Today Tonight and Foreign Pilots

[Gerard M]

Just turned on the TV and caught the end of a preview for next weeks show, supposedly a special of how with 70 million passengers in the sky each year the potential for tragedy is high! It seems like its going to be basically having a go at the large number of foreign pilots in the sky and how they are all not able to be understood by the controllers, and the program comes with real recordings of pilot communication! Another must see!

I'll be interested to see what they really make of this and where they got the idea from?

On the other hand, whenever i have listened to my scanner you do hear a few unreadable communications along with controllers getting a bit short with the pilots when they don't respond/misunderstand the messages. But i think they may be blowing this a little bit out of the water and i think these sort of programs are designed to put negative thoughts into peoples heads.

Usual disclaimer here, just my opinion and im not an aviation expert and it may very well endanger the lives of the 70million passengers.

Be interested to see what others think on the topic.

Cheers

Gerard

[Matt_L]

Usual disclaimer here, just my opinion and im not an aviation expert and it may very well endanger the lives of the 70million passengers.

Be interested to see what others think on the topic.



Gerard,

Today Tonight is notorious for sensationalist reporting but it is a major issue in the industry as brought up recently with Garuda- the Yogyakarta crash etc.

I have a personal experience - when i went overseas to Hong Kong from Syd at the end of March I happened to be in the queue at customs with the 4 China Eastern pilots operating MU566 to Shanghai and had a chat to them.

What I say is in no way tweaked in the fact that it was more like speaking to a brick wall than an airline pilot- and no disrespect meant here but I asked basic things like what plane they would be flying- a333 model (said it in a very slow manner) and they proceeded to tell me their time of departure. Also asked them about their ranks and just didnt respond and various other questions made me glad I was not on their flight and deeply concerned about certain foreign pilots flying into our skies. The pilots were aged between what looked like 20/30s to the captain who looked in 50s.

I was just gobsmacked that these people could be commanding an airliner with 200+ people onboard but unfortunately thats the state of affairs.

So Today Tonight will overdo it like always:) but in some respects I believe they are absolutely correct.

If anyone has any real doubts about what I say above I urge you to go to Sydney Intl T1 and see for yourself some of the foreign pilots.

[Gerard M]

Sorry i forgot to add that i think it was being emphasized that it was the student pilots that from the way they portrayed it as that if they had an accent.

I have also heard the professional int. pilots repeatedly missing the frequency to change to.

I don't know does the quality of the radio affect whether transmissions are unreadable? Especailly if there is a non-english accent to be had as well?

Got to say though, some of these programs are almost as good at sensationalizing stories as some newspapers.

[Mike Scott]

They should take a listen to SF approach when the "fleet from the east" show up in the early mornings to do their part in trying the controllers patience while they deal with all the domestic movements. Better still is clearance delivery starting around 11am when they are reading back the info they have just been given....pretty funny (except if you are awaiting your clearance)

MS

[Owen H]

It is certainly an interesting topic, with as usual there will be an emphasis on the Asian airlines, which I believe is somewhat silly. There are plenty of countries in Europe that supposedly speak English, but they still have major communication issues.

I am not suggesting they are perfect, but certainly China is making an effort to improve their English, and although some of the pilot's "conversational" English isn't upto scratch, their "Aviation" English is, in most cases reasonably good.

They can fly over dozens of countries from China to Europe, and through the use of basic aviation language do so successfully.

The countries they have the problems are places like Australia and the US, where there is a widespread use of phrases that are not ICAO, and so the crew do not know them. I have sat on the ground at LAX and listened to a controller get extremely frustrated that the Chinese crew couldn't read back his instructions properly, when none of us on our crew could understand the clearance either! I have also listened to a Sydney controller chastise a Chinese carrier because they elected to stop on the taxiway after being given a confusing taxi clearance. Yes, they did what every pilot is trained to do, and all the controller did was continue to repeat the clearance over and over, when it was clearly confusing the crew. In this instance, and the one in LA, it is clearly the controllers fault... the crew are doing what they are trained to do, and the controller, instead of finding a better, or different, way of explaining their instruction, they just abuse the crew instead.

So whilst I'd say that airlines around the world do need to improve their English skills, the communication issues can be improved on both sides of the microphone.

[NickN]

The countries they have the problems are places like Australia and the US, where there is a widespread use of phrases that are not ICAO, and so the crew do not know them

I bet you'll never see a story about that though, it's just not juicy enough! Easier to bash pilots with poor english.

Like you said Owen, they may not be fluent in English but they know their aviation terminology and can navigate successfully accross the globe.

And why do controllers continue to be allowed to use non-ICAO terminology? Or is that an acceptable practice?

[Gerard M]

Can someone give me some examples of what non-ICAO phrases would be?

I have also heard Richmond tower get extremely short with an American pilot trying to tell him the POB, took about 7 different attempts to get 11 POB out! So clearly some english speaking accents are just as undeciferable as asian accents.

[David Ramsay]

Can someone give me some examples of what non-ICAO phrases would be?

From NZAA tower yesterday .... "line up behind the green machine".

One assumes the green machine was ZK-FRE.

[Matt_L]

often used at Sydney.

"Singapore 220 line up and wait behind the landing dash 8 Runway 34L behind".

Have not seen this in use at many other airports.

[Mick F]

Sorry Matt, but as far as I'm aware, that is an ICAO phrase. I've heard it used at every controlled airport I've travelled into.

I'm often out flying in the middle of the night, when a lot of the International Airline's are coming and going from our shores. A lot of the time, the Asian airlines are quite good with their 'aviation english', and aren't very hard to understand at all. And provided the controller's keep the phraseology nice and standard, then there's generally not a problem. After all, that's why it's 'standard phraseology', so that it cuts down the difficulty for non-english speaking countries. In fact, some of the worst offenders with being difficult to understand, are the American's! Sometimes you wonder if they have even heard of standard phraseology. The French are probably just as bad when flying around France. Pity any english speaking crew flying there, because they wouldn't be able to understand anything the French controllers are saying to the French aircraft.

Matt, the conversation you eluded to that you had with a non-english speaking crew, could be in effect reversed for say an Australian crew in China, and a Chinese person trying to converse with them in Chinese. Do you really think unless the Aussie was fluent in Chinese, he would be able to converse any better than you did with the aforementioned crew??

Must have been a slow week for stories at Today Tonight, because this is the most ludicrous story I've heard for a while.

Mick

[Matt_L]

Sorry Matt, but as far as I'm aware, that is an ICAO phrase. I've heard it used at every controlled airport I've travelled into.

Mick

Fair enough mate.

All im saying is that for what a chinese or american pilot is used to- this isnt a standard phrase as such imho- could be wrong

It is absolutely fine because it is concise and clear and thus is absolutely permissable.

Today Tonight though seem to be able to go to any means to be able to make up a provocative or sensationalist story:D

[Michael Mak]

Does the phase 'line up and wait' used in Europe as well? If my memory serves me right, I once heard HKG ATC and they used 'line up and wait' as well. US uses the phase 'position and hold' instead.

[Martin Buzzell]

Fair enough mate.

All im saying is that for what a chinese or american pilot is used to- this isnt a standard phrase as such imho- could be wrong

It is absolutely fine because it is concise and clear and thus is absolutely permissable.

Today Tonight though seem to be able to go to any means to be able to make up a provocative or sensationalist story:D

Of course!! Don't let facts get in the way of a good story. TT has a certain audience and they reel them in hook. line and sinker.

As we all know here, anybody with an average IQ treats the show with the respect it deserves, none. Can't say I've ever watched the show.

[Chris B.]

Matt L,

As a matter of fact it is a conditional clearance and the correct phraseology is:

"Singapore 220 Behind the A340 on short final line up runway 34 Left behind"

to which the pilot responds:

"Behind the A340 lining up runway 34 Left Singapore 220"

Quoted from AIP Gen 3.4 - 14 para 4.5.1 for your viewing pleasures.

[Owen H]

Chris B, thats what the AIP says, but does the Australia AIP conform to ICAO?

Thats the next question ;)

It may well do in this case, but many countries have a slight variation on the theme, which usually doesn't cause too many problems.

One of the ones that did, for a while, was the phrase "taxi to holding position", meaning taxi to the holding point, and hold short of the runway. This was ICAO, however the US continue to use "position and hold" which means "line up".

So we had an ICAO, and a US, phrase that sounded very similar but had very different meanings. That one was corrected by the use of taxi to holding point xxx.

Another example of an ATC instruction which is valid, but can be confusing, is the use of place names. For example, ATC could instruct an aircraft enroute to "Track direct to Alice", or "Direct to Scone", which is easy for a local to understand, but can be confusing for the poor international pilot. The US is probably the worst for it, telling you to track direct to "the Brickyard"... and unless you have a pretty good idea where you are going, and what they have said, you're left stumped! A good ATC (of which the majority are) will just tell the guy to track to the 3 letter designator, but some will insist on continuing with the place name, which is an example of where the pilot will be blamed for his poor english, but the controler could avert the whole thing.

[Mick F]

I know in my part of the world Owen, the controller's will often state the place name followed by the designator code, for international aircraft. So doesn't create any problems.

Mick

[Michael Mak]

Yeah I often hear the controllers of Brisbane Centre for international flights.

[Owen H]

Yes Mick, a lot of controllers will, and its great to see. Every now and again you get one that doesn't, and that was all I was trying to demonstrate... that communication errors aren't just always because the pilot doesn't speak english, its that language isn't used that would enable them to understand :D

[Mick F]

Ha, yeah, dead right. After all, most international pilots would scratch their head's when you say "Track direct to Kowanyama". :confused: :confused:. "Where and who the hell is Kowanyama?".

Mick

[Owen H]

Absolutely!

It took me about 5 minutes in the US, after being told to "Track Direct to the Brickyard", to work out that its identifier is VHP!

Maybe if I was a car fanatic I'd have had more chance!

[Chris B.]

Chris B, thats what the AIP says, but does the Australia AIP conform to ICAO?

Thats the next question ;)

It may well do in this case, but many countries have a slight variation on the theme, which usually doesn't cause too many problems.


Owen, seeing as it is an Airservices document it most likely doesn't conform with anything. ;)

What I have found though is that this also used to happen at Bankstown. However due to incorrect readbacks they haven't used this phrase for quite some time due to the number of runway incursions.

Oh and just to agree with what you and Mick have said I too have heard controllers use the identifiers for international flights. :D

[NickN]

Most of the stuff I hear from YSSY tower is clear. There are some pretty good doozies on YouTube which are quite funny, and a little scary at the same time.

Am yet to hear a controller or aircraft use the phrase "ready to Rock'n'Roll" but I am sure it will come some day!

[Blake Riley]

Good example of asian pilots not understanding english is this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j12L4jQg00M

[Raymond Rowe]

Different ball park with the Malaysian Crews.Chinese crews as well.

[Owen H]

That video is a great example of what I am talking about.

The taxiway system at Kennedy is particulally confusing anyway, and the controller was giving a clearance that while should be simple, needed to be slowed down. He didn't need to be so "Agro" with the MIKE ALPHA - he should have just slowed down and given progressive taxi instructions. Without the guidance of the transcript it is quite hard to understand even for me!

As to the Ramp - the US tends to use a strange system where you have to contact the ramp controller to be allowed in, however the ramp controller doesn't speak to the ground controller. It is a handful at the best of times trying to have the time to change frequencies on the other radio so you can speak to two people at once.

As you see, the ground controller could quite plainly see that the aircraft did not understand what he was saying. However he just keeps repeating the question over and over again... when there is clearly no understanding. You also see a great example of standard phraseology... "HAVE YOU BEEN CLEARED TO THE RAMP" was interpreted as its closest standard phrase... "Clear to the ramp". So, whilst I agree that the pilots should have understood the system better, the controller could have made his, and everybodies, life far far easier by just not asking the question, telling him to hold position, and independantly verifying if he has that clearance.

[Gerald A]

Its on tonight Ch7 Today Tonight, the programe starts at 6:30pm

[Trevor Sinclair]

Today Tonight is reporting issues with non-English speaking pilots.
Is this a TT beat up?
Thoughts from experienced light aircraft pilots and others most welcome.

[NickN]

Not a pilot Trevor, however having spent countless hours monitoring aircraft radio transmissions at Sydney and other airports some of the transmissions broadcast as part of their "special (not so) investigation" were not far removed from some foreign pilots coming and going from our major international aiorports.

They persisted in blanking out words in their transcript that were quite clearly recognizable by me, and I am sure many others. Just another TT beat up and definately not their best work. And lets face it TT rarely produce anything that can be considered decent and sincere.

[Steve Jones]

I have flown 6 TT sectors in the last 2 weeks and every pilot and F/O who made it onto the intercom (and the majority did) had a broad Australian accent...

[Trevor Sinclair]

If you missed it it's online now under "Foreign Pilots" @ http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/

[Brendon I.]

Did Today Tonight transcribe these radio calls themselves??

I'm not familiar with the area down there but I'm pretty sure "..are you bang Point Ormond.." should be... ARE YOU ABEAM POINT ORMOND?

Abeam sounds like bang I suppose:rolleyes:

Accurate as always TT.

[Gerard M]

Thanks for the link Trevor. After all that i came out to bathurst and bloody Prime doesnt do today tonight!

[Rhys Xanthis]

bloody Prime doesnt do today tonight!

:confused:

How on earth that can be a bad thing is beyond me!

[Gerard M]

Because i wanted to watch it and see what they had to say. I never said i liked watching it.

[Grant Smith]

After all that i came out to bathurst and bloody Prime doesnt do today tonight!

Can't speak for Bathurst, but down here in Wollongong Prime does screen TT, it's in the 1830 timeslot.

[Hugh Jarse]

All this from a cheap and nasty tabloid show that has nothing better to do than run a story on some unknown pianist who has a problem with a location by the name of Lang Lang.:rolleyes: because it shares his name! As if anyone in Oz has ever heard of this bloke, or if anyone really cares. PUKE.

As they say in Latin:

NON DONATUS RODENT ANUS.