Aircraft midair in south-west Sydney

[Daniel M]

Just saw on the news, breaking story, of 2 aircraft that have collided midair in Sydneys south west. No other info as of yet.

[Bernie P]

Just saw on the news, breaking story, of 2 aircraft that have collided midair in Sydneys south west. No other info as of yet.

Information noted, but did it say where in Sydneys South West? I live out in Sydneys Sout West thats all...

Tried searching news.com.au/breakingnews but nothing there atm...

[Michael Mak]

It's at Casula.
Passengers trapped as planes collide


Two planes are believed to have collided in Sydney's west, according to NSW Ambulance.
Early reports have two people trapped and another two unconscious at the crash site near Box Road at Casula.
The aircraft are believed to have collided about 11.30am.
MORE TO COME
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/passengers-trapped-as-planes-collide/2008/12/18/1229189763933.html

[Tom Lohdan]

Casula, House and 2 people trapped according to C10

A police spokesman said the plane crashed in the backyard of a house on Flame Tree Street.
Police were aware of initial reports saying a second plane was involved in the incident but could not confirm that at the time, he said.

[Chris W]

info i have is 4 pax on board crashed aircraft. other a/c only just made it back to ysbk

[Nigel C]

For those that don't know, Casula is right near the 2RN radio mast, which is an inbound reporting point for Bankstown Airport. It can be one very busy bit of airspace.

[Pavitar Singh]

A/C involved were a 152 and a Liberty. Casula as said is 2RN (inboard reporting point for BK).

[Rich W]

Took a screen shot from WebTrack at 11:23:51 AM.

The plane on top disappears soon after this screenshot. The plane below continues on and lands at Bankstown

The house is on Box Road, Casula.

[Ian H.]

Looking at Webtrack it seems the crashed aircraft hit the other one from behind and on the port side. They were both at close to 1500' tracking for 2RN. This is very sad.

Ian H.

[Greg McDonald]

From NEWS.COM.AU:


Two people are dead after two planes collided over Sydney's south-west, authorities say.

One plane landed safely but the other plane slammed into a house and burst into flames.

There were people inside the Casula house at the time of the crash but they "were safely evacuated and are being assessed by paramedics at the scene", Ambulance Service of NSW spokeswoman Fiona Cook said.

The plane that hit the house burst into flames, killing two people on board.

"The plane (that hit the house) is on fire," NSW Fire Brigades Superintendent Craig Brierley said, adding that firefighters were at the scene.

A man who witnessed the accident said the plane destroyed the rear of the home on Box Road.

"I was going along the M5 and I've just seen this thing coming down ... the tail was hanging off the back and it's crashed into the back of a house up near Box Road and it's absolutely demolished the back of their house," the man told Fairfax Radio Network.

The second plane, which was also believed to be carrying two people, made its way to Bankstown Airport for an emergency landing, Ms Cook said.

"Reports are it landed safely," she said.

"I believe there were two occupants of that aircraft who are both being assessed."

It was unclear what types of planes were involved.

A Bankstown Airport spokeswoman said the airport was closed for a short time after the second plane landed safely.

She could not say how many people were in the plane or whether any were injured, but said emergency authorities were looking after the male pilot.

"All I can say is he was attended to by ambulance officers and interviewed by police and that's a routine procedure after something like this," she said.

"The airport was closed for a short time to invoke our emergency response plans and the airport is operational at this time."

[Kent Broadhead]

C152 was from Basair, with a student and instructor on board - both women.

Kent

[Nathan Edmunds]

Does any one know names of the people on board, I know a female instructor that works for Basair thats all!!!

[Chris Griffiths]

Nathan,
My suggestion is contact the person you know, if they cannot be reached then call the authorities(Liverpool police would be my first choice)
It would not be appropriate for anyone on this forum to release suchinformation if they knew it.

Regards.

[Robert Zweck]

The Liberty which got back safely to Bankstown was VH-XLY and the C152 was VH-FMG

[Blake Riley]

was very sad news when i heard about it , i fly at basair had actually flown the Cessna 152 VH-FMG a few times at bankstown.

[NickN]

Is there anything that can be done to improve current air safety procedures or accidents like this likely to continue to happen?

[Dan Collins]

This explains the helicopters hovering over the M5/M7 junction area when I was on my way to Campbelltown around midday today.

My condolences to those involved and anyone affected. Never good to hear something like this. The news reports did a decent job I think though they had to interview some rather misinformed residents for their concerns about the situation.

I was in the circuit behind that C152 only the other week at Bankstown.

It serves to remind us how dangerous flying can be - even though events like this are rare in the scheme of things.

Dan

[Michael Mak]

Does any one know names of the people on board, I know a female instructor that works for Basair thats all!!!

The names of the victims have been announced.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/two-dead-after-midair-collision/2008/12/18/1229189804477.html

[Nigel C]

Is there anything that can be done to improve current air safety procedures or accidents like this likely to continue to happen?

You make it sound like this sort of thing happens all the time.:confused:

There have been 3 mid-airs in the last 9 years that I can recall in the Sydney area; one just North east of Hoxton Park in about 99-00 (Tomahawk into a house, unsure of other aircraft), one in the Bankstown circuit area near Milperra about 3 or 4 years ago (Tobago and Warrior? Happy to be corrected) and then this one. Oh, and there was one case of a Pitts Special landing on another aircraft that was lined up at Hoxton Park within this time too.

Admittedly, this is still too high to be acceptable, but all 4 incidents were at different locations in different circumstances.

[Philip Argy]

Reports suggest that one plane ran into the back of the other, which sounds similar to the incident in Vic earlier this year when a trainee on solo ran into the back of another aircraft.

Perhaps there's a case for some kind of mini TCAS for light aircraft?

There's an ATSB media briefing this morning at the crash site so perhaps we'll learn a little more then.

[Tony P]

Did my Commercial flight test with Ken Andrews in the early 90s. Surprised and glad he is still kicking along. Top bloke. Top Pilot.

[Mick F]

No need for a "mini TCAS" (it'd never work). Pilots just need to learn to look outside and scan for traffic, and have situational awareness when they listen on the radio.

Unfortunately it was just a tragic accident. At the moment, there's probably little they can do to avoid this particular incident again (as Nigel said, it's very very rare they occur anyway).

Mick

[Sarah C]

Did my Commercial flight test with Ken Andrews in the early 90s. Surprised and glad he is still kicking along. Top bloke. Top Pilot.

And sadly some of the news outlets and the general public are jumping to conclusions, saying 89 is too old to fly

[Tony P]

You'll probably find it is a high wing v low wing blind spot accident with position reports out of position. Speculation yes, but with the nose damage on the liberty, looks like a likely scenario.

Pilots are taught to look out, especially near reporting points. So I don't think they need to "learn". It's a basic part of training.

[Tony P]

And sadly some of the news outlets and the general public are jumping to conclusions, saying 89 is too old to fly

Well if he can pass the strict medical checks they have to do at that age, I'd have complete confidence going for a ride with him.

[Nigel C]

Mini TCAS....hmmm...light aircraft can hardly do with any more weight penalties!

I agree with Mick's sentiments.

[Tony P]

The mods work fast around here! good work.

[Hugh Jarse]

How can you exclude a device that HELPS situational awareness?

Clearly, see and avoid FAILED on this occasion. When I was working in YPPF way back in the early 90's they had TCAD fitted to the TB10's.

These TCAD devices saved my skin on a couple of occasions and yes, we were keeping a good lookout.

The weight penalty argument is a furphy. It's a small piece of solid state equipment!

This sad event is yet another confirmation that see and avoid on its own is flawed, particularly in busy terminal areas.

Those of you who disbelieve me need to read the BASI report here: http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2005/pdf/See_and_Avoid.pdf (Limitations of See and Avoid)

[Nigel C]

Hi Hugh,

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for safety in the skies, and I certainly wasn't 'excluding' a piece of equipment that would help.

My comment on weight penalties was made in jest. I remember when I was flying (it seems so long ago...:() discussing with my instructor the weight penalties of various equipment that could be added to aircraft (from speed kits to air conditioning units etc), how that affects fuel, pax and baggage loads and why many training aircraft generally aren't fitted with too many extras.

Perhaps I should have thrown an emoticon on the end of it? I apologise if you read it differently to how I intended it.

Cheers
Nigel


Out of curiosity, what would be the cost of a basic TCAD system?

[Adam P.]

<Devil's advocate>
TCAS/D in GAAP control zones such as Bankstown, with aeroplanes on opposite base for parallel runways, not to mention more than one aeroplane on the final leg of the circuit at the same time, and all the others taking off...

My point being, the damn thing would never shut up!!
</Devil's advocate>

[Radi K]

I’m with Hugh. How many more aviators will we lose due to these see and avoid procedures not working?

We have modern technology available, it’s time to use it. It's life and death not cost/weight.

These accidents are just becoming far too common if you ask me.

[Hugh Jarse]

No worries, Nigel. In 1994 dollars I think it was about $7k (from memory). Personally, I thought it was a good bit of gear at the time. Well I had to, because it saved my skin a few times. It gave bearing/distance/altitude/TXPDR code so you you knew which direction to concentrate your lookout.

Weight wise, I'd imagine a couple of kg.

[NickN]

It is kind of weird that in this day and age of technology some sort of electronic equipment isn't fitted and/or required for light aircraft, something similar to a TCAS. I understand it means extra costs to the owners and has other implications but moving forward into the future where even more people will take to the skies it seems prudent to implement a system earlier than required rather than too late.

[Nigel C]

My point being, the damn thing would never shut up!!
</Devil's advocate>

If that were the case:

a) would people be able to turn it off, or is it hardwired into the master switch?
b) would people just start ignoring it because it is constant?
c) would people choose to fly in non-equipped aircraft?
d) would it distract the pilot from other important aviating tasks?

[Tony P]

Yes to all.

[Philip Argy]

Sounds like a classic high wing/low wing accident, so why not implement what a lot of pilots I know already do, high wing fly 100 feet higher than the reporting point height; low wing pilots 100 feet lower. This improves visibility and halves the number of planes in the exact place because of good flying to the exact rules.

Source: ABC online news commentary from "Lynxpilot"

On the face of it this strikes me as a very sensible improvement to current procedures - would it be difficult to implement?

[Jayden Laing]

Did anyone see the Channel 9 news report on the accident. It was very interesting in the way that the Ch9 helicopter simulated an approach into YSBK & on approach, had spotted 3 aircraft all in circuits at 11:30am (peak hour). The pilot said "That at bankstown, pilots have to rely on themsleves to know where other aircraft are etc."

[Dan Collins]

The circuit pattern does get extremely busy at Bankstown, I think 3 aircraft in the circuit isn't as full as it has been. Situational awareness is drilled into you all the time though.

We are taught to be visually aware of the aircraft in front of us in the circuit and their rego by listening out on the radio. Though I'm okay with this when the circuit runs normally, it becomes a little harder when instructed to do an early or late crosswind and a change of sequence occurs or something.

However, it wasn't on approach to Bankstown where the accident occured, at least, not where the circuit would have been visible etc. The accident happened near '2RN' which is a reporting point further west of the airport.

Dan

[MSellars]

Interesting to note that the web tracker data for YSBK traffic during the period of the incident has been removed.

[Mark D]

Interesting to note that the web tracker data for YSBK traffic during the period of the incident has been removed.

In this sort of event ATSB are the owners of ANY records so that's not so suprising.

Re the TCAS TCAD discussion... what about ADS-B in everything... a lot more data & better situational awareness all around. I'ts been proposed but there are noisy elements in GA who don't want to spend a cent on 'mandatory' equipment because they don't think they need it, or don't want ot be told what to carry.

[Ryan Hothersall]

In a situation like this the media will try and say this or that caused the crash.

Blaming the pilot of the second aircraft that managed to land safely because he is 89 is not on if you ask me. Yes he is a senior citizen of this country, and has to pass tests to keep his licence.

His experiences flying spitfires (and on occasion flying them with bits and pieces shot off) would have helped him to land.

[David Ramsay]

His experiences flying spitfires (and on occasion flying them with bits and pieces shot off) would have helped him to land.

Nothing beats experience when you are in the $#!t.

[Nigel C]

It's one thing I remember getting taught in flying training was to try and keep any passengers calm during an emergency by reassuring them you'd practiced that scenario many times before.

You can almost picture the 89 year old instructor turns to his understandably terrified student and saying calmly "No need to panic, I've done this many times before..."
Hats off to him for getting his machine down safely.

[steve k]

Sad loss and my condolences go out to all affected, bearing in mind, it could have been a lot worse, on the ground and in the air. Thankfully it was not and thanks to the veteran instructor who saved a situation which could have been even worse. steve k

[Matt R]

http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/pdf/AO2008081_prelim.pdf

http://www.smh.com.au/national/midair-crash-pilots-wrong-calls-revealed-20090224-8gh1.html