QF94 a regular Sydney visitor?

[Jason Le]

QF94 (LAX-MEL) is again into Sydney this morning. This time though its an A380. I thought the A380 had the ability to go the distance even in strong headwinds?

The 747 has also been in regularly recently but no surprises there.

[Owen H]

Recently there has been a lot of fog and low cloud in Melbourne in the mornings, and the days that there hasn't, it has been forecast anyway.

The A380 and 744-ER have a great range, but they don't usually have the fuel to fly to Melbourne and then divert back to Sydney, and so if there is fog forecast in Melbourne it will usually either drop straight into Sydney, or if they think it will lift, will fly as far past Sydney as they can, and if the forecast doesn't change, will turn around back to Sydney.

[NickN]

How much does it take off the bottom line of the flight to have to pay landing fees for YSSY + extra fuel?

[Andrew P]

The A380 and 744-ER have a great range, but they don't usually have the fuel to fly to Melbourne and then divert back to Sydney,

so which airports do theu have as their official alternatives then?

Banjo

[Anthony J]

The flights dispatch with a nominated decision point which is the last point enroute that they can divert to an alternate or continue to the destination. If the destination requires an alternate and the fuel simply cannot be uplifted then the flight is refiled via Sydney or Nadi. Enroute the conditions in Melbourne could improve so the flight is refiled in flight to head for Melbourne.
If an alternate is not required for Melbourne a decision point is still nominated on the flight plan.

[Andrew P]

but what happens when it past the point where it can divert, and the plane in front crashes on landing closing the airport, ???

my understanding all plane must have enough fuel on landing to divert an authorized alternate

[Owen H]

Andrew P,

You are mistaken. They do not require one.

That said, pilots are very aware of their options, and you'll find that in the vast majority of situations there is an option which can be reached safely, but may not be a nominated Alternate.

Avalon, Richmond, Amberley, Pearce are examples. If an aircraft crashed and closed the runways at the major airport, then a flight could safely land at these aerodromes, even though they are not approved Alternates, only Emergency airports.

[Andrew P]

can someone confirm Owen comments are correct?

if so learn something new every day

Banjo

[Erik H. Bakke]

There may be differences in regulatory requirements for alternates depending on whether the flight is operating under ETOPS or not.

[Mick B]

can someone confirm Owen comments are correct?

if so learn something new every day

Banjo

Yes, what Owen has stated is Qantas policy, other airline's may differ slightly. For example, Singapore Airlines apparently carry enough fuel for a full diversion from the destination.

Qantas policy obviously fulfils/exceeds any CAO requirements.

[Owen H]

As Mick says, it is the policy of some operators... others do it other ways.

Before we go down the line that QF are less safe than SQ in arrival fuel (and I'm not going to discuss individual airline fuel policy in great detail), I believe SQ do carry an alternate to all destinations, however that does not mean that they always arrive over their destination with more fuel. You need to go into a lot more detail about how they define their alternates, and the minimum fuel they are allowed to arrive at their destinations with, to make that assessment.

My point was simply that CASA do not necessarily require you to carry an alternate at all times... remembering that all airlines' fuel policies have to be approved by CASA.

[Radi K]

It helps that the crew base for the 744 & 380 is in SYD...:rolleyes:

Fog cough..cough...:p

:cool:

[Owen H]

What are you suggesting Radi?

[Craig Murray]

Hey Radi, we're still waiting for your response to Owen re the crew base/fog post. Care to enlighten us or was this just another "I work for DJ" token comment about the opposition?!

C'mon buddy, enlighten us with a detailed answer. All I hear so far is crickets, lots of crickets..........

[Nigel C]

I must admit Radi, I'm curious as to your post too. As they say, put up or...

[Radi K]

Well indeed sincere apologies for not responding immediately, some of us have a life outside the forum.

The implication, as a joke, thus the smile was, that if I was a 744/380 crew and fog was forecast in MEL (or BNE for that matter) and I lived in SYD, I would be more personally inclined to divert to home than somewhere else, all things being equal.

If you had the chance to end up at home instead of a base away from home, I think you would all take home. Of course some crew commute etc, so this isn't a hard and fast rule. Just an observation.

It's not unique to QF at all. If crew can't get into OOL or MCY it's not uncommon to divert to BNE (a DJ Base) and for crew to terminate early. It's not unethical because no one can control the weather. Also, it's better to divert to a crew base to ensure the operation can continue with less restrictions unlike a diversion to a un crewed port. So please don't make this a tit for tat discussion Craig.

Today's fog was a perfect example of the implications of crew running out of hours.

As long time members, you need to lighten up and stop taking everything so personally & literally.

I shall be sure to keep discussion fully professional from now on. How dare anyone question a pilots integrity on this forum of all places, especially a Qantas pilot.

[Nigel C]

Radi, I didn't take it as a direct slur on the integrity of Qantas pilots as such, but you did leave your post rather open-ended.

[Adam.S]

This flight is again diverting to Sydney this morning, after departing Los Angeles on time according to flightstats.com.

Does anyone know why? Scheduled for just a 30 min stopover so perhaps needing a top-up of fuel?

[Anthony J]

The Melbourne TAF had thunderstorms added after the flight left LA.

[Adam.S]

Thanks Anthony but excuse my ignorance here; wouldn't the TAF be updated the closer this flight came to the Australian mainland?

As to my knowledge it turned out there were no thunderstorms around Melbourne yesterday morning. QF 94 was the only international flight delayed.

[Owen H]

A TAF is updated, usually every 6 hours.

The initial TAF (according to AJ) had no thunderstorms forecast, but as you say, it was updated getting closer to the mainland, the forecasters added thunderstorms to the forecast.

As they get closer they can also make use of a TTF... Trend Type Forecast, which is updated every 30mins and valid for 3 hours. They would have checked the MEL TTF prior to Sydney, and if it had Thunderstorms on it, then they would divert into Sydney.

The weather that is present in a city is largely irrelivant... it is what the forecast says that is.

Even if the MET people think there is a 30% chance of thunderstorms in this situation, the aircraft diverts. Thunderstorms are a funny one, because it will usually remain on the forecast for a long time, as the forecasters will see big buildups that could, at any moment, develop into a TS. They often never form, or never affect the airport, but if they COULD, then they go on the forecast.

[Adam.S]

QF94 was in Sydney again today (VH-OQC), arriving approx 10:30am.
Anyone know why on this occasion? I believe the flight also departed from LAX late aswell.

cheers


**update**
QF94 departed Sydney after an aircraft change, VH-OJD continued onto Melbourne.

[Jason H]

probably cause OQC departed as QF11 today. Saves the a/c going to MEL and then coming back to SYD to be a few hours late anyway.

Btw just guessing OQC operated QF11. Not sure.

[Adam.S]

Thanks Jason, you're correct.
OQC operated QF11 this afternoon, OQB on QF31.
OQA wasn't put to use, today after returning with QF12.

Still seems like an unplanned chain of events today with QF94, as the aircraft which flew the last leg into Melbourne today(VH-OJD), returned to Sydney and then operated QF5. However this flight's departure was delayed approx 3 hours.

[Jason H]

yeah i can't explain that. What I want to know is how passengers would feel after spending money to fly on the A380 which is delayed, then diverted to SYD, before an aircraft change with less premium economy seats, almost half the business seats, and no first class.

And how could they fit all the pax on that a/c anyway?? Almost all flights from the USA are full at the moment.

[Adam.S]

and if OQC was always 'scheduled' to go out yesterday afternoon on QF11, why couldn't Qantas leave VH-OQA on QF94?

As they both departed LAX together on the same night (wednesday LA local time)

Perhaps the A380 roster is a little unflexible.
Also with OQB now fixed to the SYD-LHR route, it seems Qantas have made things a little hard for themselves.

The sooner VH-OQD gets here the better!

[Adam.S]

This morning's QF94 (LAX-MEL) VH-OQD, has been diverted to Sydney.
In terms of time and distance, the flight looked to be running on-time for its scheduled 9:50am arrival into Melbourne.
Is it known why this flight required a diversion: Low on fuel due to headwinds or medical reasons?

cheers

[NickN]

On its way to Melbourne now, just passing Canberra at FL380.