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NickN
5th April 2008, 08:29 PM
Airlines going out of business has become as familiar as the change of weather lately.

Any tips on who you think might be next to go?

Montague S
5th April 2008, 09:08 PM
Alitalia...

Kieran Wells
5th April 2008, 11:24 PM
Alitalia...


Agree - they may have a little under 2 weeks left, with them apparently losing $1.6millionUSD per day i read earlier today...

Rod Sloan
6th April 2008, 07:48 AM
Freedom Air...










oops..no..already gone. :)

Lukas M
6th April 2008, 08:10 AM
Bye Bye Jetstar Asia

Michael Morrison
6th April 2008, 08:56 AM
I suppose it really comes down to what airlines have huge debts and cant refinance them int he current tight credit environment.... With this, id say the airlines in EU / USA are more exposed due to the down turn and hieghtened competiiton. Airlines in our part of the world are still making some decent profits

NickN
6th April 2008, 07:47 PM
Well the Air France / KLM takeover of Alitalia has failed so I suppose that might see them go next!

It's a real shame too, Alitalia was an icon back in the 70s and 80s.

Nick W.
6th April 2008, 09:25 PM
Italisn Government has started to push the point with the aviation industry. Although there are numerous other carriers in Italy, Alitalia is arguable the figurehead of their airline industry, hence they would not want to see them go.


BRDO, Slovenia, April 5 (Reuters) - The Italian government urged Alitalia's unions to signal within the next two days that they are willing to soften their line with Air France-KLM, after the collapse in talks to buy the ailing Italian airline.
The Franco-Dutch carrier walked out of negotiations with Alitalia's unions to buy the state's 49.9 stake in Italy's largest airline, saying requests by labour leaders were unacceptable.
"My appeal (to unions) is to do something new today, or tomorrow at the latest," Economy Minister Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa told a reporters in Solovenia, after a meeting of the European Union finance ministers.
Air France-KLM's board meets on Monday, and the Italian government said it hoped the Franco-Dutch carrier would not completely write off the takeover of Alitalia, which the officials believe offer the airline its best chance of survival.
"I hope Air France-KLM won't shut the door for good," Enrico Letta, a senior adviser to Prime Minister Romano Prodi, told reporters in the northern Italian lakeside town of Cernobbio.
"And this of course hinges on the unions showing a responsible attitude."
JOB CUTS PLANNED
Air France-KLM planned to cut 2,100 jobs at Alitalia with more redundancies at its ground service unit.
Alitalia's board is due to decide on April 8 whether to ask for protection from creditors, with the government scrambling to keep it flying despite a haemhorrage of about 1 million euros ($1.57 million) a day.
Once a proud symbol of Italy's post-war economic boom, Alitalia has been felled by tough competition, soaring fuel prices and frequent labour strikes. It has posted a profit only four times in the past 15 years.
Still, plans to privatise the airline have stirred nationalist sentiment just ahead of April 13-14 general elections, and turned Alitalia into a top campaign issue.
Opposition leader Silvio Berlusconi, tipped to become Italy's next prime minister, has appealed to Italian businessmen to come forward and save Alitalia from French control.
But Berlusconi's future finance minister if elected, Giulio Tremonti, seemed to leave an opening for Air France-KLM when speaking to reporters on Saturday.
"Why not?", Tremonti told reporters in Cernobbio. "If it preserves the identity, strength and value of Alitalia."
Confusing matters, Italian media reported on Saturday, citing unnamed sources, that one possibility for Alitalia could be a bidding consortium including Germany's Lufthansa and U.S. private equity firm Texas Pacific Group.
AGI news agency said the bidders may include Alitalia's closest domestic rival, Air One.
A senior labour leader, Raffaele Bonanni of the Cisl union, had been quoted on Friday suggesting that unions would favour a takeover by Lufthansa.
A Lufthansa spokesman said there was "no news" since the airline most recently denied it planned to bid for Alitalia on Thursday. It was not immediately possible to reach officials at Texas Pacific Group or Air One. (Additional reporting by Valentina Za in Cernobbio and Georgina Prodhan in Paris; Writing by Phil Stewart and Valentina Za)

Greg F
7th April 2008, 04:10 PM
In My opinion in Australia

Tiger - Unsustainable Low Fares. Backed by Singapore Air, If it doesn't work or make money the pin could easily be pulled. Fighting for Terminal space and affordable airport costs.. A little rocky at the moment

JetStar - Low Cost slightly higher than tiger. Backed by Qantas (QF can offload flights & destinations etc to JQ. Also no great issue with airport space, just share/piggy back with QF)

Virgin Blue - To me they seem a little lost... They are heading away from LCC more so to the Qantas end... They have ridiculous running costs and have just purchased less efficient aircraft the E-Jets, carrying less passengers... Kind of the old Ansett CRJ move.. Risky in 'my opinion'

Qantas - I hope that they keep pushing the fleet renewal, some of the QF jets are looking rather tacky and old. As far as maintenance issues, I think the media have blown it way out of proportion.

So basically 'in my opinion' I see in Australia Tiger is the most likely to depart, but I also am concerned for DJ... I mean toll are trying to sell it and even Branson doesn't want it back... He is very smart with his $$. High Costs.. They "Virgin" are sitting where Ansett was, the meat in the sandwich..

DJ > AN > QF whereas today its like TT,JQ > DJ > QF..
'which way do Virgin go?' they are heading QF's Way, and QF is slooowly ditching services and giving to JQ....

What does everyone else think?

Lukas M
7th April 2008, 04:18 PM
I really agree with Tiger leaving over the next finacial year, if no profit is made. Tiger should have come 4 years ago, and it would have been king. Jetstar are flying high, but Virgin is the one to watch with the regional move and premium economy focus.

I must say Tiger is the one to go next:(, those Unsustainable Low Fares are just stupid, I wont be booking to far ahead with Tiger

Marty H
7th April 2008, 04:36 PM
Well the Air France / KLM takeover of Alitalia has failed so I suppose that might see them go next!

It's a real shame too, Alitalia was an icon back in the 70s and 80s.


The trade unions have forced the knockback of the AF/KLM offer which was really the best chance Alitalia had.

NickN
7th April 2008, 05:31 PM
So Trade Unions forced the knockback of the AF/KLM deal, so rather than all those Alitalia staff keeping their jobs it all goes ***** up coz of a Union.

Sorry but I have never been a fan of unions.

Marty H
7th April 2008, 05:37 PM
So Trade Unions forced the knockback of the AF/KLM deal, so rather than all those Alitalia staff keeping their jobs it all goes ***** up coz of a Union.

Sorry but I have never been a fan of unions.

Im the same more trouble than they are worth.

Grant Smith
8th April 2008, 12:42 AM
Martin,

"Im the same more trouble than they are worth."

What do you mean the union is more trouble than it is worth?


Nick,

How much do you know about "the unions"?

Marty H
8th April 2008, 10:32 AM
Martin,

"Im the same more trouble than they are worth."

What do you mean the union is more trouble than it is worth?



Yes thats what I meant Grant, Im not a union person and dont think I will ever be one. I feel loyalty and hard work should carry a person far in any industry and business.

Grant Smith
8th April 2008, 01:24 PM
I didn't ask you to repeat what you said Martin, I asked you what you meant by your comment...

Or are you going to fein ignorance and dodge the question again?

Marty H
8th April 2008, 01:56 PM
I didn't ask you to repeat what you said Martin, I asked you what you meant by your comment...

Or are you going to fein ignorance and dodge the question again?

Sorry, ok I feel from past experience when companies work with unions and vice versa what the company wants the union generally accepts as with an EBA the union will say we want a 12% pay increase over 3 years the company will say we are only willing to give you 9%, union saysok no worries end of story.

Ive also seen where the union has been that weak that they wouldnt even seek a EBA from the company and just excepted award wages for its members, I used to question the union rep and say well Ive given the union $7 in union dues all year but what have you done for the members and what are we going to see in the future? It was a weak response of well nothing much and I have never been a union member ever again and wont ever be either as they are more than happy to take the dues from you and offer nothing in return, I guess another prime example would be the QF pay/EBA discussions recently the union came out all gun ho saying well rolling stoppages etc and as soon as it come time to do it the union had already gone as soft as butter, and in the end I dont think they did anything.

NickN
8th April 2008, 06:58 PM
Grant, as an owner driver for many years with TNT and basically being "forced" to join a union just to be treated as a human being and the countless days I went unpaid due to petty disputes between the union and the company due to strike action which was battled out in the IRC I have had enough of unions to last me a lifetime.

I will admit I was raised by parents who were strongly Liberal Party advocates and who were strongly anti-union. My grandfather was also foreman on the docks for 40 years and some of the union crap they used to carry on with was rather astonishing.

I understand alot of people here are in employment within the airline industry which I believe is still heavily unionised?

BradR
9th April 2008, 02:14 PM
We have the answer.

OASIS HONG KONG are apparently terminating all services 4PM Hong Kong time today.:(

Brad

Rhys Xanthis
9th April 2008, 03:16 PM
We have the answer.

OASIS HONG KONG are apparently terminating all services 4PM Hong Kong time today.:(

Brad



-- Local airline Oasis Hong Kong, launched in Oct. 2006, is said to be running out of business and will stop flying from today. The airline has reportedly accumulated losses of as much as HK$1 billion. Sources say more than HK$1 million in losses is incurred on each flight Oasis operates.

http://www.oasishongkong.com/hk/en/home.aspx shows nothing about it.

Dummy booking shows no availability.

They looked like such an awesome carrier!

I just read about them in March Aus. Aviation too...i was really looking forward to them coming into the Australian market.

Ryan N
9th April 2008, 06:58 PM
Hong Kong budget airline Oasis in liquidation

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jLh0SBryg0QoPjKRT4Wo6xlH6wSA

HONG KONG (AFP) — Hong Kong budget airline Oasis stopped flying Wednesday and announced it had gone into liquidation, just 18 months after it first took to the skies with eye-popping low fares.

At a brief news conference, chief executive Stephen Miller gave no explanation for the shut-down, which comes amid soaring fuel costs that have recently forced the closure of other carriers worldwide.

The move left an unknown number of passengers stranded in Hong Kong and the airline's two destinations, London and Vancouver.

"It is with great regret that Oasis Hong Kong Airlines has today voluntarily applied to the Hong Kong court to appoint a provisional liquidator," Miller said.

"We have therefore suspended all passenger services with immediate effect."

He said financial services group KPMG had been appointed as liquidator, and that they would now be seeking partners.

"We are very confident that somebody will come forward," he said. Miller then congratulated Oasis staff and walked out of the briefing.

All flights on Oasis departing from Hong Kong on Wednesday were cancelled, and travellers holding tickets were given a hotline number to contact.

Earlier, the Hong Kong Economic Times reported what it called a "rumour" that the company was struggling under debts of up to one billion Hong Kong dollars (128 million US).

Eddie Middleton, KPMG's partner in charge of restructuring services in Hong Kong, told reporters he had been first informed of a problem on Tuesday night and was appointed by the court on Wednesday.

He was not able to say why the company was in trouble and had not yet seen the carrier's accounts.

Middleton said his immediate priority was to help passengers who were stranded by the cancellation of flights or who had already bought tickets for future travel.

Oasis launched in October 2006, offering one-way Hong Kong to London pre-tax fares of 1,000 Hong Kong dollars (128 US). It later added a link to the western Canadian city of Vancouver.

The company, which employs just under 700 staff, had been operating daily between Hong Kong and London, and six times a week between Hong Kong and Vancouver, with plans to open additional routes to Europe and North America.

The company was founded by husband-and-wife team Raymond and Priscilla Lee, who said in an interview last year with AFP that the Oasis model would succeed because their planes spent less time on the ground.

But Oasis suffered from a bad take-off when its maiden voyage was delayed 30 hours after Russia withdrew permission to fly over its airspace at the last minute.

However, their model shook up the already competitive industry.

Rivals including Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific were forced to lower fares to compete with the super-cheap offers.

Oasis was part of the push for low-cost flights that has been so successful in the European market and, alongside Malaysian-based AirAsiaX, the firm tried to create a long-haul version of the cheap model.

Despite the early setbacks, they managed to attract a 30 million US dollar investment by Hong Kong-based asset management firm Value Partners last year.

The money was going to be used to buy 14 more second-hand Boeing aircraft to bolster the current fleet of five, whose average age is 10 years old, executives said.

Value Partners said in a statement on Wednesday it believed its investment was well-protected.

Robert Zweck
9th April 2008, 08:27 PM
I would never have bought the Jungle Jet....bad move.

Kurt A
11th April 2008, 11:20 AM
Oasis Hong Kong Airlines Provisional Liquidation update on passengers and crew

To minimize the inconvenience to its passengers, Oasis Hong Kong Airlines, under the management of its Provisional Liquidators, has been working closely with several airlines to offer preferred fares for Oasis passengers on both the London and Vancouver routes.

A full list of cooperating airlines and hotels is available for Oasis passengers’ easy reference on www.oasishongkong.com (http://www.oasishongkong.com/) and details are updated on a regular basis as they become available.
This information is also available via travel agents.

Oasis appreciates the support of the cooperating airlines and apologizes for the inconvenience caused to current passengers.

In Hong Kong, the Oasis ground handler, Jardine Aviation Services has been assisting passengers arriving at the airport with alternative travel arrangements.

All Oasis flights remain cancelled until further notice.

Claims for Refund
Oasis customers may register their claims by submitting a Registration of Claims form to the Provisional Liquidators for unused portions of air tickets with confirmed bookings.

Oasis Crew Members - Returning Home
Since the appointment of the Provisional Liquidators, Oasis Hong Kong Airlines has undertaken a range of measures to bring Hong Kong based crews home.

Thirty-four crew members arrived from London Gatwick Airport today, with a further 32 crew members arriving this evening from Vancouver. All possible measures are being taken to bring home those Oasis crew members still abroad.
-Oasis Hong Kong Airlines

Kieran Wells
11th April 2008, 11:49 AM
It is amusing that Oasis are still advertising their student bundle airfares to London! Most other airlines remove all advertising when they go down...

Shameel Kumar
11th April 2008, 12:08 PM
Wholey smokes... they're dropping like flies! :eek:

With increasing fuel-prices now here to stay, looks like the industry is beginning a 'shake out' phase. Survival of the fittest for those carriers who haven't got strong financial backing.

Sad to see Oasis go..they had a great livery and seemed very promising.

Another one bites the dust I guess...:(

Lukas M
11th April 2008, 01:06 PM
Who is next I wonder?
My guess would be Viva Macau

NickN
11th April 2008, 01:24 PM
I don't know alot about Viva Macau but they seem to have a good marketing strategy and the destination is great. I suppose either another Asian or American airline may be next.

Brian Wilkes
11th April 2008, 01:34 PM
Frontier. Watch this space!

Robert Zweck
11th April 2008, 02:05 PM
Didn't some airline in the US called Champion Air go under the other day?

Lukas M
11th April 2008, 02:16 PM
I don't know alot about Viva Macau but they seem to have a good marketing strategy and the destination is great. I suppose either another Asian or American airline may be next.
Asian wise, I do wonder about Lion Air, Jetstar Asia, and mabye Tiger, Viva Macau were losing a lot of $$$ fast recently

AirAsia is the only strong one in the region

Michael Mak
11th April 2008, 02:34 PM
Asian wise, I do wonder about Lion Air, Jetstar Asia, and mabye Tiger, Viva Macau were losing a lot of $$$ fast recently

AirAsia is the only strong one in the region
I doubt Jetstar Asia will collapse, they are owned by QF (49%).
Tiger likewise is owned by SQ (49%), both have strong financial support,

Lukas M
11th April 2008, 02:42 PM
Yes, dont forget about the other 51% of investors. If they are not pulling in any cash soon, then they will just pull the plug:p No point digging deeper of investors pockets if they get nothing in return

JQ Asia,TT would be bad investments to get into, both have lost hundreds of Millions over the past 4 years:eek:. Anyway they could always impove, its just going to take a while thats all

Marty H
11th April 2008, 03:04 PM
Didn't some airline in the US called Champion Air go under the other day?

Yes they fell over about two weeks ago along with the last remaining B727 passenger services in the USA

Michael Morrison
11th April 2008, 04:42 PM
Frontier have just filed fro Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection.

Grant Smith
12th April 2008, 12:13 AM
JQ Asia,TT would be bad investments to get into, both have lost hundreds of Millions over the past 4 years:eek:. Anyway they could always impove, its just going to take a while thats all

Lukas,

Are you in the financial game? Or a numbers man?

Please provide said evidence to backup your claims that 3K and TR have lost "hundreds of millions" over the last four years...

I would be interested to know...

Shameel Kumar
12th April 2008, 12:54 AM
Frontier have just filed fro Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection.

Waaaaat ? :eek:

This is starting to get out of hand. I guess when it rain.. it pours!!

Looks like all those fascinating and colourful Frontier tales may not be around for too much longer. What do you guys think of Virgin America's viability (or should that be survivability) over the coming months to a year?

Kieran Wells
12th April 2008, 01:10 AM
From Jetphotos...

VRG suspends flights to international destinations

VRG Linhas Aéreas S/A (Rio de Janeiro) is suspending flights to several international destinations, including Mexico City, Paris and Madrid, over the next two months in order to focus on better adapting to market conditions, while increasing its presence in the domestic and South American markets and concentrating efforts on routes where it maintains competitive advantages. The Company’s focus will be to expand its route network in Brazil and South America by maintaining a lean cost structure and increasing revenues.
----

is this the start of another one to start heading under?? "lean cost structure" sounds interesting, however for an airline to pull several international routes, there has to be something going on....

Marty H
12th April 2008, 07:16 AM
Waaaaat ? :eek:

This is starting to get out of hand. I guess when it rain.. it pours!!

Looks like all those fascinating and colourful Frontier tales may not be around for too much longer. What do you guys think of Virgin America's viability (or should that be survivability) over the coming months to a year?

I raised that point on another airline forum due to VA's itinal start up costs and the time it would take to turn a profit.................be interesting situation for VA at this time.

Lukas M
12th April 2008, 07:54 AM
Lukas,

Are you in the financial game? Or a numbers man?

Please provide said evidence to backup your claims that 3K and TR have lost "hundreds of millions" over the last four years...

I would be interested to know...
Since Operation:
-Tiger Airways have lost:
$37.4m 2006 loss
$14.3 2007 loss
Tiger Airways is now due for a finance report(2007-2008 year)

-Jetstar Asia have lost:
$36 ValuAir Merger
$47.5m 2006 loss
$14m 2007 loss
$36m 2007 investors money

Jetstar Asia are swimming in debt, but not drowning. Looks like Tiger will report a small profit any day now, but still these airlines are in a grim situation

and Virgin America have lost so far:
$37m first quater:eek:


Souces:
http://www.straitstimes.com/Latest%2BNews/Money/STIStory_204193.html (http://www.straitstimes.com/Latest%2BNews/Money/STIStory_204193.html)
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporebusinessnews/view/269667/1/.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetstar_Asia_Airways#cite_note-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Airways
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/18/BUNFU05OQ.DTL

Shameel Kumar
12th April 2008, 08:15 AM
Frontier have just filed fro Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection.

Having a read of a thread of the same topic at A.net... one member has provided what seems to be a possible explanation for Frontier's decision to file for Ch. 11.

From Ikramerica:

From how I understand it, they had to enter Ch.11 ASAP so that the CC (Credit Card) company could not change the terms of their deal.

After reading up on "hold backs" and how they work, the CC Processor is within their right to change the terms if they see a fundamental change in the business they are working with. It's within the contract F9 (Frontier Airlines) has with them. They must be worried about F9's losses and that the mantra for ATA and AQ (Aloha Airlines) passengers has been "contact your credit card company" which is plastered all over the web as advice. I'm sure the credit card companies are ****ed they are being put in the middle, and the processors even more so (charge backs are expensive), and so are now increasing hold back on all "shaky" carriers to protect themselves. And from how I understand it, the processor could basically hold all F9s credit card transactions for a long period of time as security.

But by filing Ch.11, that freezes all contracts and terms as is for a set amount of time (60 days?). At least that's how I understand it. Then the BK judge can sort through it. But it means everything holds as is, the CC processor can't increase the hold back, and F9 stays liquid. Probably.

Link to thread (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3930428/)

Sounds like a plausible explanation for Frontier's sudden announcement. Seems like they're trying to think more about long-term viability and don't want to get caught out by this sudden squeeze that creditors have placed upon struggling airlines.

Michael Morrison
12th April 2008, 09:13 AM
I just took alook at that thread.... I can't believe a Credit Card company can go from with holding 45% of your payments to 100% without much notice!

Wayne Bishop
12th April 2008, 03:51 PM
Who's next?

Far Eastern Air Transport (Taiwan) have applied to the High Court in Taiwan for "restructuring" last week.

With the introduction of the new high speed rail service between taipei and Kaosiung loads re now so small that (for example) Transasia Airways has downgraded equipment on the route from A320/321 to ATR72!!

Oh, and for the record Oasis 747-412 (B-LFA) operated the last flight from LGW to CLK last Wedsnesday bringing home all UK based staff.

Cheers
Wayne

Bevan Webber
13th April 2008, 01:41 PM
I raised that point on another airline forum due to VA's itinal start up costs and the time it would take to turn a profit.................be interesting situation for VA at this time.

Good news for VX(Virgin America)

U.S. and British investors behind Virgin America, the start-up U.S. carrier conceived by Sir Richard Branson, say they can weather the current turbulence slamming airlines and plan to soon inject about $100 million of additional capital into the company.

Shameel Kumar
13th April 2008, 02:51 PM
Good news for VX(Virgin America)


Thanks for the heads-up there Bevan... great news, especially for a potential future passenger like myself. What they offer really is fantastic, so it's good to hear the investors are backing-up their initial decision to start-up the airline. :)