

I assume a 744

"Gaping hole from the wing to the underbody'"
Not sounding good...

[Montague S]

VH-OJK is the offending a/c..

[Bill S]

Looks like it's far more than just a door seal.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/25/2314706.htm?section=justin

[Philip Argy]

"It's about two metres by four metres and there's baggage hanging out so you assume that there's a few bags that may have gone missing."


That sounds to me like a much more serious rupture than might have been assumed at first reports.

Here is the register extract for VH-OJK - it's no spring chicken:



Power Driven Aeroplane with tricycle-retractable landing gear
4 Turbofan engines
Manufacturer: THE BOEING COMPANY
Model: 747-438
Serial number: 25067
Aircraft first registered in Australia: 17 June 1991

[Andrew McLaughlin]

QANTAS FLIGHT DIVERTS TO MANILA

SYDNEY, 25 July: Qantas has confirmed that a B747-400 aircraft operating QF30 from Hong Kong to Melbourne diverted to Manila today following a loss of cabin pressure.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said all 346 passengers and 19 crew disembarked normally and there were no reports of any injuries to passengers or crew.
The flight, which originated in London, landed in Manila at approximately 11.15am local time.
Mr Dixon said the flight crew had performed emergency procedures after oxygen masks were deployed.
He said initial inspections revealed the aircraft had sustained a hole in its fuselage, and it was currently being inspected by engineers.
“The Australian Transportation Safety Bureau (ATSB) and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) have been notified of the incident and Qantas is sending its own engineers to Manila.
“Qantas has provided all passengers with accommodation and a replacement aircraft has been arranged.”

Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication at 3.50pm (Q3792)

[damien b]

Brings back memories of a United Airlines flight 811 that had a cargo door open in flight due to a poor door locking mechanism design. That door on memory opened due to an electrical short, sending several passengers to their deaths.

This sounds like a major incident and lucky that everyone is in one piece.

[Daniel M]

sounding more serious as more details become public. Definately not a "simple" decompression, going by what a witness had to say on channel 9 afternoon news, there is a gaping hole in the side of the plane.

[Craig Lindsay]

just had a look at 7 news and it looks like where the front part of the wing joins the main body of the aircraft has come away

[Michael Morrison]

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24076247-5001021,00.html

Pic above...

[Lukas M]

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6164840,00.jpg

[Adam P.]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44861000/jpg/_44861901_cdc3a227-9e51-48f9-9419-26adfaa24bb7.jpg

Pinched off BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7524733.stm

[Tom PER]

-OJK was the one that was grounded with corrosion issues which delayed it's re-entry into service after it's P/E+ fit-out.

[Lukas M]

[delete] please mod

[James Herbert]

OK then, would seem the passengers reports (read here: media) have this one right. That is one reasonably large hole.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Here's more...

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/07/25/1216492712146.html

[Montague S]

you guys should probably provide links to the info your posting...most of it is coming from other sites, be most helpful for those who also want to read up on what's going on.

[Grant Smith]

you guys should probably provide links to the info your posting...most of it is coming from other sites, be most helpful for those who also want to read up on what's going on.

If I'm not mistaken this is part of the T&C's...

[Anthony J]

I can't say too much but that is the location of the 744's oxygen bottles.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Looking at pics of 744s I've taken before, I can't see a door (to be "blown off") at that location, just the wing root fairing and a NACA-style inlet duct.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p402/Magoodotcom/744ER_QF_VH-OEF_YSSY_16JUL08_AMcL_c.jpg

[Michael Morrison]

I can't say too much but that is the location of the 744's oxygen bottles.

Would the crew/pax have been able to use oxygen if it had been an oxygen explosion?

Reports seem to say they had oxygen during the descent...?

[Andi O]

CH 10 in Melbourne have just stated that it was the same plane as the Pope flew on earlier this week. :rolleyes:
Talk about sensationalist journalism!

[Nick W.]

CH 10 in Melbourne have just stated that it was the same plane as the Pope flew on earlier this week. :rolleyes:
Talk about sensationalist journalism!


What, are they saying they have a suspect?:rolleyes:

[Montague S]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200804689.aspx

be the best source for info as it comes to hand.

[ChrisG.]

Can't be the one the Pope flew back on. It was registered VH-OEE from what I believe. This one is VH-OJK, :rolleyes:.

Chris

[Robert S]

Higher resolution photo:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/25/article-0-0211001500000578-704_468x305_popup.jpg

Interesting that the Qantas timetable currently shows:

Depart: Hong Kong 25 Jul at 09:00
Arrive: Melbourne 25 Jul at 21:45
Stopover: Manila for 1:00 hours

I think it'll be there for more than an hour. :(

[Montague S]

Higher resolution photo:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/25/article-0-0211001500000578-704_468x305_popup.jpg

Interesting that the Qantas timetable currently shows:



I think it'll be there for more than an hour. :(

sending a new a/c for the passengers.

[Peter JB]

I had a laugh at the comment made by one of the passengers

"The hole was on the Driver's side"

:D

[Montague S]

I had a laugh at the comment made by one of the passengers

"The hole was on the Driver's side"

:D

in reality it was...lol, just the 2nd drivers side! :p

[Tom PER]

I love the quote on ch10 News just.

'The engineers union confirms the aircraft has always been serviced in Australia'.......

So never a trip to HAECO, SIAECO or an A check at LAX or with BA at LHR in it's 17 year life!!

[Luke Chittock]

Howdy Mont

sending a new a/c for the passengers.

QF6005 MEL-SYD 1945/2115 turning around as QF29 to ops MEL-MNL-HKG-LHR.

Rgds

Luke/PER

[Robert S]

QF6005 MEL-SYD 1945/2115 turning around as QF29 to ops MEL-MNL-HKG-LHR.

Wouldn't the pax in MNL want to continue on to MEL, where they had been headed?

[Luke Chittock]

UPDATE ON QF30

SYDNEY, 25 July: Qantas has arranged for a replacement aircraft to fly to Manila tonight to collect the passengers from QF30, which was diverted earlier today en route from Hong Kong to Melbourne.

The replacement Qantas B747 aircraft is scheduled to depart Manila shortly after 11pm local time and is due to arrive in Melbourne on Saturday morning.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the airline was sending an investigation team including Qantas engineering personnel to Manila tonight to carry out an investigation.

Mr Dixon praised the pilots and cabin crew for the way they handled the incident.

“This was a highly unusual situation and our crew responded with the professionalism that Qantas is known for,” he said.

NOTE: Reports that the aircraft is the same one that recently transported His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI from Sydney are incorrect.

Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication at 7.10pm (Q3793)

Source: QF Media Release

[Philip Argy]

The ATSB has issued this Media Release:




2008/22

Boeing 747 diversion to Manila

25 July 2008

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau was advised this afternoon of a serious incident involving a Qantas aircraft.
The aircraft, a Boeing 747-400 was operating a scheduled passenger service from Hong Kong to Melbourne Australia. At approximately 29,000 feet, the crew were forced to conduct an emergency descent after a section of the fuselage separated and resulted in a rapid decompression of the cabin. The crew descended the aircraft to 10,000 feet in accordance with established procedures and diverted the aircraft to Manila where a safe landing was carried out. The aircraft taxied to the terminal unassisted, where the passengers and crew disembarked. There were no reported injuries.
Initial information indicates that a section of the fuselage has separated in the area of the forward cargo compartment.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is dispatching a team of four investigators to Manila to assist local authorities with the investigation.

[Neil R.]

In Hong Kong Due out on the QF128 tonight. Just had a phone call from Qantas Reservations – flight has been cancelled. At First they told me mechanical reason, but then when I ask if the aircraft was going to be use to ferry the passengers from Manila, I was told that is the actual reason. Why cant they just say the truth up front. According to Reservations, a group of engenerrs are being sent up from Melbourne tonight (I assume QF to HKG then CX to MNL).
Anyhow – I have been advised I am on a 8.10pm flight Saturday night (Im travelling to Singapore on Monday night so nothing like going home for 1 night). Passengers have been told to check in this evening as per normal, Boarding Passes issues. I hope I can at least keep my suitcase for the night…..

As I hear more I will post an update

Neil

[Andrew McLaughlin]

At First they told me mechanical reason, but then when I ask if the aircraft was going to be use to ferry the passengers from Manila, I was told that is the actual reason. Why cant they just say the truth up front.

You're kidding right? :eek: As if they're going to say "we're pulling your flight because one of our jets shat itself near Manila and we have to get those pax home first"...:rolleyes:

"Mechanical reasons" is not exactly untrue...it's just it's not your aircraft which had the mechanical problem...;)

[Andrew McLaughlin]

UPDATE ON QF30

SYDNEY, 25 July: Qantas has arranged for a replacement aircraft to fly to Manila tonight to collect the passengers from QF30, which was diverted earlier today en route from Hong Kong to Melbourne.
The replacement Qantas B747 aircraft is scheduled to depart Manila shortly after 11pm local time and is due to arrive in Melbourne on Saturday morning.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the airline was sending an investigation team including Qantas engineering personnel to Manila tonight to carry out an investigation.
Mr Dixon praised the pilots and cabin crew for the way they handled the incident. “This was a highly unusual situation and our crew responded with the professionalism that Qantas is known for,” he said.

NOTE: Reports that the aircraft is the same one that recently transported His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI from Sydney are incorrect. (This means YOU Sydney Message Board! :D)

Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication at 7.10pm (Q3793)

[D Chan]

In Hong Kong Due out on the QF128 tonight. Just had a phone call from Qantas Reservations – flight has been cancelled. At First they told me mechanical reason, but then when I ask if the aircraft was going to be use to ferry the passengers from Manila, I was told that is the actual reason. Why cant they just say the truth up front.

well it was due to a 'mechanical reason' - with OJK ;)

[Steve S... 2]

You may find there was a small crack (metal fatigue) that lead to the gaping hole as it tore open.

Yep it was on the drivers side... :D ...that is so silly it is really cute! I like it.

[Joe Frampton]

Found this older quote on airliners.net:
-------------------------------------------
Hey All,

Received this evening from sources serious corrosion issues have been detected on QF's VH-OJK while undergoing maintenance at AVALON. This is the first aircraft to under go cabin reconfiguration with the all NEW Premium Y/C cabin. Sources tell me the launch date has further slipped once to 5th of March operating the QF001 SYD-BKK-LHR route...
Let's keep our finger's crossed and hope -OJK recovers from her plastic surgery!

EK413
-------------------------------------------

I have no intention to speculate, and I'm not qualified either, but would Qantas still do another repair to this a/c - or with that sort of corrosion history already, would this be totally u/s now?

I know VH-OJH is still flying, and that old United Airlines 747 that came apart over the Pacific in 1989 that lost 9 people, but they gave it a new rego and flew it for years longer...

Slightly scary I suppose, but anyway. Roll on fleet replacements!

[Brian Wilkes]

Found this older quote on airliners.net:
-------------------------------------------
Hey All,

Received this evening from sources serious corrosion issues have been detected on QF's VH-OJK while undergoing maintenance at AVALON. This is the first aircraft to under go cabin reconfiguration with the all NEW Premium Y/C cabin. Sources tell me the launch date has further slipped once to 5th of March operating the QF001 SYD-BKK-LHR route...
Let's keep our finger's crossed and hope -OJK recovers from her plastic surgery!

EK413
-------------------------------------------

I have no intention to speculate, and I'm not qualified either, but would Qantas still do another repair to this a/c - or with that sort of corrosion history already, would this be totally u/s now?

I know VH-OJH is still flying, and that old United Airlines 747 that came apart over the Pacific in 1989 that lost 9 people, but they gave it a new rego and flew it for years longer...

Slightly scary I suppose, but anyway. Roll on fleet replacements!

You wont see the aircraft till xmas time, then she will be fixed, a new coat of paint with the new roo and none will be the wiser!

[Philip Argy]

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6164840,00.jpg

Can anyone with the relevant technical knowledge tell us whether the area in the photograph would normally have 'loose' luggage, as distinct from containerised luggage? Whilst I appreciate that the decompression blast would have resulted in disarray in the cargo hold, I can't see evidence of a luggage container in the vicinity of the hole.

Also, what vital services pass through the area? Is the visible cross member structural or functional?

[Montague S]

perhaps the thread title can be adjusted for accuracy?

[Philip Argy]

Mmmm - not sure that 'Qantas Depressurisation' couldn't be interpreted a little too broadly - some mention of an a/c is probably still worthwhile!

Anyhow, this BBC report has a different picture and 3.3 minutes of video from inside the aircraft apparently after it had leveled off at "10002 feet" (according to the inflight display):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7524733.stm

[Brenden S]

The oxygen cylinders are actually forward of the hole (next frame along) if that aircraft had the minimum 3 cylinders installed, however if it had the extra 1, that is exactly where the hole is (according to my Maintenance Manual that I have) The hole however is consistent with a cylinder explosion. That explains the baggage container spillage and the loss of the stringers on the airframe. That area would have very minimal or nil corrosion and the only time that area is actually looked at is at a D check when you inspect the whole fuselage. (There are cargo blankets installed to protect the fuselage) and the whole aircraft is coated in a corrosion preventative called AV15/30 Dinitrol which repels water and saves the aircraft from corrosion (Surface)

As for the other hole in the fuselage that is the number 3 air conditioning duct inlet which cools the bleed air coming from the engines or APU through the process of air conditioning.

You will notice that the 2 wing to body fairings have also become detached. They are fibreglass/composite panels held on my hundreds of screws ( I can tell you its a pain in the rear end to take them off and install them. However they are a cosmetic/aerodynamic fairing.

As for repairs I would say about 3 months max, there is a lot of work to be done, but nothing to major. I would guess Qantas would get Boeing out and they will have their team repair the aircraft. Just splice in some stringers and possibly a frame, pending on the damage. I am sure we will have further photos in the near future with how much damage did occur.

[Brenden S]

Oh and there would have been some wind within the cabin with a sudden loss of pressure.

[Philip Argy]

That's great quality info - thanks, Brenden.

Where in relation to the hole location is the cylinder for inflating the escape slide for the door above?

[Philip Argy]

Consensus so far seems to be that the hole location is close to where oxygen cylinders are stored, and the pictures show panel deformation consistent with an explosion from within the cargo bay at that location.

Is the cylinder mounting area strengthened in any way against the contingency of an exploding cylinder or is the assumption that they don't explode? Perhaps there was some other cargo that exploded? The leading edge of the lost fairing panels seem to have been ripped or torn off behind their point of attachment, whereas the trailing edges seem to have just come clean of their attachment brackets.

All speculation of course, but interesting to see how the technical expertise available on this board can glean so much from the factual information publicly available. Since it appears no-one was injured it seems innocuous enough to indulge ourselves speculating on what caused the incident just to compare our theories with the investigators' report. As long as we make clear we're just testing our technical/detective/predictive talents I hope no-one objects to the exercise.

[Rhys Xanthis]

Apparently someones reading or doing some investigating, perhaps they will blow this out of proportion like everything else!

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24079965-29277,00.html

edit: Someone on another forum suggested qantas somehow intentionally made the hole in the fuselage to justify off-shore maintenance:rolleyes::rolleyes:

edit2: but wait, now this is a conspiracy so Geoff Dixon gets a pay increase:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Joe Frampton]

SMH online...
There's a large hole in the plane: pilot
http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/theres-a-large-hole-in-the-plane-pilot/2008/07/25/1216492732878.html

... is now also quoting "EK413" as per my earlier post...

Concerns about the plane's safety yesterday were first raised on an online engineers' forum in February. One user, identifying themselves only as "EK413" wrote: "Received this evening from sources serious corrosion issues have been detected on QF's VH-OJK while undergoing maintenance at Avalon.

"Sources tell me the launch date has further slipped once to 5th of March … Let's keep our finger's crossed and hope -OJK recovers from her plastic surgery."

They either went to Airliners.net for that, or they came here... I wonder?

[Scott Loveday]

Five minutes of video footage from inside the aircraft is up on the ABC website.

[damien b]

Not being familiar with the 747 oxygen system, but an oxygen cylinder explosion from the ones i have seen footage of, would cause more damage.

A RAAF P-3 suffered an oxygen cylinder explosion whilst undergoing maintenance. The cylinder punched a hole in the fuselage and continued on for a good 50m having also punched a hole in a hanger door before hitting a brick wall. The aircraft caught fire and suffered extensive damage and was written off as a result.

The USN and USAF have also suffered some oxygen fires/explosions on aircraft and all have been lost.

An oxygen cylinder discharging at a rapid rate would create excesive heat, and i would have thought ignited. If not through the heat alone, other materials in the area like grease would have assisted combustion.

We are all speculating at present but the damage certainly looks like either a minor structural failure or a minor explosion of some sort with no fire resulting.

[Pieter S]

=They either went to Airliners.net for that, or they came here... I wonder?
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3862862/?threadid=3862862&searchid=3862862&s=VH-OJK#ID3862862 ... now we just sit back and wait for the sensationalism ... :D

[Jamie D]

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3862862/?threadid=3862862&searchid=3862862&s=VH-OJK#ID3862862 ... now we just sit back and wait for the sensationalism ... :D


Sensationalism on the Airliners.net forum? Whatever do you mean? The next thing you'll be saying is that most of them dont know half the stuff they are talking about!! LOL

[Rhys Xanthis]

Youve got to love news corp's crap.

"THE Qantas plane forced to make an emergency landing in the Philippines after a massive hole opened up in its fuselage had been plagued by a history of corrosion."

"Aviation sources said aircraft engineers had noted a "lot" of corrosion during the refit, the report said."

So, i take from that that news corp's aviation sources are most likely airliners.net or pprune or here even...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: They leave a lot to be desired for a media agency dont they?

EDIT: If antone really wants a laugh, read the comments here: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24078132-5007133,00.html

here is a taste..."The blue van in the Telstra ad seems to be in better shape than Qantas planes."...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

EDIT2: I just HAD to come back and post THIS one..."I STOPPED flying Qantas years ago, because if (sic) their appalling safety record."

[Sarah C]

Rhys - some of those "comments" are both amusing and uninformed. But that is what you expect particularly on that site.

It is the "news outlets" that annoy me. Reading all of the reports today, there are only a few facts mentioned, the rest is speculation and sensational reporting. News outlets don't seem to answer to anyone in terms of reporting stories factually. Let the investigations take place, report the facts and don't speculate on it when they know nothing about it.

In saying that, I am more likely to get an accurate insight from posters on this board than watching/reading a news report.

[Raymond Rowe]

How does everyone here know it was not corrosion or a fatigue crack. Lots of arm chair experts who have NEVER been near a repair or seen how a repair is carried out.Show the proof. It is only going to be a matter of time before we see a big smoking hole in the ground in this country. When it does happen the company whgo ever it is might as well close its doors.The last major accident involving a LARGE aircraft was in 1968 at WINTON involving VH-RMI a Vickers Vicount.


Sure there has been minor airlines but not a major carrier with a hull loss.

[Sarah C]

Channel 10's report trotted out another union member with the "outsourcing loses control over your maintaince" line. Predictable........yet its last major check was at AVV.

[Kelvin R]

I thought AVV was outsourced, or at least outside of Union control? Is that not correct?

[Montague S]

Channel 10's report trotted out another union member with the "outsourcing loses control over your maintaince" line. Predictable........yet its last major check was at AVV.

I thought AVV was outsourced?

[Lukas M]

Does anyone think it will be sent to the scrapyard??
Considering all the Reno's that it has undertaken, and a few A/C arriving later this year(A332,A380). Not to mention all the bad press about this 744(The rego has been released!)

I am guessing it will be just patched, unless there is somewhat further problems that are found.
Would you fly OJK anymore:mad:?

[Daniel M]

OJH overan the runway in Bangkok a few years ago, and sustained serious damage, so severe that it was financially more viable to write the plane off, yet Qantas still repaired it and it is still in service today. Why would this one be any different Lukas?

[Montague S]

well OJH gets around ok and it suffered much worse than this bird, is the corrosion a fact or just speculation?

[damien b]

update from news.com.au.


AIR safety experts have begun investigating whether an explosion inside luggage or a broken panel punched a hole in a Qantas airliner, forcing it to make an emergency landing in Manila.

Experts were focusing on the two theories as they investigated the dramatic rupture on the Boeing 747's fuselage as it flew from Hong Kong to Melbourne yesterday with more than 300 passengers and crew on board, said a source close to the investigation.

"They were very lucky," the source said.

"While it is too early to say what actually caused the hole, we will be looking at two possibilities... something exploded in one of the bags or a panel came loose on the fuselage."

The source said the explosion might have been caused by a pressurised container inside a piece of luggage and that a bomb was unlikely.

The aircraft was at 29,000 feet when the crew was forced to make an emergency descent after a section of the fuselage separated and resulted in rapid decompression of the cabin.

Captain John Bartels made a safe emergency landing at Manila airport, and no one was injured in the incident, which one passenger described as "absolutely terrifying".

An urgent investigation is underway into what ripped a three-metre hole in the fuselage near the right wing.

Investigators from Qantas and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau have arrived in the Philippines to inspect the plane, officials said.

The local Air Transport Office is also looking into the incident, Manila international airport general manager Alfonso Cusi said.

Mr Cusi said he did not believe an explosion caused the incident.

"Our air safety people are looking into it and from the looks of it, it doesn't look like an explosion.

"We still think it is a technical problem on the plane," he said.

The Qantas office in Manila declined to comment on the investigation, referring all inquiries to its office in Sydney.

The Philippine Daily Inquirer said Captain Bartels had told Philippine aviation authorities he started dumping fuel on his way to Manila for the emergency landing.

The deputy manager for operations at Manila airport, Octavio Lina, was also quoted by the paper today as saying that "the flooring gave way, exposing some of the cargo beneath".

"The ceiling around the area also collapsed," he said.

Qantas Airways boasts of its safety record, having never lost a jet to an accident.

Passengers have praised the crew for their safe handling of yesterday's incident.

[Brenden S]

There is NO requirement to inspect that area for a cabin regonfig. The corrosion would have been a floor beam or galley area. It has been repaired or replaced as they can not sign out a aircraft that has corrosion. Its a common problem around wet area's on any aircraft. As I stated just about the whole aircraft is covered in Dinitrol which helps prevent corrosion. The location of the hole is consistent with a oxygen cylinder rupturing. The reason why it didn't explode is that it was venting into the atmosphere and there was no grease/oil to start a fire. Also when the oxygen vents the other cylinders become cool and not hot. Don't Listen to the media, they have no idea at all with what is going on and Qantas themselves are not going to say what happened just yet. As for repairs it can be repaired. Its minor compared to some of the damage the aircraft get from ramp rash.

[Michael Mak]

well OJH gets around ok and it suffered much worse than this bird, is the corrosion a fact or just speculation?
OJH was also newer (9 years old) when the accident occurred.

[damien b]

Also when the oxygen vents the other cylinders become cool and not hot.

:o My bad on that one, i meant to say the cylinder becomes cool but the surrounding environment can become oxygen enriched, creating a hazard. Too early in the morning.

If the area has no grease or oil then yeah, no explosion and what you describe Brendan is certainly viable. Extremely lucky however if that is the case.

[Ash W]

Slightly OT, but does anyone know if Captain John Bartels is JB who posts or used to post on the aus.aviation usenet group?

Just saw the video on the ABC news website, it all seemed pretty calm at that point, which was at 10,000 feet. The person taking the video needs talking to though, recording as they were coming into land!

[Andrew M]

A caution once again to be careful what you write on any forum, you may end up being mentioned on the main stream media! I would assume EK413 is regretting those comments about now, unless they are 100% true!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/theres-a-large-hole-in-the-plane-pilot/2008/07/25/1216492732878.html

Concerns about the plane's safety yesterday were first raised on an online engineers' forum in February. One user, identifying themselves only as "EK413" wrote: "Received this evening from sources serious corrosion issues have been detected on QF's VH-OJK while undergoing maintenance at Avalon.

"Sources tell me the launch date has further slipped once to 5th of March … Let's keep our finger's crossed and hope -OJK recovers from her plastic surgery."

[Montague S]

A caution once again to be careful what you write on any forum, you may end up being mentioned on the main stream media! I would assume EK413 is regretting those comments about now, unless they are 100% true!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/theres-a-large-hole-in-the-plane-pilot/2008/07/25/1216492732878.html

Concerns about the plane's safety yesterday were first raised on an online engineers' forum in February. One user, identifying themselves only as "EK413" wrote: "Received this evening from sources serious corrosion issues have been detected on QF's VH-OJK while undergoing maintenance at Avalon.

"Sources tell me the launch date has further slipped once to 5th of March … Let's keep our finger's crossed and hope -OJK recovers from her plastic surgery."

I'm sure the media might be reading here...so lets see how long they keep their quote up when they discover this.

Username: EK413
Real Name: Withheld
E-mail: Withheld
Gender: Male
Age: 13-15

[Philip Argy]

Whilst there is no time during an emergency to tell pax everything that is happening, the interviews with passengers on tonight's news reveal that much of the fear they experienced was caused by the sudden descent. Since that is standard practice following sudden depressurisation, I suggest it would make sense to include a few extra words in the safety demo at the beginning of every flight, along the lines of "in the event of a loss of cabin pressure oxygen masks will drop from the overhead compartment and the aircraft may descend urgently to an altitude where oxygen is no longer required ...

At least it will make the rapid descent corroborative of normality instead of a foreboding of crashing as a large number of passengers have reported.

Anyone on this board involved in the scripting of these announcements? I'm sure Angela Catterns would love to update her dulcet voiceovers!

[Daniel M]

Whilst there is no time during an emergency to tell pax everything that is happening, the interviews with passengers on tonight's news reveal that much of the fear they experienced was caused by the sudden descent. Since that is standard practice following sudden depressurisation, I suggest it would make sense to include a few extra words in the safety demo at the beginning of every flight, along the lines of "in the event of a loss of cabin pressure oxygen masks will drop from the overhead compartment and the aircraft may descend urgently to an altitude where oxygen is no longer required ...

At least it will make the rapid descent corroborative of normality instead of a foreboding of crashing as a large number of passengers have reported.

Anyone on this board involved in the scripting of these announcements? I'm sure Angela Catterns would love to update her dulcet voiceovers!

I agree. Can imagine the thoughts on the minds of those un-aviation-trained people, hearing a loud explosion and then a violent descent shortly thereafter...1 thing springs to mind for the uneducated, and its not nice...

[Daniel M]

Slightly OT, but does anyone know if Captain John Bartels is JB who posts or used to post on the aus.aviation usenet group?

Just saw the video on the ABC news website, it all seemed pretty calm at that point, which was at 10,000 feet. The person taking the video needs talking to though, recording as they were coming into land!

Can confirm this, was the same JB, although the group is pretty much dead these days and JB hasn't posted in a long while.

[Marty H]

OJH overan the runway in Bangkok a few years ago, and sustained serious damage, so severe that it was financially more viable to write the plane off, yet Qantas still repaired it and it is still in service today. Why would this one be any different Lukas?

I had a QF B744 FO at my house recently, and I asked him about VH-OJH, he said that the aircraft isnt right and should never have been fixed, he also said the aircraft was fixed to 'save face' for QF (nil hull loss), it is appropriately named 'the golf buggy' and that is also generally its call sign.

As you say though the aircraft wont be written off and the damage is repairable, Lukas you cant pick and coose what rego aircraft you fly on so, unless you were prepared to forefeit your fare if you seen you were supposed to fly in OJK then you have more money than sense, the aircraft will be repaired properley, to QF, Boeing and CASA standards.

[Daniel M]

I had a QF B744 FO at my house recently, and I asked him about VH-OJH, he said that the aircraft isnt right and should never have been fixed, he also said the aircraft was fixed to 'save face' for QF (nil hull loss), it is appropriately named 'the golf buggy' and that is also generally its call sign.

As you say though the aircraft wont be written off and the damage is repairable, Lukas you cant pick and coose what rego aircraft you fly on so, unless you were prepared to forefeit your fare if you seen you were supposed to fly in OJK then you have more money than sense, the aircraft will be repaired properley, to QF, Boeing and CASA standards.

In saying that, I haven't heard of anything serious happening to OJH since being repaired, almost 9 years ago now? No parts falling off or anything else?

[James K]

OJH overan the runway in Bangkok a few years ago, and sustained serious damage, so severe that it was financially more viable to write the plane off, yet Qantas still repaired it and it is still in service today. Why would this one be any different Lukas?

Can you provide proof of that Daniel?

[Daniel M]

Can you provide proof of that Daniel?

Proof of what?

[Andrew M]

I'm sure the media might be reading here...so lets see how long they keep their quote up when they discover this.

:eek: A 13-15 year old!

[Philip Argy]

This extract is from today's The Age (with my emphasis):


Oxygen masks failed: passengers

A TERRIFYING picture emerged yesterday of frantic passengers struggling to use faulty oxygen masks as Qantas flight QF30 dropped 19,000 feet when an explosion ripped a hole in the plane's fuselage.

Passengers arriving at Melbourne International Airport told of desperate attempts to put their passports in their pockets in case the plane crashed, of children turning blue as their mothers frantically tried to fit their oxygen masks, and of 10 minutes of sheer terror as the plane dived.

As passengers were reunited with loved ones, aviation experts offered several theories about possible causes of the mid-air explosion, including:
* Oxygen cylinders rupturing.
* Corrosion and weakening of the plane's aluminium skin, making it susceptible to bursting under the enormous pressure of cruising at altitude.
* A deliberate or accidental explosion caused by something in a passenger's luggage.

However, a source close to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority said exploding oxygen cylinders were the likely cause of the rupture, and would be the main focus of the investigation, as they were stored in the exact location of the explosion and there were no signs of fire.

St Kilda architect David Saunders described the moments after the explosion as utter panic.
"The oxygen masks were f----d," Mr Saunders told The Sunday Age at Melbourne International Airport, after an emotional reunion with his mother and sister.
"The elastic was so old that it had deteriorated … I was trying to get my passport, and every time I got my passport the mask fell off and I started to pass out."
In some parts of the cabin, the masks didn't drop down at all: "A guy just went into a panic and smashed the whole panel off the ceiling to get to the mask.
"The kids were screaming and flailing … Their cheeks and lips were turning blue from lack of oxygen."
Another passenger, Paula Madejon, said she had to share her mask with two other people, and, in the row behind her, nobody had a mask.
It took about 10 minutes for the jumbo jet carrying 346 passengers and 19 crew to descend to where the air was breathable.


If the optional fourth oxygen cylinder ruptured, it could explain both the damage to the a/c as well as the fact that some passengers report no masks falling and/or no oxygen available from their mask. Are the oxygen
cylinders connected in series or in parallel? In other words, is the supply 'pooled' from multiple cylinders or do individual cylinders supply particular seat rows or mask sets?

And in this article, on The Sydney Morning Herald website this morning, we are now told that the auto pilot and "instrument lights" failed - I haven't seen that reported anywhere else:


QANTAS pilot John Bartels landed his stricken passenger jet manually after the auto-pilot and instrument lights were rendered useless by an onboard explosion.

[Marty H]

In saying that, I haven't heard of anything serious happening to OJH since being repaired, almost 9 years ago now? No parts falling off or anything else?

No nothing has happened, but I guess its like after you crash a car its not the same afterwards.

[Matt R]

Slightly OT, but does anyone know if Captain John Bartels is JB who posts or used to post on the aus.aviation usenet group?

Yep. It's him (http://groups.google.com.au/group/aus.aviation/browse_thread/thread/05db0d06bf8e49e3#).

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24083087-661,00.html

[Montague S]

(CNN) -- The Australian air safety agency is investigating Saturday the emergency landing of a Qantas Boeing 747 in the Philippines after a hole in the fuselage made the plane lose cabin pressure.

Officials from two U.S. transportation agencies said initial findings indicate that no act of terrorism was involved.

According to early reports, a section of the fuselage separated in the forward cargo compartment, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau said in a written statement.

"Our preliminary checks on this indicate that there was no corrosion anywhere near where this hole occurred in the aircraft," Geoff Dixon, Qantas' CEO, said in Sydney.

Video of the plane after it landed Friday showed a large hole where the leading edge of the wing attaches to the fuselage.

The section of the fuselage separated at about 29,000 feet, and the cabin began to rapidly decompress, the safety agency said in the statement released Friday.

The crew brought the plane down to 10,000 feet and diverted the aircraft to Manila International Airport, where it landed safely about 11:15 a.m. (11:15 p.m. ET Thursday).

The airline said it received no reports of any injuries among the 346 passengers and 19 crew members.

Dixon called the incident a "hugely serious issue" and one that investigators would sort out. "We can't speculate on what happened."

Oxygen masks were deployed during the emergency. Passengers said their ears popped because of the plane's rapid descent to a lower altitude.

"There was an almighty crack," one passenger said. "We dropped a bit in the air, but other than that, it was fine."

"There was a big bang," said another. "I knew there was a hole somewhere, but I didn't know what was going on."

The Boeing 747-400 flight originated in London. It had just taken off from Hong Kong for Melbourne, Australia, when it was forced to land.

A U.S. Transportation Security Administration official, who asked not to be identified because his agency is not leading the probe into the incident, said a preliminary investigation found no connection to terrorism.

The damage appears to be related to a mechanical issue, based on examination of the aircraft on the ground, the official said.

The official said a TSA representative based in Manila is assisting in the investigation.

The National Transportation Safety Board also is sending investigators, and an NTSB spokesman said the agency also does not suspect terrorism.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/26/jet.emergency/index.html?iref=topnews

[Montague S]

This extract is from today's The Age (with my emphasis):


did the masks really fail? or was it down to the passengers failing to operate them correctly?

[Nigel C]

Slightly OT, but does anyone know if Captain John Bartels is JB who posts or used to post on the aus.aviation usenet group?


Back when I used to post on aus.aviation, I'm pretty sure JB was a B767 driver then.
As always (well almost always...;)) I stand to be corrected.

[James K]

Proof of what?

Proof that it was financially more viable to write the acft off than fix it to avoid a hull loss. Just that it seems this idea gets so much airplay whenever there is an incident with QF. I was just wondering if you had seen the documentation that would relate to this decision.

Just asking as it goes against some documents I saw at work after OJH had been repaired and re-entered service.

[Graeme M]

QANTAS ...... The 'Holy' airline


How Ironic...hehehe:p

[Rhys Xanthis]

did the masks really fail? or was it down to the passengers failing to operate them correctly?

I heard the passengers complained that the elastic on some masks was so worn out they were impossible to use.

And in some areas of the a/c, the masks failed to drop altogether, and some said they dropped and wouldnt work.

The latter could be incorrect passenger use (not pulling the masks firmly down).

The other 2 however, im not sure. Its possible that they didn't work correctly - and if the elastic is worn out, it should be checked by QF on the rest of the 744 fleet, although my understanding is they check the oxygen system fairly frequently? Do they check the masks themselves and the elastic on them during these checks?

Rhys

[Tim C]

And in some areas of the a/c, the masks failed to drop altogether, and some said they dropped and wouldnt work.



"Allegedly" is the key word you should be using mate. The newspaper is not gospel.

[Rhys Xanthis]

"Allegedly" is the key word you should be using mate. The newspaper is not gospel.

Should have made it more clear, i said thats what the passengers said, i by no means think its 100% fact.

[Geoff W]

From "The Age"

http://www.theage.com.au/national/qantas-ordered-to-inspect-all-oxygen-bottles-on-flights-20080727-3lll.html

Regards,

Geoff

[D Chan]

About some masks not falling - if you have read the 'Air Disaster' series by Macarthur Job - in a number of the accidents the masks on the a/c involved in accidents also failed to deploy or did not work in some sections of the cabin (I think from Air Disaster 1). That's why Flight Attendant training comes into play and more importantly we all need to remember that they are not only there for the cabin service.

[Anthony J]

You'd have to imagine that is because the aircraft has just shot an oxygen bottle through the side some oxygen systems may be rendered unserviceable!

[damien b]

You'd have to imagine that is the aircraft has just shot an oxygen bottle through the side some oxygen systems may be rendered unserviceable!

The oxygen bottles in that area are apparently emergency units for the flight deck crew from what i know of the 747. Brendan - is that correct?

[Brenden S]

Oxygen installation on OJK
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/747-3.jpg

Oxygen distribution system to passengers
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/747-2.jpg

There is no check valve on the cylinders so if one was to leak/rupture all of the oxygen would be vented.

Here is the station diagram and also a photo of the fwd caro.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/747-4.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/D_check4.jpg


I hope this explains everything for everyone.

[Nigel C]

Is it possible for that equipment to be damaged when loading/unloading the aircraft? Or is there enough protection for the bottles and associated hardware?

TIA

[Lukas M]

If you want a closer look:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/2700358169_5b1977f6b7_o.jpg

[Carsten Bauer]

Same thing happened on Apollo 13 when they stirred the O2 tanks :)

[Marty H]

Is it possible for that equipment to be damaged when loading/unloading the aircraft? Or is there enough protection for the bottles and associated hardware?

TIA


Be all located behind a bulkhead, wouldnt all be open an exposed like in the picture.

[Jason Le]

Link to a CASA article on cabin crew procedures for decompression.

Good read which explains what happens during such an event.

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2004/apr/34-35.pdf

[Nick W.]

Fantastic, Brendan! Good work!

[Brenden S]

No worries Nack W...

ATSB was on the local news tonight and they confirmed a Oxygen cylinder was missing.

[Rhys Xanthis]

No worries Nack W...

ATSB was on the local news tonight and they confirmed a Oxygen cylinder was missing.

Read that too:)

Fantastic work with the pictures and diagrams too:)

[damien b]

Good work Brendan, thanks

[Bernie P]

Hi Brendan,
When looking at the photo of the O2 cylinders, is that looking from the aft to the forward section? Or is it looking towards the aft of OJK?
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/D_check4.jpg
Thus the O2 to the right would be the missing cylinder, or is it to the left??
Great photo by the way...

[Brenden S]

Those big cylinders to the back is actually the potable water on a 744
The Potable water on e 744ER is situated where the Oxy is normally on a 744 and the oxy is placed between the cargo roof and the passenger floor. The oxygen cylinders are actually off to the left in the image (it was the best I had)

[Bernie P]

Those big cylinders to the back is actually the potable water on a 744
The Potable water on e 744ER is situated where the Oxy is normally on a 744 and the oxy is placed between the cargo roof and the passenger floor. The oxygen cylinders are actually off to the left in the image (it was the best I had)

Thanks Brendan... You're a 'wealth' of knowledge!!! :D :D :D

[Philip Argy]

Just released:



2008/24

Qantas Boeing 747-400 depressurisation and diversion to Manila on 25 July 2008

28 July 2008


The ATSB was advised on Friday 25 July of a serious occurrence involving a Qantas aircraft.
The aircraft, a Boeing 747-400 was operating a scheduled passenger service from Hong Kong to Melbourne Australia. At approximately 29,000 feet, the crew were forced to conduct an emergency descent after a section of the fuselage separated and resulted in a rapid decompression of the cabin. The crew descended the aircraft to 10,000 feet in accordance with established procedures and diverted the aircraft to Manila where a safe landing was carried out. The aircraft taxied to the terminal unassisted, where the passengers and crew disembarked. There were no reported injuries.
The ATSB is leading this safety investigation with the assistance of a number of other organisations and agencies, including the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines, The National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Administration of the USA, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority of Australia and Qantas and Boeing.
The ongoing investigation has confirmed that there is one unaccounted for oxygen cylinder from the bank of cylinders that are located in the area of the breech. There are 13 oxygen cylinders in the bank that are responsible for supplying oxygen to the passenger masks and cabin crew.
Also recovered are a number of parts of components including part of a valve in the vicinity of the breech. However, it is yet to be determined whether these components are part of the aircraft system.
A number of passengers have reported that some of the oxygen masks appeared not to function correctly when they deployed from the overhead modules. The ATSB intends to examine the oxygen system including the oxygen masks.
The ATSB is also intending to interview the aircraft crew including the cabin crew and make contact with all passengers on the flight. All passengers will be surveyed, while those that had reported problems with mask deployment will be interviewed.
The passenger survey should be available in about two weeks.
The ATSB would like to request that any passengers that experienced issues during the flight, or those who photographed or videoed the incident contacts us via email at atsbinfo@atsb.gov.au (atsbinfo@atsb.gov.au).
The ATSB would also like to encourage passengers to write down their recollection of events that occurred. This will aid them with the completion of the passenger survey.
The aircraft flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder have arrived in Australia. The ATSB will download the recorders at its Canberra facilities over the next few days.
The ATSB will also be examining maintenance records for the aircraft. This will include any airworthiness directives or alert bulletins that may have been issued by the regulators or the manufacturers.

[Paul McFarlane]

Just wanna ask what may seem a silly question..

How do they go about repairing the aircraft? Do they send a team from Oz over to Manila and rent a hanger for a while?

Just curious...

Paul M

[Raymond Rowe]

Just wanna ask what may seem a silly question..

How do they go about repairing the aircraft? Do they send a team from Oz over to Manila and rent a hanger for a while?

Just curious...

Paul M


Word has it that the Boeing Crash crew will be doing the repairs.

[Rhys Xanthis]

Word has it that the Boeing Crash crew will be doing the repairs.

I'd be surprised if otherwise.

I read a comment from someone about the issue.

"Blame Qantas for something which has never happened before – or do we look at Qantas, one of the world's leading airlines, as being the real cause of a day or two which most Aussies would prefer to forget?"

which they replied with:

"Blame Qantas for a measurable and objective increase in adverse maintenance related incidents."

I thought it was an interesting reply...anyone care to comment? I personally believe Qantas has pretty high maintenance standards and i would probably never have any reservations about stepping foot onto a Qantas jet ever in my life (however, the future hasn't happened yet...).

[Rhys Xanthis]

Hopefully this reassures the general flying public...

really the last thing QF needs right now is a mass exodus of passengers who refuse to fly blaming "safety standards"...

[Will T]

The discussion re Brenden's intellectual property has been moved to its own thread in 'Technical Discussion', to keep this one on topic.

[damien b]

Oxygen installation on OJK
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/747-3.jpg

Oxygen distribution system to passengers
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/747-2.jpg

There is no check valve on the cylinders so if one was to leak/rupture all of the oxygen would be vented.

Here is the station diagram and also a photo of the fwd caro.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/747-4.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/dc3engineer/D_check4.jpg


I hope this explains everything for everyone.

Q for you Brendan. I happen to train Avionic AME's and my understanding of aircraft oxygen systems is that the flight crew and passenger systems are isolated from each other to prevent cross contamination and also the scenerio that you metion in loosing presure from one system, thus taking out the entire aircraft supply. Are the flight crew and pax systems sepreate, or as you mention are they combined together? Curious.

[Steve B.]

Brenden,

Aren't those 4 large green containers potable water tanks? Certainly don't look like oxygen tanks.

Regards
Steve.

[Philip Argy]

See Brenden's clarification yesterday, Steve:
http://yssyforum.net/board/showpost.php?p=9370&postcount=107

[Montague S]

interesting new report from 9msn..

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=605382

Will or AJ able to expand on this?

The cockpit voice recorder of the Qantas jumbo jet forced to make an emergency landing in the Philippines did not capture the explosion that tore a hole in its fuselage, an investigator says.

It is a setback for Australia's Air Transport Safety Bureau, whose team is combing the Boeing 747 plane to pinpoint the cause of the blast - thought to have been caused by an oxygen bottle, lead investigator Neville Blyth said.

He told reporters in Manila that the voice recorder, which records crew conversations, radio traffic and cockpit sounds, had been downloaded by the ATSB's specialists in Canberra.

"Unfortunately, the standard two-hour recording which works on an endless-loop principle did not contain the depressurisation event.

"The cockpit voice recording commenced after the descent and diversion to Manila, so the event itself appears to have been overwritten."

Experts from the ATSB had hoped to analyse

acoustic data from the recording to help in the investigation, he said.

"There's a surprisingly large amount of information that could be obtained from acoustic spectrum analysis, if indeed we had a recording of the event."

It would also have helped investigators determine whether the flight crew handled the emergency well, Blyth added.

Experts are also examining the separate flight data recorder that logged 25 hours of flight data, and results could come within a few days, Blyth said.

He said it now appeared very likely that the rupture had been caused by an exploding oxygen cylinder, one in a row of six that is used for emergencies.

"The explanation regarding the loss of the cylinder is the most probable," he said.

Investigators have found the valve and handle from the missing cylinder but the bottle itself remains unaccounted for.

Blyth said the hole "is immediately adjacent" to where the cylinders were located.

The Qantas jet was flying from Hong Kong to

Melbourne last Friday when the explosion led to a sudden loss of air pressure in the cabin.

The plane, which had originated in London and was carrying 365 passengers and crew, plunged 6,000 metres (20,000 feet) before stabilising, then made an emergency landing in Manila.

Blyth and other officials say they are unaware of any previous cases in which an oxygen tank caused an airline accident. Qantas has ordered all oxygen tanks on its fleet of 747-400s to be inspected.

Qantas suffered another safety scare on Monday when a landing gear door failed to close, prompting a flight to return to Adelaide shortly after takeoff.

The airline insisted the plane was never in danger, but passengers already jittery over the Philippines incident described panic inside the Melbourne-bound plane after the pilot announced the problem.

[Brenden S]

Crew and Pax systems are totally separate, however they are installed in the same area. I showed the picture of the fwd cargo hold as It was the best I could to. The frames to the left is where the oxy cylinders are.

[Philip Argy]

I have seen a number of ATSB Reports that note that the CVR was left running after a major incident and therefore wiped out all record of the incident they were investigating, but usually this relates to post landing where I gather the protocol is to turn off the CVR to preserve the previous two hours rather than capture ground staff chatter.

If more than 2 hours elapses between incident and shutdown of the a/c post landing, I don't see how the incident can be preserved with existing CVR processes. It shouldn't be hard these days to increase the capacity of a CVR, or to make provision for CVR history to be copied manually to other onboard storage media after any major incident so that, short of loss of a/c, more than 2 hours of CV is available.

[Brenden S]

Easy, make it a procedure after the aircraft has landed to pull the CB for the CVR then problem solved.

[damien b]

Crew and Pax systems are totally separate, however they are installed in the same area. I showed the picture of the fwd cargo hold as It was the best I could to. The frames to the left is where the oxy cylinders are.

Thanks, thought so. Just when you said one oxy bottle discharging could allow all the others to discharge as well i was a bit confused. I do uunderstand that without check valves, if one bottle fails, the others in the line will discharge to 'space' as well.

[damien b]

I have seen a number of ATSB Reports that note that the CVR was left running after a major incident and therefore wiped out all record of the incident they were investigating, but usually this relates to post landing where I gather the protocol is to turn off the CVR to preserve the previous two hours rather than capture ground staff chatter.

If more than 2 hours elapses between incident and shutdown of the a/c post landing, I don't see how the incident can be preserved with existing CVR processes. It shouldn't be hard these days to increase the capacity of a CVR, or to make provision for CVR history to be copied manually to other onboard storage media after any major incident so that, short of loss of a/c, more than 2 hours of CV is available.

The CVR uses a metalic tape that is reasonably resistant to impact and severe heat damage, which is why its used. For space reasons, 2 hours is regarded as a maximum time required for recording purposes. It is felt that 2 hours is enough to capture the incident and allow the aircraft to either crash or land and still have the data on the CVR. The legal minimum is i believe 30 minutes.

As for transfering the data to another medium, that will incure a cost that most airlines will not wear unless its mandatory. Larger aircraft maybe able to handle the weight penalty and have room, but smaller aircraft may not have the capability. I am unaware of what technology could be used to transfer data from the metalic tape to a data storage device either - i dare say it can be done however.

There was talk many years ago of only having the CVR activated inflight via touch down micros, however some incidents start whilst on the ground so that idea was squashed quickly.


Also, the data storage device would need to be impact and heat resistant, similar to the FDR.

[Josh F]

I thought only 30 minutes were recorded and that the tape is long gone with the introduction of chips to record to?

[Philip Argy]

I'm not sure what is physically in the CVR these days but you'd expect it to be solid state of some kind as long as it can survive the trauma of a crash. But that doesn't mean it isn't still set up only to store a rolling two hour record. What I was suggesting is that instead of overwriting there should be an 'incident switch' which will dump the recording to supplementary media after two hours so that the historical CVR record is preserved.

In this day and age when I can store 60 hours of HD television on a hard drive that fits in the palm of my hand, and I can buy ruggedised noteboks that will survie a lot of trauma, I'd have thought it possible to design somewhat more useful CVR/FDR devices. And how long before the "v" becomes "video" rather than "voice"?

[Andrew McLaughlin]

I'm not sure what is physically in the CVR these days but you'd expect it to be solid state of some kind as long as it can survive the trauma of a crash. But that doesn't mean it isn't still set up only to store a rolling two hour record. What I was suggesting is that instead of overwriting there should be an 'incident switch' which will dump the recording to supplementary media after two hours so that the historical CVR record is preserved.

In this day and age when I can store 60 hours of HD television on a hard drive that fits in the palm of my hand, and I can buy ruggedised noteboks that will survie a lot of trauma, I'd have thought it possible to design somewhat more useful CVR/FDR devices. And how long before the "v" becomes "video" rather than "voice"?

Yeah, but don't forget this aircraft is 17 years old. Any new design such as a hard drive which can record 60 hours (or whatever) would have to be integrated with avionics/FMS which are 20+ years old in design.

Perhaps we'll see the kind of stuff you mention on the 787/A350.

[damien b]

from a NTSB web site

Specifications

Flight Data Recorder
Time recorded 25 hour continuous
Number of parameters 18 - 1000+
Impact tolerance 3400Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance 1100 degC / 30 min
Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation



Cockpit Voice Recorder
Time recorded 30 min continuous, 2 hours for solid state digital units
Number of channels 4
Impact tolerance 3400Gs / 6.5 ms
Fire resistance 1100 degC / 30 min
Water pressure resistance submerged 20,000 ft
Underwater locator beacon 37.5 KHz; battery has shelf life of 6 years or more, with 30-day operation capability upon activation


So yes, they use solid state devices and yes they probably can build storage devices - if you wish to design, patent and sell you'd make the money. I doubt that your standard storage device can handle that type of trauma.

[Philip Argy]

Here is what the ATSB announced at its Media Conference at 2pm this afternoon:

Investigation into Boeing 747- 400 depressurisation and diversion to Manila, Philippines

30 July 2008


Introduction

As you are aware the ATSB is leading this safety investigation with the assistance of a number of other organisations and agencies, including the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines, the National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Administration of the USA, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority of Australia, Qantas and Boeing.
Flight Data Recorder

The data from the flight data recorder has been recovered and downloaded. Initial analysis of the data indicates that the aircraft decent from the decompression event at 29,000 feet to the altitude of 10,000 feet, where no masks are required, took about five and half minutes, with an average descent rate of about 4,000 fpm. The ATSB is still verifying and analysing the data on the recorder.
Door

The ATSB can confirm that it appears that part of an oxygen cylinder and valve entered the passenger cabin and impacted the number 2 right door frame handle, thereby moving the handle part way towards the open position. However, the door handle mechanism has been sheared as it is designed to do if an attempt is made to open the door in flight, so the position of the door handle is not representative of the position of the door lock mechanism or the security of the door. The investigation team have confirmed that the door latches were still engaged. Additionally the door is of the plug-type that first needs to be pulled into the cabin, rotated 90 degrees then pushed out to open. So there was never any danger of the door opening.
Cabin Masks

The investigation team have surveyed the passenger cabin including the oxygen masks. The team found that most of the oxygen masks had deployed correctly from the passenger modules and had been pulled to activate the flow of oxygen to the mask. According to the airline, there were 346 passengers on board. Inspection by the ATSB shows that 484 masks had deployed, that is, dropped from the ceiling. Of those, 418 had been activated by pulling on the mask to activate the flow of oxygen. Only a small number of masks appeared to have had the elastic retaining strap adjusted by the passengers. It also appears that a small number of masks did not deploy from the passenger modules. Investigations into this aspect of the accident are continuing.
Interviews are continuing with the cabin crew in relation to this issue. Additionally, the ATSB is preparing a passenger survey that will be sent to all passengers to gather information about their experience of the event. The ATSB also plans to interview those passengers that encountered specific problems either with the masks or the decompression event.
Oxygen System

The investigation team is still examining the oxygen system, including liaising with the manufacturer to determine if the flow of oxygen was adequate for the five and a half minute descent to 10,000 feet, where the masks were no longer required.
ILS

The team have confirmed that the aircrafts three Instrument Landing Systems (ILS) and the anti-skid system were not available for the arrival and landing at Manila. However, evidence to date indicates that all the aircrafts main systems, including engines and hydraulics were functioning normally. The approach to Manila airport was conducted in visual conditions. It should be noted that other pilot navigation instruments (VOR and NDB) were still available to the crew should the conditions not have been visual. Additionally, Air Traffic Control could have provided radar assistance if the crew had required it.
Flight Crew

From the evidence gathered to date it appears that the flight crew have responded to and managed the emergency situation extremely well. It is apparent that they followed the procedures they have trained for in simulators, which ensured the best possible outcome for the aircraft, the passengers and crew.
Notify ATSB

A reminder that the ATSB requests that any passengers that experienced issues during the flight, or those who photographed or videoed the incident, contacts us via email atsbinfo@atsb.gov.au (atsbinfo@atsb.gov.au) , telephone: 1800 020 616, or facsimile 02 6247 3117.
The investigation will need time to review and analyse the evidence collected to date and to plan and undertake further evidence gathering and analysis. It is difficult to say how long an investigation such as this will take. However, a preliminary factual report will be released by the ATSB within about 30 days and, should the need for urgent safety action by any agency be identified, the ATSB will immediately notify the relevant agencies who are best placed to address the issue. At this point, unless there is any significant development in the investigation, further media conferences are not anticipated and further information will be released as part of the ATSBs preliminary report.

[Rhys Xanthis]

You have to love the main story on news.com.au...

"Qantas landing systems failed"
"Stricken Qantas jet / AFP

INVESTIGATORS say an on-board explosion left a Qantas pilot to land a stricken passenger jet without instrument landing systems."

And of course, right at the end of the article: "The approach to Manila airport was conducted in visual conditions, and it should be noted that the pilot had other navigation instruments available (if visibility had been a problem)."

Dont you just love how they drum up all of this to make it look so much worse than it actually is?

[Josh F]

Qantas landing systems failed

July 30, 2008 04:26pm

A QANTAS pilot brought a passenger plane into Manila airport without instrument landing systems after the aircraft was damaged by an exploding exygen bottle, investigators say.

Passengers and crew all escaped injury when the Melbourne-bound Boeing 747-400 made an emergency landing in the Philippines after a mid-air explosion tore a hole in its fuselage last Friday.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) said today a piece of the oxygen tank entered the passenger cabin after smashing through the cabin floor and hit an emergency door handle, moving it part way into the open position.

ATSB spokesman Julian Walsh said passengers were not in danger, because the position of the handle did not mean the security of the door was at risk.

He told reporters the investigation team had confirmed the door latches were still engaged, and the design of the door meant there was never any danger of the door opening.

"The team have confirmed that the aircraft's three instrument landing systems and the anti-skid system were not available for the arrival at Manila," Mr Walsh said.

"However, evidence indicates that all the aircraft's main systems, including engines and hydraulics, were functioning normally.

"The approach to Manila airport was conducted in visual conditions, and it should be noted that the pilot had other navigation instruments available (if visibility had been a problem)."

The ATSB said some passengers' oxygen masks had failed to deploy correctly.

"I don't know the exact number, but we're talking less than 10 as I understand it,'' Mr Walsh said.

"But that's subject to verification and confirmation.''

Some passengers have told of their panic after they were unable to access the oxygen masks as the drama unfolded.

The ATSB said it would interview Qantas cabin crew and passengers who encountered problems with the masks.

Mr Walsh said the investigation team was still examining the oxygen system to determine if the flow was adequate for the five-and-a-half minute descent from 29,000 feet to 10,000 feet, where the masks were no longer required.

It was still unclear as to what caused the oxygen bottle, about the size of a scuba tank, to explode.

The bottle, which was in a bank of bottles that provided oxygen to passengers, pierced the floor near one of the major exit doors, Mr Walsh said.

He said there was a crew seat in the vicinity of where the bottle entered the cabin but that no crew member was in the seat at the time.

"Whether the bottle itself has actually exploded or whether the valve has failed, or whether that has been a secondary event as a result of something else hitting the bottle, it is obviously very important for us to look at.

"But clearly the (oxygen bottle) has travelled vertically through the floor of the aircraft, glanced with the door handle and impacted with the ceiling of the cabin.

"I think it's fair to say that for something to penetrate the floor and to move the handle, that component was travelling at some significant speed.''

Mr Walsh said it appeared that the flight crew had managed the situation "extremely well''.

"Certainly, our review of all the information that's available to us to date shows that the crew responded as you would expect them to do.

"It would appear to us that they've done very close to a text-book response.''

Mr Walsh said the investigation team would now need time to analyse the data that had been collected, adding that a preliminary report should be available within about 30 days.

News.com

[Grant Smith]

Dont you just love how they drum up all of this to make it look so much worse than it actually is?

You have a lot to learn about the media industry Rhys and how it works...

[Rhys Xanthis]

You have a lot to learn about the media industry Rhys and how it works...

I know how it works, i just hate it so much:mad::mad::mad:

[Grant Smith]

I know how it works, i just hate it so much:mad::mad::mad:

Then don't read newspapers or watch the news... It's not rocket science, but then again you know how it works so none of this should be news to you...

:rolleyes:

[Rhys Xanthis]

Then don't read newspapers or watch the news... It's not rocket science, but then again you know how it works so none of this should be news to you...

:rolleyes:

Well im trying to not listen to the news for a few weeks until this thing dies down and the "new" incidents that pop up through various media outlets also stop...

[Adam P.]

Rhys, Rhys, Rhys,

You do have a lot to learn... like, don't argue with Granny on a night shift!

He's been doing it for a long time and he's very good at it.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Rhys, Rhys, Rhys,

You do have a lot to learn... like, don't argue with Granny on a night shift!

He's been doing it for a long time and he's very good at it.

Plus, Granny's a cranky little b@$tard at the best of times, let alone on the night shift!

[Nigel C]

And don't ever, and I mean ever, send a smart ***** SMS to him in the wee small hours...

:D

[Grant Smith]

That's right! You've all been warned...













Now how 'bout those oxygen tanks...

[Philip Argy]

Who on the board is a shooter? Someone with a bit of ballistics expertise might be able to tell us what trajectory the regulator might have taken to get from the oxygen tank through the cabin floor to the no 2 door handle and up to the ceiling of the passenger cabin.

Assuming that the valve gear or cylinder itself was not defective or corroded, which of course hasn't been ruled out, my theory is that the cylinder and/or the valve assembly was somehow subjected to impact either during loading/unloading in Hong Kong, or by shifting cargo during or shortly after departure from Hong Kong. I understand that load packing doesn't really allow cargo room to move around, so that just leaves impact damage during loading/unloading or some kind of physical defect in the cylinder or valve assembly.

Although the ATSB mentioned that the valve had ricocheted, the energy dissipation involved in that process suggests to me that it didn't ricochet much before penetrating the cabin floor. To my mind the key piece of forensic evidence, in the absence of the missing components which are assumed to be at the bottom of the South China Sea, is the angle of approach that the valve struck the cabin floor, which could reveal the extent to which the normally upright cylinder had shifted, and therefore potentially point to what could cause that.

Now, just in case any visitor to the Board thinks I am qualified to express this PERSONAL OPINION, let me just say that it's self indulgent speculation that is not for wider publication (unless I turn out to be correct!). If members of this Board can't robustly discuss this kind of technical puzzle amongst themsleves for fear of it ending up in the press, then some of the fun of the 'hobby' goes away.

[damien b]

Didin't the CASA directive to inspect the bottles in question mention that they had a possible manufacturing defect which may cause the bottles to 'explode' under pressure? That may explain how the bottle exploded without any impact from cargo or other devices.

[Philip Argy]

I'm not aware of a CASA directive along those lines, Damien. I'm aware of the old FAA directive about the heat treatment of the bracket that holds the crew backup oxygen:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/64E479C5774B841786257433004F6434?OpenDocument

But they also said:



There are about 83 airplanes of the affected design in the worldwide fleet. This AD affects about 15 airplanes of U.S. registry. The required inspection will take about 1 work hour per airplane, at an average labor rate of $80 per work hour. Based on these figures, the estimated cost of this AD for U.S. operators is $1,200, or $80 per airplane.

[damien b]

I'm not aware of a CASA directive along those lines, Damien. I'm aware of the old FAA directive about the heat treatment of the bracket that holds the crew backup oxygen:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/64E479C5774B841786257433004F6434?OpenDocument

But they also said:

I stand corrected - i knew it was something like that. A bracket failure could have lead to the incident as indicated in the alert. I guess we'll see in the ATSB report.

[Ryan N]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/qf30-blast-new-photos/2008/08/01/1217097515197.html

[Philip Argy]

Wow! The valve assembly has come through the floor and whacked the door handle with such force that it seems to have moved it from the 9 o'clock to the 2 o'clock position - at least that's what photo 5 seems to depict. Thankfully the shearing mechanism was working as it looks to me like the door lock pins would otherwise have been substantially withdrawn.

It also looks as though the valve head trajectory was almost entirely vertical, suggesting that physical cylinder failure rather than impact-damage triggered failure could well have been the cause. Definitely awaiting ATSB findings with great interest.

Haven't seen any discussion here re the loss of 3 x ILS and anti-skid braking systems. I remember from the ATSB report on the Bangkok accident that there was a recommendation that redundant/backup systems should NOT be co-located with primary systems, so we might see something similar in this report.

[Matthew Chisholm]

pls delete

[Philip Argy]

On 25 July 2008, at 0922 local time, a Boeing Company 747-438 aircraft (registered VH-OJK) with 365 persons on board, departed Hong Kong International airport on a scheduled passenger transport flight to Melbourne, Australia. Approximately 55 minutes into the flight, while the aircraft was cruising at 29,000 ft (FL290), a loud bang was heard by passengers and crew, followed by the rapid depressurisation of the cabin. Oxygen masks dropped from the overhead compartments shortly afterward, and it was reported that most passengers and crew commenced using the masks. After donning their own oxygen masks, the flight crew carried out the 'cabin altitude non-normal' checklist items and commenced a descent to a lower altitude, where supplemental breathing oxygen would no longer be required. A MAYDAY distress radio call was made on the regional air traffic control frequency. After levelling the aircraft at 10,000 ft, the flight crew diverted to Ninoy Aquino International Airport, Manila, where an uneventful visual approach and landing was made. The aircraft was stopped on the runway for an external inspection, before being towed to the terminal for passenger disembarkation.
Subsequent inspection of the aircraft by the operator's personnel and ATSB investigators, revealed an inverted T-shaped rupture in the lower right side of the fuselage, immediately beneath the wing leading edge-to-fuselage transition fairing (which had been lost during the event). Items of wrapped cargo were observed partially protruding from the rupture, which extended for approximately 2 metres along the length of the aircraft and 1.5 metres vertically.
After clearing the baggage and cargo from the forward aircraft hold, it was evident that one passenger oxygen cylinder (number-4 from a bank of seven cylinders along the right side of the cargo hold) had sustained a sudden failure and forceful discharge of its pressurised contents into the aircraft hold, rupturing the fuselage in the vicinity of the wing-fuselage leading edge fairing. The cylinder had been propelled upward by the force of the discharge, puncturing the cabin floor and entering the cabin adjacent to the second main cabin door. The cylinder had subsequently impacted the door frame, door handle and overhead panelling, before falling to the cabin floor and exiting the aircraft through the ruptured fuselage.
The investigation is continuing.



The full text has just been posted at: http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/pdf/AO2008053_Prelim.pdf

[chrisb]

Wow. Qantas is seriously lucky that no one was hit by that cylinder as it went through the cabin.

If nothing else, I recommend people download that PDF and look at some of the pictures and also the 'flight path' of the cylinder on Page 29/30.

I guess we'll all want to know who installed that cylinder in June 08... :)

[Philip Argy]

The extent of the damage, and the trajectory of the missing oxy cylinder, is just mind boggling when you contemplate the physical forces that must have been at work, as is the preliminary conclusion that the entire cylinder (along with the missing oxy bottle from just inside the R2 door) actually retraced its path from the ceiling over the R2 door back through the small hole it had made in the floor before exiting the aircraft through the rupture it had caused in the fuselage.

Compliments to the ATSB for a terrific preliminary report chock full of objective and carefully presented factual material. The final report promises to deal with a number of aspects that the observed facts compel as candidates for further investigation.

[chrisb]

BTW: does anyone know what the aircraft is up to at the moment? I assume it's still in Manila?

[Philip Argy]

The movement of the no 4 oxy cylinder just fascinates me. From what I can glean from the ATSB preliminary report, and combining it with a bit of pure speculation, the base of the cylinder has failed and, together with part of its support bracket, blasted the hole in the fuselage. Meanwhile, the rest of the cylinder has been propelled upwards like a launched rocket with the top valve gear helping to pierce the cabin floor. Continuing upward it has taken out the small hand held oxy bottle and its bracket adjacent the second main cabin door and struck the leading edge of the door handle with enough force to bend it inwards as it forced the handle to rotate clockwise through 120 degree, shearing the handle shaft gear in the process, until the now bent handle tip impacted the door lining which arrested its rotation. The impact with the door handle has started the cylinder rotating about its horizontal axis until, now travelling upside down, it hits the base of the overhead compartment and punches a circular hole in it thorugh which it travels until it hits the cabin ceiling where it finally loses its upward momentum, falls back to the floor and is sucked through the hole it punched in the floor and out through the ruptured fuselage!

Sorry for the self indulgent excursis.

[Mark B]

BTW: does anyone know what the aircraft is up to at the moment? I assume it's still in Manila?

According to QF, it will be repaired in Manila by Lufthansa Technik. See toward the end of the media release http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2008/aug08/3812

[damien b]

Having read the ATSB report i am curious as to why the cylinder failed (as i guess is the ATSB). The crew and passengers seemed to be rather lucky considering the systems lost/damaged in the incident and that no one was injured by the cylinder.

The pictures do show rather well the damage inflicted by the cylinder and the tratectory of the cylinder. Its also intersting to see the FDR data showing the rapid descent of the aircraft. 19,000ft in just over 6 minutes.

The report also highlights that no combustion occured and that the upper cyclinder restraints where still intact, but bent. Also a portable oxygen cylinder is missing as well from the aircraft.

[Nigel C]

This from www.news.com.au
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,26058,24261265-5014090,00.html

Qantas backs oxygen blast report

August 29, 2008 02:07pm

QANTAS has backed the findings of a preliminary safety probe into the emergency landing of one of its jets in Manila, that found an exploding oxygen cylinder blew a hole in the fuselage.

The tank failed and burst, blasting through the cabin floor from a storage area between business and economy class seats on a Hong Kong to Melbourne flight last month, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) found.

"The preliminary report was a factual account of the incident and investigation to date," said Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon in a statement.

"Our own investigations agree with the ATSB's preliminary conclusions."

Qantas had completed an inspection of the oxygen systems across its B747-400 fleet on August 1, which confirmed there were no safety issues, Mr Dixon said.

The aircraft involved in the Manila incident was repairable at a cost of less than $10 million and would be back in service in November 2008.

Despite the seriousness of the incident, Qantas remained proud of its excellent safety reputation, Mr Dixon said.



Repairable at a cost of less than $10 million? It looks like Qantas got very lucky on all fronts with this one!

[Philip Argy]

Putting aside manufacturing defects, what are the causes of pressure cylinder failure?

Stress fractures caused by corrosion or impact seem to have been the most common in non aviation contexts. Interestingly, the #4 oxygen cylinder involved in the QF30 incident had only been installed in the aircraft on 14 June 2008, the day after it had completed an 'A' maintenance check. What is intriguing is that only two of the thirteen oxy cylinders were replaced following the A check, and the failure cylinder was more than five years older than the #2 cylinder that was replaced at the same time (but by no means the oldest cylinder on the a/c - one was nearly 20 years old):



Table 2: Details of the passenger oxygen cylinders fitted to VH-OJK at the
time of the occurrence

Location Serial No. Manufactured date Fitted to aircraft date

Right side #1 240341 Feb 92 16 Jun 07
Right side #2 ST30395 Oct 01 14 Jun 08
Right side #3 ST20539 Apr 01 19 Jan 07
Right side #4 535657 Feb 96 14 Jun 08
Right side #5 666845 Mar 99 01 Mar 06
Right side #6 240293 Dec 91 07 Jan 08
Right side #7 239949 Nov 91 07 Jan 08
R Fwd O/H 883198 May 89 07 Jan 08
L Fwd O/H 686764 May 98 01 Sep 06
R Mid O/H 805949 Sep 04 17 Nov 07
L Mid O/H 686716 Jun 99 28 Sep 05
R Aft O/H 679454 Apr 99 07 Jan 08
L Aft O/H 71505 Jan 91 22 Jul 07



My theory is that the failure cylinder, and possibly both of the two most recently fitted cylinders, were dropped or subjected to some other kind of stress-inducing impact before being fitted to the aircraft on 14 June. Metallurgical examination of the #2 cylinder might show evidence of this.

We aren't told where the A check was carried out or by whom, nor how the oxy cylinders in question were transported. That's where I'd be taking a closer look, and quickly (before any evidence is lost).

[damien b]

We aren't told where the A check was carried out or by whom, nor how the oxy cylinders in question were transported. That's where I'd be taking a closer look, and quickly (before any evidence is lost).[/SIZE][/FONT] [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE]

All i can say is that has been looked at by the ATSB and Qantas, and people involved questioned.

The cylinders are normaly changed on a dedicated maintenance cycle for scheduled servicing.

[Tim Bowrey]

This happened a while ago but a photo has popped up of OJK still in Manila.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6368493

[Philip Argy]

It would be wonderful if anyone had photos of OJK during and/or post repair

[Kieran Wells]

looks like at this stage it just has a big band aid and bandage on..

Also looks quite dirty towards the rear of the fuselage...

[Chris W]

Also looks quite dirty towards the rear of the fuselage...

Air in Manila would do that to you.

[Brenden S]

Nice to see they take care of the engines and have put covers on them, but what about the pitot tubes?

[Raymond Rowe]

Putting aside manufacturing defects, what are the causes of pressure cylinder failure?

Stress fractures caused by corrosion or impact seem to have been the most common in non aviation contexts. Interestingly, the #4 oxygen cylinder involved in the QF30 incident had only been installed in the aircraft on 14 June 2008, the day after it had completed an 'A' maintenance check. What is intriguing is that only two of the thirteen oxy cylinders were replaced following the A check, and the failure cylinder was more than five years older than the #2 cylinder that was replaced at the same time (but by no means the oldest cylinder on the a/c - one was nearly 20 years old):







Over pressurisation will also cause a cylinder to fail.

[Joseph Saragozza.]

after she is repaired would she receive the new paint scheme?

[Raymond Rowe]

after she is repaired would she receive the new paint scheme?



Probably not.Will be paint touch up around the belly area.

[Joseph Saragozza.]

ohh okay.
but would you naturally think they would take full advantage of her absence from service?
also in the picture the half the 'Q' has been cut off so i am guessing if not repainted the will just replace the lettering or just the letter Q.

[Ash W]

ohh okay.
but would you naturally think they would take full advantage of her absence from service?
also in the picture the half the 'Q' has been cut off so i am guessing if not repainted the will just replace the lettering or just the letter Q.

If you have a close look at the picture you will see that the 'repair' is just white coloured 100 mile an hour tape. No doubt this has been done to keep the elements out of the plane. So when the repair is actually done the Q should be fine.

Also note Ray said probably not, not no. They may well decide she is due for a repaint, or just wait until it's time was due anyway.

[Michael Rychter]

I would have thought that the regulatory authorities would have finished with the on site investigations and the aircraft would have been released to the repairers by now.

On that subject, anyone on the board able to comment:

When will the repairs start?

Why the delay?

Who is doing the repairs?

Is it able to fly to a repair site given that structural damage is minimal?

[Ash W]

They may well be waiting for parts before they can 'start' the repair proper. Doubt they would fly it anywhere in that state.

[Andrew P]

30 Oct update

VH-OJK still sitting outside the Lufthansa Technik hanger in MNL.

Banjo

[Nigel C]

Any idea on how the repairs are going, Banjo? Pics perhaps?

[Tracey S]

VH-OJK is on her way home.
Being ferried MNL - AVV, arrives 8.40pm this evening.

[Malcolm Parker]

Hopefully in a repaired state ready for service.

[Joseph Saragozza.]

i drove past Avalon yesterday and i didnt see it out side and all the hanger doors were closed so i presume its in the hangers.

is there any update when it returns back into service?

[Jamie D]

have they just flown it in bandaged up? what altitude etc would they need to be at for this flight? could they pressurise with the bandage on?

[Steve B.]

According to the PIC who brought the aircraft back to OZ, (the same one who was in command when the oxy bottle let loose), FL430. I believe the structual and exterior work was completed before the flight and the remaining non structual, interior and cosmetic work will be completed at Avalon.

[Montague S]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24669577-661,00.html

OJK clipped another a/c at Avalon whilst being towed.

[Tracey S]

Hi Steve,
Just a small point.
Although the Captain and FO (John and Bernie) who were flying VH-OJK when the incident occurred in July were certainly on board the ferry flight from MNL - AVV, John was not the PIC. The PIC of the ferry flight was the Captain who performed the post-repair assessment flight of VH-OJK in MNL.

~ Tracey

[Steve B.]

Hi Tracey,

You are quite right, my apologies.

John did say in another forum,

"I parked it at Avalon last night. Minor stuff to be done, and it should be back in service in a week or so."

I assumed from that statement that he had flown the aircraft back from Manila. My bad.

Unfortunately his words about the timing of the return to service were not so prophetic.

Regards
Stephen

[Philip Argy]

My earlier comment in this thread:

Whilst there is no time during an emergency to tell pax everything that is happening, the interviews with passengers on tonight's news reveal that much of the fear they experienced was caused by the sudden descent. Since that is standard practice following sudden depressurisation, I suggest it would make sense to include a few extra words in the safety demo at the beginning of every flight, along the lines of "in the event of a loss of cabin pressure oxygen masks will drop from the overhead compartment and the aircraft may descend urgently to an altitude where oxygen is no longer required ...

At least it will make the rapid descent corroborative of normality instead of a foreboding of crashing as a large number of passengers have reported.

Anyone on this board involved in the scripting of these announcements? I'm sure Angela Catterns would love to update her dulcet voiceovers!

The ATSB has today issued this public advice re depressurisation events and the use of oxygen masks:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2008/pdf/AR2008075.pdf

I hope the airlines work it into their passenger literature, especially the warning re the oxygen paradox effect that can make people feel unwell after donning their mask.

[Dan Hammond]

Does anyone know if OJK is back in service?

Thanks in advance.

[Grahame Hutchison]

This was the last ACARS I have seen which may have been positioning to Avalon or a test flight.

ACARS mode: 1 Aircraft reg: VH-OJK
Message label: ** Block id: @ Msg no: 008f
Flight id: QF6016 [] [Qantas]
Message content:-
SBS-1 Callsign: QFA6016
----------------------------------------------------------[ [B]10/11/2008 09:12 ]-

[Dan Hammond]

I think it was about a week after that ACARS message that it hit the other aircraft. But i could be wrong.

[Grahame Hutchison]

It was hit by VH-OJH on the 18th November.

[Mick B]

OJM was actually the one that hit OJK.

[Grahame Hutchison]

Correction, VH-OJM was the guilty part.
Cheers Mick.

[Philip Argy]

ATSB has today issued this advisory:


Aircraft Depressurisation: Cabin crew information bulletin



Summary

This information bulletin is designed for cabin crew and will supplement your airline's cabin crew emergency procedures manual and should enhance your knowledge about what can occur during an aircraft depressurisation.
Download Complete Document AR2008075_2:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2009/pdf/AR2008075_2.pdf

[Philip Argy]

Here's the latest report just released:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/pdf/AO2008053_Interim.pdf

[Dan Hammond]

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2009/mar09/3898
Sydney, 06 March 2009

Qantas today welcomed the latest interim reports issued by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) into the QF30 and QF72 inflight incidents in 2008.

The reports indicate that the ATSB's investigations continue to focus on:
* the failure of one of 13 passenger emergency oxygen system cylinders on the B747-400 operated QF30 Hong-Kong-Melbourne service and subsequent diversion to Manila on 25 July 2008; and
* a fault with the operation of one of three Air Data Inertial Reference Units (ADIRUs) on the A330-300 operated QF72 Singapore-Perth service and subsequent diversion to Learmonth on 7 October 2008.

Qantas Chief Executive Officer, Mr Alan Joyce, said the factual accounts of the incidents and investigations to date continued to support the findings of Qantas' own investigations.

"These two incidents involved extremely rare, if not unique, circumstances that were beyond Qantas' control," Mr Joyce said.

"Both reports detail the facts that have been gathered by the Bureau to date, including information provided by Qantas from our own investigations.

"We, and all airlines operating these aircraft types, are keen to fully understand what contributed to these highly unusual incidents.

"Importantly, both reports confirm that Qantas has responded appropriately to all safety actions required by the ATSB."

Mr Joyce said Qantas remained totally focused on safety.

"Our approach to safety has not changed in any way and is based on our commitment to the highest standards and practices," he said.

"Safety remains our highest priority and we will continue to work closely with the ATSB, CASA and manufacturers on these ongoing investigations."

[Philip Argy]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/748064/ao2008053_2.pdf

Here is what the ATSB has to say about its second interim factual report:


The ATSB’s second interim factual report on this accident, released today, indicates that to date there is no evidence of systemic safety problems with oxygen bottles of the type involved in the accident. Various tests have not been able to replicate the cylinder failure that initiated the accident.
The report provides details of the wide-ranging and ongoing technical examination of five oxygen cylinders obtained by the ATSB from the same manufacturing lot as the failed cylinder. The original cylinder was lost in the South China Sea in the course of the accident.
Analysis of the factual information and findings as to the factors that contributed to the accident remain the subject of ongoing work. Details will be included in the final report of the investigation.
To date, all pressure tests of the cylinders met or exceeded the relevant safety specifications, with recorded rupture pressures being over twice the maximum working pressure of the cylinders.
Other work is being carried out to determine the minimum size of mechanical flaws that could result in cylinder failure in service. The ongoing ATSB investigation will supplement that work with a program of rupture tests on cylinders that have had various sized ‘artificial’ flaws machined into the shell.
The ATSB expects to conclude the data gathering and analysis aspects of the investigation in early 2010, with a final report to follow.


The report also includes comments on some crew and passenger issues that were not in the previous report, including the consequences of the failure of the pre-recorded automatic passenger advisory message to don masks.

[Philip Argy]

The ATSB has just announced that its final report on this incident will be released at a press conference on Monday.

[Robert S]

I imagine Qantas is delighted with this timing. :rolleyes:

[Philip Argy]

Here's what the ATSB media release says:


The rupture of an oxygen cylinder on board a Qantas Boeing 747 was a unique event and highly unlikely to happen again according to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB).
On 25 July 2008, an oxygen cylinder ruptured in the plane's forward cargo hold about an hour into a flight from Hong Kong to Melbourne. Part of the ruptured cylinder punctured the fuselage wall and damaged the cabin, causing the plane to rapidly depressurise. The plane then made an emergency descent and landed at the nearest suitable airport in Manila, Philippines. None of the 369 passengers and crew on board were injured.
ATSB Chief Commissioner, Mr Martin Dolan, said investigators conducted a comprehensive investigation to determine the cause of the rupture, despite missing the key piece of evidence.
'This was an unusual and challenging investigation as the key piece of evidence, the ruptured cylinder, was ejected from the plane and is at the bottom of the South China Sea,' Mr Dolan said.
'Since we didn't have the ruptured cylinder, we exhaustively tested and evaluated identical cylinders, including cylinders from the same manufacturing batch. Through these tests we did not identify any aspect of the cylinder design or manufacture that could pose a threat.
'As well, the published maintenance procedures were found to be valid and thorough, and inspection regimes appropriate. The investigation also found no record of any other related instances of aviation oxygen cylinder rupture.
'Given the widespread and long-term use of this type of cylinder, it was clear that this occurrence was a unique event.
'In light of the investigation's findings, it is our view that the risk of a similar rupture and consequent aircraft damage remains extremely remote."
The ATSB investigation report, released today, also provides safety advice for operators and organisations involved with aviation oxygen cylinders and operators of pressurised passenger transport aircraft. This advice included improving aircraft passenger briefings to ensure passengers are able to readily use emergency oxygen supply when required. This has already been addressed by Qantas.


The final report is well worth a read, not least because of the painstaking detail of the damage that was caused. The 14.9 MB final report is here: http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2409291/ao2008053.pdf

I'm certainly looking forward to a similar level of detail when we get the ATSB's report on Nancy-Bird Walton's no.2 engine incident - their interim report on that is scheduled for 3 December.

[Philip Argy]

The ATSB has also produced two information publications as a consequence of this event:


The ATSB research and analysis section has published two reports intended as
information bulletins for passengers and cabin crew of pressurised aircraft.
• Staying Safe During an Aircraft Depressurisation - Passenger information
bulletin. Aviation research and analysis report AR-2008-075(1)
• Aircraft Depressurisation – Cabin crew information bulletin
Aviation research and analysis report AR-2008-075(2)
The bulletins have been written to provide passengers and cabin crew with an
improved understanding of the potential effects of a depressurisation event on the
individual, and to provide advice regarding actions that can minimise the risk of
injury.
The information bulletins are available for download from the ATSB website at the
following addresses:

Passenger bulletin: http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2008/AR2008075.aspx

Cabin crew bulletin: http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2009/AR2008075_2.aspx