Australian Aviation Green Paper released

[Will T]

'Aviation Policy Green Paper - Flight Path to the Future - December 2008' downloadable from the Department of Infrastructure website at:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/index.aspx

[Matt_L]

Interesting stuff.
I will paraphrase just a part concering the establishment of a second airport in Sydney The construction of an airport at Badgerys Creek is no longer an option.

With Badgerys Creek gone, one would have to wonder the viability of remaining sites such as Richmond, Camden etc which after a quick look at this paper are not immediately clear.

[Radi K]

Interview with RAAA CEO on lateline biz tonight.

Should be on the website in a few hours: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/business/

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Interesting that the government is totally discounting the possibility of lifting YSSY's curfew or increasing the movements cap. Isn't the 'green paper' supposed to be a discussion paper where all possibilities are explored? Apparently not...

[Nigel C]

Without doing any research, I'd be surprised if nearly all of the surrounding areas of YSSY aren't safe Labor Party held seats. Got to keep the party faithful happy!

[D Chan]

I think Richmond is a very good choice in the interim if somehow, they could relocate the RAAF base

[Andrew McLaughlin]

I think Richmond is a very good choice in the interim if somehow, they could relocate the RAAF base

1) - why is it "a very good choice"?
2) - why would they need to "relocate the RAAF base"?

[Nigel C]

3) - runway length could be an issue
4) - the locals don't mind having an RAAF base there because it drives the local economy quite effectively. I can't see the same type of benefit being seen by the community if it becomes a commercially based port, therefore leading to some rejection of the idea
5) - fog

[Joseph D]

1) - why is it "a very good choice"?
2) - why would they need to "relocate the RAAF base"?

In response to Number 1, I think it is a good choice because
a) it is in the Sydney Basin
b) there are already heavy aircraft coming and going (hercules aircraft are as loud as anything).
c) area is full of bogans living in housing commission units
d) area is sparsely populated.

I think the RAAF base can stay.

[Nigel C]

In response to Number 1, I think it is a good choice because
a) it is in the Sydney Basin
b) there are already heavy aircraft coming and going (hercules aircraft are as loud as anything).
c) area is full of bogans living in housing commission units
d) area is sparsely populated.

I think the RAAF base can stay.

In response to that argument I think it's a poor choice because

a) it's at the edge of the Sydney basin and the end of the rail link, and trains are very infrequent. The road system has only been improved to cater for traffic requirements 15 years ago and still struggles daily with the increase in population.
b) re-read my point 4 in my previous post, and no, I don't believe hercs are that loud in the overall scheme of things
c) having lived in Richmond for a few years, I tend to disagree. Windsor and Bligh Park is predominantly free standing privately owned housing. Richmond is much the same and Hobartville is full of privately owned ex-Defence housing. There really aren't that many units out there. And no, I'm not a bogan.
d) not any more. The city is growing quite quickly in that direction.

I agree that the RAAF base should stay.

[Jethro H]

Being a Green Paper, it's all about saying... nothing. Have to wait for the Master Plan due out next year.

Interesting quote:
Sydney Airport Corporation Limited argued that there was no need for a second Sydney airport, expressing confidence that capacity could be well-managed for the foreseeable future.
One would imagine that would only be SAC keeping an eye on the value of their company. If a second international airport was built, the value of SAC would fall.

Canberra Airport was mentioned, but would that be practical to be 'second' to Sydney?!

As for using Richmond, it depends what they want a second airport in Sydney for. 7000 feet and foggy half of winter limits it's options.

The railway was planned to be duplicated, but canned by the State due to money. Trains are infrequent now because there are no PAX to catch them anyway.

There was a pathway planned for the "Castlereagh Motorway" which would head in that direction from the M7, but RTA now have deleted those plans.

To use Richmond, where would the commercial terminal(s) go?!
You would have to downsize the RAAF dramatically.

To compare to Newcastle is impossible. Newcastle is a "regional" airport. The plans are looking for a second airport for the countries largest and busiest city. The plan would be at a guess looking at 20+ gates, any smaller and you might as well just have one airport.

The current flight line at Richmond is taken up by C130s, then visiting Orions and overseas military, there is not much room left.

[Nigel C]

Does anyone know if the option of Madden's Plains on top of the escarpment between Wollongong and Appin has been considered?

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Does anyone know if the option of Madden's Plains on top of the escarpment between Wollongong and Appin has been considered?

Yep - too many revines and too much undulating ground to fill in.

[Jethro H]

...and more fog than an English winter

[Nigel C]

The fog isn't that bad up there. I'd be lucky to get 10 foggy mornings in a year on the way to and from work.

Yep - too many revines and too much undulating ground to fill in.
That wouldn't stop the Europeans or the Chinese!

[Radi K]

A question since we are having a good discussion on the issue. What about YSSY as the primary domestic and a new airport to act as the new primary international, similar to overseas. Would that work?

[Clarke P]

Radi, I think the reverse would be a better option, with YSSY as the international airport and a new airport operating the domestics.

The reason I suggest this is because Sydney is already set up for the A380 and building a second airport with an equally capable runway would be somewhat money-wasting, especially if the A380-capable runway(s) at YSSY were only used for domestic ops.

I take it extending Bankstown wouldn't be an option or that would've been sonsidered already..

Is there any reason nobody suggested Heathcote? I've never actually been to Heathcote and am rather clueless about the area, so forgive me if this is utter stupidity, but on the map it appears to be a rather "vacant" area with sufficient access by road and closer to the current Sydney Airport than other alternatives.

[Mike W]

The tough thing for any new Airport, particularly if it were to be for Domestic ops is the proxcimity to the CBD. One of the best things going for YSSY is how close it is to town. Straight away, anything else will be a disadvantage to domestic business travellers, probably the most frequent users of the port (my view and unsubstantiated, BTW)

Despite, the 380 thing already in place (really, anyone would think that Australian Aviation now revolves around the whalejet), I believe it would be better to relocate future International ops to a potentially new Airport further away.

[Clarke P]

How about.. shifting both domestic and international LCC ops to a new airport pretty much designed for LCC's and leaving full-service carriers @ YSSY?

That would allow Tiger to fly straight into a Sydney airport, along with other LCC's, and move Jetstar into that airport which would relieve some congestion (given then have quite a few arrivals/departures each day from YSSY).

Wouldn't be such a bad idea to move REX over as well, that would divert quite a few operations out of YSSY itself.

[NickN]

You would have to think that Richmond would be the best suited site in terms of location. Not to mention an existing runway and located in an area which has a low density population. Bankstown will never get off the ground, too many old folks there, retirees etc like my grandparents who will protest until their dentures fall out.

[Nigel C]

Unfortunately you can't be so shortsighted as to where the population is around the airport. Sure, from the west the only settlements of size are Richmond and North Richmond, but from the east you have Windsor and the Rouse Hill/Castle Hill area, the former becoming another Campbelltown size population.

Also, as previously stated a couple of times, the fog in Richmond can be pretty bad for extended periods.

[Michael Mak]

Is there any reason nobody suggested Heathcote? I've never actually been to Heathcote and am rather clueless about the area, so forgive me if this is utter stupidity, but on the map it appears to be a rather "vacant" area with sufficient access by road and closer to the current Sydney Airport than other alternatives.
The large vacant area you've mentioned would be Heathcote National Park? It's right next to the catchment area and the large population based around the area in the Sutherland Shire would make it extremely difficult to build a airport.

If it is used as a secondary airport then its close proximity to YSSY would make the project impossible.

[Nigel C]

Add to that the masses of ravines in that area, which is why I thought Madden's Plains further south might be an option until Andrew scotched that idea for the same reason!

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Add to that the masses of ravines in that area, which is why I thought Madden's Plains further south might be an option until Andrew scotched that idea for the same reason!

Sorry to 'scotch' you there mate - it's just that there are ravines further south too.

Any elevation variations in the terrain of more than 100 feet would likely require some pretty unique engineering and environmental solutions. The area along the top of the escarpment between Stanwell Tops/Darkes Forest and where Appin Rd crosses the highway varies between 900ft and 1300ft in elevation.

[Nigel C]

Just bring in the Chinese...they seem to know how to fill a valley in with the mountain that surrounds it for the sake of development!

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Just bring in the Chinese...they seem to know how to fill a valley in with the mountain that surrounds it for the sake of development!

And to hell with the environment! ;) Look at the Three Gorges Dam!!! :eek:

[NickN]

What would be fantastic is a HUGE island constructed 1km out to sea with the airport on it. Something akin to the Palm Island idea, but bigger so we can have 3 runways, serviced by an underground futuristic rail network.

In order to work, Nigel will have to call the Chinese in, they seem to be good at these things. Might make spotting somewhat of a bitch, you'll need a boat as well as a camera.

[Michael Mak]

What would be fantastic is a HUGE island constructed 1km out to sea with the airport on it. Something akin to the Palm Island idea, but bigger so we can have 3 runways, serviced by an underground futuristic rail network.

In order to work, Nigel will have to call the Chinese in, they seem to be good at these things. Might make spotting somewhat of a bitch, you'll need a boat as well as a camera.
The Japanese has this expertise! KIX and NGO are good examples.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

The Japanese has this expertise! KIX and NGO are good examples.

...both of which are built on the Inland Sea or a sheltered bay, neither of which have the same issues as one that might be built on the open ocean.

[NickN]

Loks like the guys from the Palm Island project may be needed. Would cost a fortune but what a great drawcard for the tourism trade.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Loks like the guys from the Palm Island project may be needed. Would cost a fortune but what a great drawcard for the tourism trade.

Again, the Persian Gulf is a sheltered and shallow region of ocean....the Tasman Sea is not! :rolleyes:

[Nigel C]

And to hell with the environment! ;) Look at the Three Gorges Dam!!! :eek:


That's exactly my point...they work without a care of what anyone else might think of them or their methods.
Sometimes, but definately not all of the time, I wish our Federal Government would show the same decision making prowess when it came to major infrastructure projects!

[Jayden Laing]

Would Parkes be a suitable place for a new alternative airport for YSSY. There is talk of a Newcastle building company, Buildev, turning the regional airport into one that is capable of handling B747's & the cargo like planes.

[Nigel C]

It would need high speed rail and an autobahn.

[Joseph D]

That's exactly my point...they work without a care of what anyone else might think of them or their methods.
Sometimes, but definately not all of the time, I wish our Federal Government would show the same decision making prowess when it came to major infrastructure projects!

It is the dreaded NIMBY Syndrome. Both the state and federal governments bow to NIMBYs' all too regularly.

[Nigel C]

They bow to the possibility of an election loss.

[Gareth Forwood]

Why is Badgerys Creek no longer an option? I thought the government bought land there specifically for the purpose of building a new airport.

[Joseph D]

Why is Badgerys Creek no longer an option? I thought the government bought land there specifically for the purpose of building a new airport.

Refer to Post 37.