Qantas suspends First class product on certain routes

[Luke Chittock]

Howdy all

QF have announced that between 06JUL09 and 31OCT09 they will not be offering First class on flights SYD-SFO-SYD, SYD-EZE-SYD and the QF29/30 MEL-HKG-LHR-HKG-MEL sectors... obviously due to the current economic climate.

The good news is that Zone A (ie First class seats) will be available for J class pax to preseat in.

Regards

Luke/PER

[Rhys Xanthis]

wow...

So I assume the savings come from offering the J product instead of the F product? What are the key differences?

[Michael Morrison]

I presume they save ob catering costs for F and staffing. (ie less staff per pax for F than J)

The seat maps for the HKG-LHR seem to show F and the upper deck as the new zone for J....

The old main deck J seems to be PE and PE is now part of Y.

[NickN]

The beginning of the end..... Qantas just took the first step toward becoming a LCC.

[Andrew P]

What a stupid comment.

[D Chan]

F is a huge waste of space if you work out the amount of pitch it takes up in the cabin.

NickN if you think just because airlines take away First Class that they are scrapping their status as premium carriers you are quite wrong. This is a trend that airlines will begin to take up. Virgin Atlantic is a great example with its Upper Class.

[Andrew P]

What full services airlines don’t have First class on their Australian routes?

These
Air Caledonia
Air China
Air New Zealand
Air Pacific
Asiana
Canadian
Cathay Pacific
China Airlines
China Eastern
China Southern
Delta
Garuda
Hawaiian
Japan Airlines
LAN
Philippine Airlines
South African
Thai
Vietnam Airlines
Virgin Atlantic

with First Class
Qantas
British Airways
Emirates
Etihad
Malaysian
Singapore
United

So all the 1st list are heading in the LCC direction!!! – no wonder your comment is misplaced

Who's missing??

Banjo

[Marty H]

Who's missing??

Banjo

V Australia no first class.

[Andrew M]

With business class improving with each makeover the difference between business and first decreases!

Eventually Qantas will only have first class on a few select routes with the remainder being business, premium Y and Y

[Jason Carruthers]

With SYD-EZE served by 744ER's does that mean that a couple of what already is a small subfleet will lose J as no other current ER routes are losing F. I can't see a standard 744 doing this flight unless it had a AKL stop.

[David Ramsay]

Sounds like they may be going down the same track as NZ did a couple of years back, changing from first, biz, economy to biz, premium economy, economy.

It worked for NZ and sure didn't make them an LCC.

[Michael Morrison]

I think eventually F will only be offered on the A380. Makes sense for the 744's that stay to be 3 class (J/W/Y)

[NickN]

Your welcome to your opinions. I have my own. Qantas is a dying breed domestically, and as much as I understand that removing First Class on some international routes is a sensible business decision that doesn't mean they aren't doing it to save money and increase revenue.

What next? No business and only Economy and Premium Economy?

Even worse meals than you get already? Or no meals on sectors shorter than 3 hours?

It's hard to guage how far things will go to make QF highly competitive but still profitable.

[Andrew M]

Yes everyone has an opinion, but saying that Qantas will become a LCC is not correct in my opinion ;)

Jetstar is their baby and is the LCC

Qantas will make changes where needed and where demand shows it is needed.

They would not be cutting back First unless the demand was simply not there for it.

You cannot blame Qantas, blame the people not flying First anymore

Qantas is a business and do whatever they need to do, to make money

Jetstar WILL simply get bigger and bigger and run alongside Qantas on MEL-SYD soonish.

However, Qantas will still have a small domestic fleet to keep the "business traveller" happy who wants "full service"

Internationally, only a select few routes will have First, while Business WILL stay around and Y+ will expand more. However, again, Jetstar will continue to expand, very heavily once the 787's arrive.

[NickN]

Jetstar is a great business model and concept and helped Qantas capture the low cost market and compete with DJ, but you have to wonder if in creating Jetstar has Qantas created its own monster.

[David Ramsay]

Qantas is a dying breed domestically, and as much as I understand that removing First Class on some international routes is a sensible business decision that doesn't mean they aren't doing it to save money and increase revenue.

Of course they are, they are in business to make a profit.

[NickN]

they are in business to make a profit.


Or not..... they lost $118m last quarter.

Is there a major place for QF in Australian aviation in 20 years time as a full cost carrier? That's the million dollar question.

[Daniel F]

Or not..... they lost $118m last quarter.


Where did you get that from? Qantas doesn't release quarterly results, only half yearly.

[Michael Morrison]

Regardless of the exact details it is clear QF are making a loss as their full year is expected to be well below their first half results.

[Lee G]

The Gordon geckos of Australia and the rest of the world will not put up with travelling in Y W or J class for too long after the downturn starts to climb again - status in their world is everything.

Just as you have seen a cutback in the bad times, when the good times return - and they will, it will just take time - there will be people to take up the premium product.

What has happened in the last 10 years is that the cost of travel has decreased to capture the low end market and that base is still traveling (thank god!) so now there are more passengers in Y W .... but increased J and a return to P will happen.

In the meantime, airlines will modify their product to achieve the best return from their assets.

It is those airlines which can do this successfully that will be around in 5 years time. I believe QF is one of those airlines - as much as people deride them - they do know how to return a profit from limited sources.

[Jack B]

I believe the earlier 747-438's (1989, 1990 etc) are due to be phased out soon, so the newer 744 fleet will need to have at least some aircraft configured as 3 class, wouldn't they?

[Ash W]

Jack, Qantas have not yet annouced any specific plans for the retirement of the early build 747's.

But yes there will always be a need for a 3 class 747.

[Andrew Ewen]

Hi Andrew, please refrain from quoting the whole previous post in your post, it is not necessary, thank you - mod


correct -there will always be a need for a 3 class a/c : Y ;Y+ ; J ;)

Now that QF have begun the move to lie-flat beds in J it will become increasingly harder for companies to justify the extra cost for F .

Yes , there will always be a small number of individuals who are prepared to pay F , but the question becomes at what point is that number too small to justify the additional costs to QF of operating an F cabin ?

Not only have a large number of airlines discontinued F as mentioned by previous posters, but many of those who have retained it offer it on only select routes and with far fewer seats in those cabins than ever before ( just as an example AF now only offer F cabins on 777s with 4 seats on the -200ER and 8 seats on the -300ER , I believe that on the A380 they are going to offer a 9 seat F cabin - there is no F on the A330 / A340 or 744 fleets and even some of the 777-300ERs do not have F - and this is a carrier that doesnt even have lie-flat seats in J to undermine their F market)

I suspect that the newer 744s will gradually find themselves converted to Y , Y+ and J for the remainder of their service life with the old first generation sloped Skybeds being scrapped and replaced by the flat version now available on QFs A380s . Any route that can still justify F will be served by the A380

[Ash W]

The beginning of the end..... Qantas just took the first step toward becoming a LCC.

Nick sometimes stop and think before you write.

Qantas are clearly adjusting their product to suit the market. Simple as that.

It does not spell the end of their business model, if anything it shows they have the flexibility to adjust to changing market conditions within the existing model.

Now if the news was Qantas replacing those routes with Jetstar you MIGHT, repeat MIGHT have a valid point. But the point above is pure un-informed and ill thought rot.

[Mike W]

In this week's Fleetbuzz Editorial, he talks about Air New Zealand (specifically) and others who've moved away from the first class product whle still maintaining three classes with the introduction of Premium Economy. This is also alongside discussion about Air NZ's new advert campaign "Nothing to Hide"

http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/

Nothing To Hide

Air New Zealand’s new advert brazenly claiming that its fares have “nothing to hide” certainly is an eye-catcher - in part down to the artwork that had been painstakingly applied to various members of its staff and also because the carrier may also have the innovative edge on its other full-service rivals. Continues

[NickN]

Now if the news was Qantas replacing those routes with Jetstar you MIGHT, repeat MIGHT have a valid point

Ash why don't you just give us a quick rundown of the routes QF has already sacrificed to JQ.......

It's not ill thought rot, it's a sign Qantas is being reduced to a shadow of its former self through increased competition and that JQ will eventually become the primary income earner for the group. Eventually what choice will they have but to go low cost or perish?

They may retain a few Intl routes but what good will that do?

[Kelvin R]

I must be flying a different QF than the one you are talking about Nick as the majority of my domestic flights have only a few spare seats on them. I do 2 to 3 return trips a month and have done so for the last 10 years. So I do @ 100 sectors a year on QF all in. I have flown through 9/11 and SARS, as well as the AN collapse (on QF). I don't share your thoughts as someone who gets to choose which airline I fly as long as QF fly to my destination at or near the time I need to go and are within range of a DJ or JQ fare I will always take the QF option.

This is backed by the last set of earnings released by QF which showed that Domestic, QFLink and Jetstar were all holding up well and it is only international that is suffering. Like others have mentioned when the GFC is forgotten in 18mths time premium travel will return. What will happen however is some organisations will stick with PE and J, others will return to First and some who have been flying PE and J due to the cheap fares that used to fly Y will remain in those premium cabins.

The two brand strategy appears to be working well for QF, the only error I can see is changing NZ domestic over to JQ has sent a number of trans tasman flyers like myself into the arms of NZ for this travel. Likewise the delay in A380 and 787 aircraft have made the QF Y product uncompetitive with the likes of NZ, EK, EY and others.

QF is not without its challenges, you only need to pick up a copy of AFR to see that however the call of death of QF and the rise of JQ is at best early and at worst misguided and factually incorrect.

[Daniel F]

If you argue that by removing F class means Qantas are heading towards the LCC model, does that mean when Qantas took out Y seats (and not J seats) and replaced them with premium economy, they were taking steps to become a business-only airline?

[NickN]

however the call of death of QF and the rise of JQ is at best early and at worst misguided and factually incorrect.


The facts are..... QF have handed over routes to JQ because QF could not manage them based on their own full service model.

QF have now handed over NZ domestic ops completely to JQ.

JQ are growing ever bigger in the Intl market while QF cut back flights and capacity.

QF are going to run a loss this half, JQ will be profitable.

Plus JQ will now operate into YMML to compete with DJ and TT so their own subsidiary will eat away at their pax. Will businesses still send their staff with QF if they can buy that seat cheaper with JQ? Its a 1 hour flight a meal or snack from QF wont make a difference.

I understand your a loyal QF supporter, thats great, QF needs people like you, you are what keeps QF going.

Moving forward however it is highly likely QF will face even harder challenges than those being faced currently.

[Daniel F]

Will businesses still send their staff with QF if they can buy that seat cheaper with JQ? Its a 1 hour flight a meal or snack from QF wont make a difference.


So why aren't business customers flocking over to DJ at the moment?

[NickN]

Here is a great story from The Australian.....

Qantas loses money as Jetstar, QantasLink and the QF Frequent Flyer program make money
Tuesday, 21 April 2009



A report in The Australian by Andrew Main, Business Editor over the weekend paints a pretty dire picture for Qantas, with the report quoting Geoff Dixon in his farewell speech to shareholders on November 28 as saying, "I leave Qantas very confident indeed of its soundness as a business, the depth and talent of its management team and the scale and quality of its operations."

With Dixon handing over to current CEO Alan Joyce, The Australian says its a statement worth dissecting a few short months later as Joyce dramatically remoulds the business.

First, how "sound" is the business today?
For the first time since the SARS epidemic of 2002-03, Qantas is running at a loss, as chief financial officer Colin Storrie admitted last week, adding that back then the airline cut 4,000 jobs in one go.

Joyce was quick to point out yesterday that Qantas was in good company as "the vast majority of long-haul, full-service airlines are losing money".

He wants us to know we're in a different world from November 28, when Qantas shares were at $2.32 as they dipped last week to $1.74 before staging a recovery to close up 4c at $2.

Asked whether he'd been expecting conditions as bad as this when he took over, Joyce replied that "this has not been forecastable", picking the collapse of Wall Street investment bank Lehman Brothers on September 18 as the moment when things started to turn seriously nasty, which suggests a bit over two months of night terrors before he even started the top job.

Was it tough being the chief executive of Qantas at the moment?
"It's tough being the CEO of any airline at the moment," said Joyce, who's not quite the professional Cassandra that his predecessor Dixon liked to be, but he's working on it. He did say later that yesterday was his toughest day in the job so far.

Since Dixon announced his resignation in July, Qantas has reduced its pre-tax profit target from about $751 million to $500 million, and then to $100 million-$200 million.

"The last quarter was the worst performance that we've seen to date," Joyce said.

Qantas has, unfairly or not, also been battling perceptions that safety and customer satisfaction standards have slipped., with a series of mid-air incidents damaging one of Qantas's most valuable assets - its Rain Man-inspired reputation for safety.

Qantas is addressing the perception issue and, as Joyce pointed out, twice, yesterday Qantas's on-time record for domestic flights for the past six months has been better than Virgin's. That's one benefit of the reduction in aircraft movements.

The other line he took is that passengers won't miss much, since Qantas won't be pulling out of routes but just reducing frequency slightly, and the number of jobs being lost looks to mirror the grounding of 10 aircraft.

At least cash isn't a problem as fuel prices have thumped back to affordable after a horror spell last year and Joyce putting off $800million in capital expenditure for next year by delaying aircraft deliveries, and the airline also raised $500million without difficulty.

So what of the "depth and talent" of the management pool?
Someone pulled the plug as they're axing 590 management jobs as Joyce has quickly stamped his authority on the airline.

Almost all of Dixon's key managers have gone, including CFO Peter Gregg and John Borghetti after missing out on the top job.

What about the "scale and quality of its operations"?

This is a case of never mind the width, feel the quality.

While the international business-class and Qantas domestic lines struggle, the airline is making good money from Jetstar, QantasLink and the Frequent Flyer program, which as Storrie said yesterday has at least $2billion in deferred revenue waiting to hit the bottom line.

The best way to look at Qantas now seems to be to draw a veil over the expansionist hoopla of last year, which included Dixon hosting a junket to Toulouse to pick up the first giant Airbus A380., with Qantas taking 10 A380s in all but numbers 7 through 10 "can take a deferral of a year" as Joyce put it, so they'll actually be getting six in the near future.

"What you haven't seen, you won't miss" sums up Joyce's approach for coming months, with clearly the cuts affecting Qantas staff more than its passengers.


http://www.etravelblackboard.com.au/showarticle.asp?id=91132&nav=2

[NickN]

DJ already have a decent share of business class travelers. Obviously not more than QF but a fair amount.

The reason they havent all flocked to DJ? Because you can earn QF FF points traveling JQ and you can't with DJ.

[Daniel F]

So a meal or snack won't make a difference... but 1000 Qantas FF points will?

[Rhys Xanthis]

So a meal or snack won't make a difference... but 1000 Qantas FF points will?

Not to mention that you can still get loyalty rewards in the form of velocity from VB.

[Ash W]

The facts are..... QF have handed over routes to JQ because QF could not manage them based on their own full service model.

QF have now handed over NZ domestic ops completely to JQ.

JQ are growing ever bigger in the Intl market while QF cut back flights and capacity.

QF are going to run a loss this half, JQ will be profitable.

Plus JQ will now operate into YMML to compete with DJ and TT so their own subsidiary will eat away at their pax. Will businesses still send their staff with QF if they can buy that seat cheaper with JQ? Its a 1 hour flight a meal or snack from QF wont make a difference.

I understand your a loyal QF supporter, thats great, QF needs people like you, you are what keeps QF going.

Moving forward however it is highly likely QF will face even harder challenges than those being faced currently.


Nick, Qantas are adjusting their businessed (inlcuding Jetstar) to cater for demand. Qantas as we know it will be around for a long time to come, same too with Jetstar. Sure Jetstar will take on more Qantas routes and no doubt in time Qantas will start some new routes themselves, but it is not the end of their model. Simple as that.

PS as for this first class business, unless I am miss reading there are no plans to rip first class seats out. All they are have done is stopped selling first on certain routes. No doubt when demand rises again they will start selling it again. So for the time being it will be good for the loyal customers, who will no doubt get first dibs at the first class seats and good for the airline as a whole, until the current fiscal crisis is over.

[Andrew Ewen]

...PS as for this first class business, unless I am miss reading there are no plans to rip first class seats out. All they are have done is stopped selling first on certain routes. No doubt when demand rises again they will start selling it again. ....

I think that should read " there are no plans to rip first class seats out at this stage" .

If demand rises to a sufficient level then I am sure that they will start selling F again on these routes , on the other hand , If demand does not rise on these routes and continues to fall on other routes then I am sure that QF will review the F question again .

It was not all that many years ago that QF operated F on most/all of their international network , and I am sure that if we could go back in time we would see that some people thought it was the beginning of the end of QF when most routes started to go to 2 class.

I am pretty sure that in a few years if QF retain F class at all it will only be on a handful of the A380 routes .... is that the end of civililsation as we know it ? No , not even the end of QF as we know it , just a reflection of changing times and travel patterns .

The fact that QF is responding to those changes actually gives me more confidence in their long term future , not less . It is those carriers who stick to the "we have always done it this way" model of thinking who will disappear.

[Ash W]

The fact that QF is responding to those changes actually gives me more confidence in their long term future , not less . It is those carriers who stick to the "we have always done it this way" model of thinking who will disappear.


Very true Andrew. That is the point I was trying to get through to Nick in particular.

[Owen H]

Qantas have operated 3 class aircraft on routes and sold them as 2 class (using the old terminology before that pesky premium econ!) before... and they haven't had first class on some LA and all FRA flights for a long time.

If you can't sell a seat as a first class seat, but have a fighting chance of selling it as a business class seat, then it makes perfect sense to do so.

I agree with those that believe that this is a sign that Qantas is at least taking steps to mitigate the premium issues that are there at the moment. I'd far rather them sell a few 744 flights as Business than depart with 14 empty seats to preserve the first class image.

[NickN]

Ash, I do understand your point. Lets get that clear. You and I just have differing opinions.

[Ash W]

Ash, please do not quote the whole post directly above you, it is not necessary. Please use the reply button instead -mod


So what do you think Qantas should do then? Just sit stale and then fail, or put in place things like JQ or adjust their product to suit market conditions?

[NickN]

Ash, the real question is..... How far will Qantas have to slash product to stay in the game and be profitable?

Will they have to cut back to the point where there is very little that distinguishes them from their LCC competitors apart from the paint on the planes?

[NickN]

So why aren't business customers flocking over to DJ at the moment?

Daniel F.... This story in todays SMH may prove they are......

Virgin Blue Holdings says it saw an increase in domestic and international customers in April and over the year to date.

The low-cost carrier said today domestic passenger numbers in April increased by 3.1 per cent on the previous corresponding period to 1.3 million.

International passenger numbers in April increased by 62.6 per cent on the previous year to over 209,000.

Virgin Blue's V Australia airline, flying from Australia's east coast to the west coast of the United States, began operating in March.

In the ten months to April, there was a 5.6 per cent increase in domestic passenger numbers to 13.6 million, Virgin Blue said.

International passengers for the same period increased by 70.5 per cent on the previous corresponding period to 1.78 million.

Virgin Blue said its measurement of revenues per passenger also increased for domestic and international passengers during these periods.

[Andrew P]

Nick

no it deos not, where does it say the increase is market share being taken from the QF group?

[Michael Mak]

Nick bear in mind that the international passenger numbers include V Australia's passengers - an airline that did not exist 12 months ago.

Even if QF is cutting first class, they are still a long way off to become LCC. What's the point of having empty first class seats when noone is willing to fly on them?

[NickN]

Andrew, please note I said.....

This story in todays SMH may prove

I didn't say it was absolute, undeniable evidence. It would be fair to assume however that a portion of those extra passengers were QF customers.


Michael..... regardless of International OR domestic, those extra customers had to come from somewhere, they didn't just materialize. In order for V Australia to fill seats they had to poach from either United or Qantas. The same goes for the increase in domestic pax numbers, they had to come from somewhere meaning JQ or QF.

JQ already offer competitive prices, so it would be hard to see a pax booking with DJ over JQ when the prices are almost identical. It makes sense that a pax who was with QF at $125 each way economy would book DJ $89 each way economy OR book DJ premium economy as an alternate to QF business.

[Justin L]

Nick, why can't the passengers "just materialise"? While some may come from other airlines, reduced fares can just as easily encourage those who wouldn't have travelled in the first place. Domestically, passengers who would normally travel by private car, bus or rail may also be encouraged to fly instead. They can create new markets, not just fight for an existing slice of the pie.

As for QF moving towards becoming a LCC, mainline US, European and Japanese airlines have limited services on their domestic flights compared with Qantas on similar distance/time sectors. QF are currently ahead of comparable airlines on that basis in my opinion.

[Daniel F]

The reason for the improved passenger numbers in April 2009 compared to April 2008 is because Easter was in April in 2009 and was in March in 2008. If you look at the March numbers, the passenger numbers fell for both Qantas and Virgin.

So yes, the passengers did just materialise... in time for the Easter holidays.

I'm willing to bet that when Qantas releases their numbers, they will see an increase in April in 2009 relative to 2008.

[Ash W]

Ash, the real question is..... How far will Qantas have to slash product to stay in the game and be profitable?

Will they have to cut back to the point where there is very little that distinguishes them from their LCC competitors apart from the paint on the planes?

They are actually not slashing that much, but changing the product to suit market conditions.

The board isn't silly, they know the real value of the company is in the brand and they will do what ever they can to protect the brand. Yet at the same time they have an obligation to their share holders to maintain and grow the value of the company as a whole (including Jetstar), and hence increase the value of the stocks.

You will see in lean times like now more of a reliance on Jetstar to prop up the bottom line, but when the good times return (and they will, history has shown this before) they will adjust their product to maximise their returns.

Seems like a very smart way to run a business.

[BradR]

QF's model is under severe pressure and whilst they are responding, there is no doubt that there is a long way to go. Alan Joyce is fairly hard-headed about all of this and is not particularly wedded to the old QF in any big way so probably won't be too upset if the airline and business he ends up with is different from what it was as long as it is profitable and adds shareholder value.

A good summary of the threat facing QF domestic was published recently by Ben Sandilands in his excellent Plane Talking column http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2009/05/22/virgin-blue-piles-the-pressure-onto-qantas-with-latest-traffic-figures/

QF is not responsible for the situation they find themselves in but they have to change if they are to survive. Personally I believe First Class is a bit of a dead-duck and is unlikely to be around long-term. Business Class is now a better product than First Class was only 10 years ago so it is doubtful that business people will need the First product ever again. For example the new CEO of Telstra has banned travel in First for everyone including himself. He flew Y+ to London last month.

Y+ is very similar to the product QF itself invented when it introduced Business Class over 20 years ago.

QF has significant issues with its international product but probably even more in mainline domestic. Companies increasingly just don't see the need for flying their staff on a a full-service carrier on short haul services. DJ once appeared to be allowing itself to be outflanked by QF/JQ but it now seems they may have the type of product that QF mainline domestic will have to evolve itself into with changes such as charges for meals, charges for checked luggage and charges for exit row seating. It will be interesting to see how many QF FF's use JQ's MEL-SYD-MEL services out of Tullamarine when it starts/ They will still have access to the QF Club and only have to survive 1.5 hours without the dubious extras provided by mainline.

QF domestic business class will be replaced by a Y+ product similar to DJ (and BA, AF etc) within a year. The current product just doesn't make sense any longer and is rapidly becoming only used by politicians, frequent flyers burning points, a shrinking number of business people spending their shareholders' money and QF staff travelling non-rev.

I work across several companies of around 100-250 staff and all have done away with QF domestic for all travel except for a couple of CEOs and the CEOs only fly Y, never J. Whether they ever go back to QF is doubtful but not whilst the typical fare differential between QF and DJ on a MEL-SYD-MEL fare is about $120 for similar fare conditions.

Brad

[Adrian B]

and all have done away with QF domestic for all travel except for a couple of CEOs and the CEOs only fly Y, never J. Whether they ever go back to QF is doubtful but not whilst the typical fare differential between QF and DJ on a MEL-SYD-MEL fare is about $120 for similar fare conditions.

Brad

Have to agree here, we are doing the same thing. I also think days are numbered of businesses taking the fully flexible option as well.

Just taking an example of Melb - Adl return. If we fund 10 trips at saver fares (v Fully Flex) we are saving approxy $30,000 per year. Even if there are instances where our guys need to go to another flight, or be put up in a motel, you cannot discount that type of saving.

[Phillippe M]

Qantas to charge fees for exit-row economy seats
The Daily Telegraph | May 26, 2009 12:01am

- Qantas introduces new fees
- Charging for reserving exit-row seats
- Move follows Vigin Blue

QANTAS will penalise the tall by charging passengers extra for reserving economy class exit-row seats on its international flights.

Passengers looking for more leg room will be charged an extra $160 on long-haul flights, and $80 per sector on short-haul flights to Asia and New Zealand.

The charge will net the airline more than $2500 each flight and will begin next month.

An airline spokesman said yesterday: "This will give customers greater choice and access to seats that offer more leg room."

The move follows similar charges employed by Virgin Blue across its domestic routes.

Introduction of the fee comes at the same time the airline begins forcing its uber wealthy travellers to "slum it" in business class on selected international flights.

Qantas will cut its first-class service from 42 weekly flights because of a drop in demand caused by the financial crisis.

First to be cut back will be its 747 flights between Sydney and San Francisco and Buenos Aires and the daily service from Melbourne to London.

The 14 first-class seats will be blended into business class.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,25539271-5014090,00.html

[Rhys Xanthis]

Err...Not sure what to think of this one really, as a pretty tall person...not sure i would want to pay $160...but I've never taken a 14 hour flight!

I certainly wouldn't pay $80 for a trans tasman flight.

[NickN]

QF really are doing everything they can to alienate their customers thats for sure.

[Sarah C]

I have mixed views on it - lets face it, most people want exit rows (particularly on international flights) so the demand is always there. However, the main people who seem to get them are your Platinum FF so that does rule out a lot of people (like tall people) who don't fly all that often.

It seems a little short sighted to me - they are looking at it in the short term and will probably make a nice profit but there will be a lot of annoyed FFer's. In saying that, other international carriers already do something similiar.

I think the reaction will be negative from FFer's and tall people but probably postive from other travellers.

[Ash W]

Legroom aside they are pretty crappy seats actually. I recently did LHR-SIN in premium Y on the A380 and had the exit row and it was shocking. Passengers and crew walking past all night to get to the toilet (even more annoying when two rows behind was the galley area where they could have got through easier.

Then BKK-LHR on a 747 in the economoy exit row. There you don't have people walking by, but a lot loiter for the toilets and the seats are not quite as comfortable, maybe as the tray and video are in the arm rests. And with the window seat you have to contend with the exit slide.

Overall I wouldn't pay for an exit row, but then again I am not a tall person either.

[Rhys Xanthis]

the seats are narrower too iirc, i just remembered.

seat width is just as important as pitch imo...the flying on the e190 was so comfortable.

[Rhys Xanthis]

Only if you're fat...

...and tall:o

[NickN]

I'm fat and tall.... 155kg and 6'4" so no matter what it'd be uncomfortable.

[Mike W]

Fleetbuzz Editorial on the subject along with the "A380 effect"

http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/