RAAF Airlift Cababilites - Defense White Paper

[Gerard M]

With the release of the Defense White Paper today, in relation to our airlift capability, we will be acquiring 2more C-130J Hercules along with an extra 10 light tactical fixed wing aircraft whcih will be replacing the Caribou.

These new aircraft will complement the current air transport fleet of four C-17 and 12 C-130J aircraft. The older C-130H aircraft will be retired. The Government will ensure that these new light tactical fixed-wing aircraft will have significantly greater range, speed and payload than the retiring Caribou transports.If the H models are going to be retired, how many hercs will that leave us with? And over what time period would we expect to see them retired?

The paper also states that the KC-30 is meant to be entering service in 2010 which will also increase our ability to transport troops.

[Mike W]

Any tips on the Caribou replacement?

[Nigel C]

There was a rather lengthy discussion about this very topic a short time ago. Here is the link: http://yssyforum.net/board/showthread.php?t=1560&highlight=White+Paper

[Gerard M]

Another question re the hercs, does anyone know whether we would be getting them second hand or new? If second hand..im guessing from the US is more than likely?

[damien b]

If the order is placed soon they can get brand new J models, if they wait a few years - well that would depend if Lockheed is still producing them. My bet would be brand new J's as we tend to work them pretty hard and not many operators of the J would be selling them in the near future.

As for how many Hercs - 14 once all the H's are retired (Not sure when that is planned for, 2 have been 'retired' so far)

[Gerard M]

Are the two that are "retired" the ones without engines and the red noses infront of the paint hanger? If thats the case there was another one further down the flightline with another red nose?

I thought they were just awaiting painting?

[Andrew McLaughlin]

The new ADF Air Lift fleet after the White Paper ambitions have been fulfilled will be...

RAAF
4 x C-17A (36SQN - Amberley)
14 x C-130J (37SQN - Richmond)
10 x C-27J or C-295M (38SQN - Townsville)
5 x KC-30A

ARMY
7 x CH-47F Chinook
40 x MRH 90
12 x S-70A-9 Black Hawk

NAVY
6 x MRH 90
24 x MH-60R or NFH 90

Looks like a good mix. The two extra C-130Js will be new - LockMart has long term contarcts to build a substantial number of these aircraft for the USAF and other operators. The Caribou replacement will likely be the C-27J, while the Seahawk/Seasprite replacement could go either way...

Cheers

[damien b]

Are the two that are "retired" the ones without engines and the red noses infront of the paint hanger? If thats the case there was another one further down the flightline with another red nose?

I thought they were just awaiting painting?

I would suggest that that is the case - no engines means they have been retired. The radomes have probably been removed as spare parts and the red ones installed. I do recall the RAAF having at least two red radomes for use on Red Nose Day.

Just as an extra i have heard that the paint shop operators (TAE) are shutting down as at the end of June. Who will take over the paint shop i have no idea.

Andrew - i was under the impression that some of the CH-47D's would be modified to F standard, as well as buying new F models, giving us a fleet of roughly 12 Chinooks. I assume that is not the case by what you have stated.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Andrew - i was under the impression that some of the CH-47D's would be modified to F standard, as well as buying new F models, giving us a fleet of roughly 12 Chinooks. I assume that is not the case by what you have stated.

The White Paper brief says the six CH-47Ds would be replaced by seven new CH-47Fs, so I'm assuming the Ds may be traded in as some kind of deal on the Fs, and possibly put through the F upgrade (which is virtually a re-build from scratch anyway) themselves for the US Army perhaps.

[Mick.B]

Andrew. Do you really thing 7 Chooks is enough. They are getting a seriours flogging in Afganistan at the moment. I recon at lease 12 would be a minimum with 4 on rotation to Southern Asia at any one time. It is known that 2 is not enough over there at one time. That leave another 2 groups of four at Townsville for operations, training and aircraft preperation for the rotation.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Please refrain from quoting the whole post above in your post - mod


It's way above my pay grade to know whether seven is enough, although I doubt we could ever crew or field ~12 Chinooks at a time! The Chinook has grown into a fairly specialist 'hot & high' heavylift and Special Forces support role in Afghanistan, and with the arrival of 40+ MRH 90s in the near future, they'll pick up alot of the the medium lift work previously done by Chinooks but which was beyond the capabilities of the Huey and Black Hawk.

Yes, the Ds have been flogged, but they have all recently received new engines and two of them are only a decade old, and there is now a pretty good rest and reconstitute cycle in place which seems to be spreading the load much better betwen airframes.

Whether we need more than two Chooks in Afghanistan at once is also debatable - my gut feeling is our RTF and Special Forces may be better served with a few Tigers or Black Hawks instead. There is also a fourth Herc headed over there to support the latest troop increase as well.

Cheers

[Ray P.]

The Defence White Paper looks a little boring with nothing here really that would be considered Earth shattering for ADF aviation. We were already well down the track of KC-30A, MRH90 (for Army and Navy), Wedgetail, Caribous were always going to be replaced (and 10 replacements has been mentioned a few times already, that's why we have an Interim Replacement Program underway) and F Model Chooks was well known. Although the replacement of the S-70B-2s with 24 replacements was a bit surprising as was the two extra J models and retirement of the H models (though that was always going to happen).

I wonder what the White Paper looked like before Treasury got to it.

[Gerard M]

I would suggest that that is the case - no engines means they have been retired. The radomes have probably been removed as spare parts and the red ones installed. I do recall the RAAF having at least two red radomes for use on Red Nose Day.


Thanks Damien, i was just presuming they were waiting to be painted into the new scheme all this time:rolleyes:. Do we know whats going to happen to them now, or are they just going to be moved to where the 707s are parked too...if there is enough room?

[damien b]

I have no idea on what the RAAF intends to do with them. It would be good to see at least one head down to the RAAF Museum.

[Gerard M]

The new ADF Air Lift fleet after the White Paper ambitions have been fulfilled will be...

RAAF

10 x C-27J or C-295M (38SQN - Townsville)



In the latest Air Force Magazine online it says that 38SQN will be taking delivery of 8 King Air 350's over the coming year. This includes transfering the 3 Army operated Kings over to the AF along with an additional 5 brand new ones coming around 2010.
From what i gathered this is their method of closing the gap between the retirement of the Bou until the acquisition of the new C-27J's.

[Dan Hammond]

Out of interest i just received Australian Aviation magazine in the mail, an interesting article about the white paper in there too.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Hi Andrew, please refrain from quoting the whole previous post in your post, it is not necessary, thank you - mod


The White Paper was a bit of a non-event from an aviation point of view - nothing really new in there.

We initially reported on the King Airs late last year - it seems like a good move getting out of the 'steam gauge' Caribou into an interim turbine powered, EFIS equipped leased King Air before the C-27J/C-295M arrives from about 2014.

[Gerard M]

For anyone interested here is a picture of King Air A32-651 on the producion line for the RAAF. Due to be delivered 2010. Images from Australian defence force.