Plane Spotters at Sydney - Join In!

[Scott Willis]

Attention Plane Spotter enthusiasts at Sydney Airport!

Do you want to be involved in Airport Watch, an airport safety program designed to utilise the observation skills of plane spotters to report any suspicious activity around the airport perimeter?

The Australian Federal Police will be launching a pilot program at Sydney Airport. While planning for the program is in its early stages, we would like to hear from plane spotters themselves, what they would like to see. Those interested would submit a form (possibly electronically) and be subjected to criminal history checks. Assuming everything is OK, they would be issued some form of ID card which identified them as an Airport Watch member. It is anticipated there would be some sort of fee involved, though it yet to be determined what that might be.

In return, if plane spotters observe suspicious activity around the airport, they would ring 131 AFP to report the matter, or 000 if the matter required immediate police response. In return, as a reward, members may be offered free airside bus tours, simulator flights or airside access to get up close to those planes you want to photograph. Anything is possible, I'm not ruling anything in or out at the moment.

The program has the support of the AFP. Register your interest through this thread, or for more details contact Sgt Scott Willis at the AFP - scott.willis@afp.gov.au.




The AFP has been in contact with the Administration Team from the Sydney Airport Message Board and both parties are currently in discussion to determine the most appropriate forum for future discussions regarding the specifics of the Airport Watch program.

Your involvement and contributions are important and valued, and will be considered during the planning process.
More details will be released soon.

[Sarmad Al-Khozaie]

Hi Scott,

I am intereseted in this pilot program, What is required.

feel free to contact me via Private Messages.

Regards.

[Matt_L]

Scott,

Great news.

I am definitely interested in addition to Sarmad.

Cheers

[BernieL]

Hi Scott,

I think this is a brilliant idea,

[Gerard M]

Will this "card" extend to supplying identification and whether we see anything "suspicious" when we get pulled up at other surrounding airports such as RAAF bases and interstate airports. As i know the people at Canberra sometimes get a bit ancy and the base security at Richmond will usually come over if they see you.
Also, the fee sounds like a reasonable idea but as its only early stages, is it looking at an annual fee or a once off? Any ball park figures?

[Sarah C]

Hi Scott,

Count me in - you can PM if you like.

[Brian Wilkes]

Great idea, we need this sort of thing in Melbourne!
I would be interested!

[Jason H]

Count me in! More info please:D

[damien b]

Good idea and one that should be incorporated at all major airports. Certainly interested

[Benny Zheng]

I might not be a local but i don't mind helping out and keeping our hobby alive.

[Dan Hammond]

Great news, would be great if something like this happened in Melbourne too.

[Greg McDonald]

Great idea and long overdue.

[Craig Lindsay]

cool .count me in.would love to do it

[Lee G]

Scott,

I'm definately intrested. Is the background check the same as the one conducted for an ASIC and if so are current ASIC holders still required be background checked or will an exemption apply. (I know it's early days...)

Feel free to PM me.

[Philip Argy]

I've sent you an email - thanks for organising this, Scott.

[Gareth Forwood]

Scott, what can I say, this is an amazing idea. I'd definately sign up if it was put in place!!

[Michael Mak]

I'm interested too, count me in! :)

[Scott Willis]

Wow! What can I say, I think we've let the genie out of the bottle, I'm surprised just how many emails are starting to filter through. Apologies to those who I've already responded by email, the following is a cut and paste. What the AFP is trying to achieve is to harness the observation skills of 'plane spotters', so that if they saw something or someone who looked out of place around the airport, they could 'observe and report' the matter to police, through the AFP hotline 131 AFP (131237). Those 'plane spotters' who registered with the program would be subject to background police checks (but I'd have to say plane spotters are mostly law abiding citizens anyway). The question of identifying these 'plane spotters' - I had the idea of issuing an ASIC style card, though with the price of an ASIC card around $190, even if it was subsidised to a certain degree, no-one would join. We're working through that one. Overseas programs have hi-viz vests with 'plane-spotter' on the back. I thought I'd like to see some sort of a rewards program such as free airside bus tour of simualtor flight, but from what I can gather what most plane spotters would like is better access - SACL are very keen to see this program take off, so I hope a point I'd be able to negotiate is access to more suitable viewing/photographing points. The idea of Airport Watch in Sydney is gathering pace, and I'm sure if successful, it won't be long before it is rolled out across Australia. I'll keep you posted and try and respond to your emails, for those of you who have responded thank you, if you'r in contact with other plane spotters, spread the word.

[Michael Atkin]

Hi Scott,
This sounds like an amazing idea and would love to get some more info on this, feel free to PM me at any time.

[Bob C]

Something similar for spotters was established in Melbourne more than 3 years ago and I signed up and paid my $20.

However, the ID card was never received as it had to be collected in person which made it a bit difficult as I live in Perth. I joined up as being an ex Melburnian I travel there several times a year so thought the ID card would be useful. No mention was made of the collection in person requirement at the outset so I asked for a refund and am still waiting (ie given up !).

But more importantly, the Aircraft Enthusiasts of W A (AEGWA) led the way with the ID card / Airport Watch idea for Perth airport way back in 1998 (long before 9/11) when I was a committee member. I still have the original ID card and Letter of Authority which were issued in 1998.

Spotters in other states sought AEGWA's assistance when setting up their own groups / airport watches but I'm unaware if any (other than perhaps in Melbourne) were ever established.

And Perth spotters and visiting aircraft enthusiasts could receive some very BIG news shortly.

[Bob C]

Hi Scott

Sorry, I forgot to mention that if you want more background information about what we established in Perth and what may be in prospect then feel free to email me at coppos@bigpond.net.au.

There are others on this board who are current members of AEGWA so they may be able to help as well.

[Robert S]

Nice to see the positive attitude from all sides... and Scott, you can count me in as interested in the idea as well.

[Michael Wright]

Hi Scott,

It sounds like an absolute cracker of an idea. I'm definitely interested in it.
Feel free to PM me.

[Stephen Brown]

Yeah, I'm in as well.

[KrishnaM]

amazing idea.. im in as well

[Darren Butterworth]

Good idea Scott - I've emailed you.

Darren

[Peter Agatsiotis]

The AFP guys were out near the GA fence on Sunday and got most of us to provide our details so they can set up a 'local' database of all 'spotters' who regularly visit SYD. I told them that I gave this info to the AFP in Brisbane a couple of years ago but they said 'this was a local thing'. They handed out cards with the 131AFP number.

Still, count me in.

[Craig Sandford]

I'm interested as well

[phil.l]

Sounds good to me as well.

[Roy R.X.]

Would love to be part of this!

[Jeff T]

Count me in too please Scott!


Cheers,
Jeff.

[Stephen Harris]

Count me in as well.

regards

Steve

[Rod Sloan]

Count me in too.

Could be useful also if the whole AFP across the country were aware of this so that if you were at another airport, the card would be instantly recognised.

[Morris Biondi]

I'm in, I've been asking for something like this for years. Hopefully it will eventuate.

[Seth Jaworski]

Sounds like a great idea- count me in too.

[Mark T]

Hi Scott

It is great to see this initiative. Count me in - I will eamil you tonight.

Cheers
Mark

[Tim Bowrey]

Im in boys! PM me if required

[Dan Collins]

Though it's a bit of a trip for me to get to the airport, I wouldn't mind helping out where I can. I also have friends who spot more regularly than I and they might like to help out (they're not on this forum) as well.

Dan

[Brenden S]

It's a great idea.
Instead of ringing the number and a person overhearing the conversation perhaps a mobile phone number that we could send a sms to would be a option to?

I agree with Lee G, if people hold a ASIC, surely that would be a given that all the required checks have been completed and that it is done every 2 years.

As for rewards, great idea however would be difficult to administer well enough. I do like the idea of "close up" action.

Also a data base of interstate people would be a great idea.

How often is current items of interest reported and how often do they turn out to be the real deal?

[Danny Rizk]

Great idea and also interested!

[andrew evans]

I'm in

[Micheil Keegan]

Count me in, sounds like a fantastic idea.

Micheil

[Debra Rettie]

Count me in too, I think its a great idea

[Darryl Schlodder]

I'm in as well.

[Matthew Chisholm]

Count me in as well :)

[Russell D]

Great idea. Benefits for both sides + more eyes looking out for anything unusual. I like it. Count me in too. :)

[John Thoroughgood]

Very keen to also be a part of this, particularly something which has the added benefit of protecting our hobby.
I will however be out of touch, in the US from Nov 8 for four weeks.
Cheers John.

[James Herbert]

Great idea.

I'm up for it...

[Tony G]

Finally, I can make use of the many hours spent at the airport:p. If i can help Im in.:)

[Matt Coughran]

I think like every man and his dog who are on these message boards im very interested and would love to help out the AFP.

They understand and appreciate our passion then im all for returning the favour if it was needed.

[Justin Lane]

Scott, I'd like to sign up.

[Mark D]

Add me to the list too please.

Mark

[RakeshR]

Add me please

[Joseph Saragozza.]

count me in too mate ;)

[Warick M]

Seems like everyone is expressing interest, so is there any update as to what may or may not be happening with this idea?
To maintain interest perhaps progress reports or similar could be posted?

[albert vasquez]

count me in too!

[Jacques Brunelle]

It is thrilling to see such an overwhelming response to such a programme idea!

Reading from the first post, a specific blog for Airport Watch may be created yet. So I am not certain if this is where I can add my personal comments.

Such a programme as Airport Watch takes time to put into place especially when agencies and corporations are involved. I am not involved in Australia for the possible setting up of such a programme but if it is based on Airport Watch elsewhere, take a look at www.ottawaairportwatch.ca for more information. This is but one example of Airport Watch in other locations. A variation of this may happen yet in Australia and elsewhere. You can also go to "airport watch canada" on Google for the Toronto Airport Watch site. They have an extensive tour and activity site. I recall that they have 140 active volunteers just for the Toronto chapter. I have been involved in Airport Watch in North America for 10 years now so I thought that I could add a few thoughts here.

At this time, major airports in North America and Britain have Airport Watch in place. This is a win-win situation for all involved. Yes, that means spotters too! Currently in the UK there are programmes in place at London-Heathrow, London-Gatwick and others. In North America we have Montreal-Trudeau and Mirabel, Ottawa, Toronto-Pearson, Calgary, Minneapolis-St. Paul with Vancouver, Edmonton and Seattle-Tacoma in the works. An international association is in the works for the benefit of all programmes. Each Airport Watch chapter is set up to cater to each individual airport given each airport is unique. Flexibility is the way to go these days.

Reading through the blog here I noted that an Airport Watch type of programme began in Perth as far back as 1998! That is great news. It is impressive to see that such thinking began many years ago. In Canada, we go back only as far as 1999 where it began in Ottawa.

Continue to add your comments to this blog until told otherwise is my guess. Again, I am much impressed with the dedication to airport safety and I can add that there is no one better trained and equipped than genuine spotters to watch from the outside of our favorite hangouts!

Best regards and don't take your great spotting weather for granted! From one who watches in sub zero temps!

Jacques
Ottawa, ON Canada.

[Robbie W]

Sorry, but unless a Plane Spotters membership program is mainly designed to make it easier for the authorities to identify people regularly seen hanging around the perimeter of the airport (ie, spotters) I have several issues with the very concept.

For a start, I see no reason why anyone should pay a fee, no matter how small, just for the privilege of being an extra set of eyes and ears for the AFP, even if it is just to cover the administration costs of the program.

Sure, airport security is no joke, but if there are genuine risks, why not hire more security staff, pay them, and put plenty of extra signs around the airport perimeter fence with the AFP hotline number on it?

Will holding a spotter's membership card make you more 'vigilant' than you might already be? Does it help you in knowing how to (a) identify or (b) handle dangerous and/or deadly people and situations, or is that a job for suitably trained professionals?

Does paid membership come with some sort of training, no matter how basic, or at least some public information sessions on dealing with security risks and "suspicious behaviour", whatever that may be?

The natural enthusiasm spotters have for their pastime is understandable, but we do not want over-zealous spotters causing unnecessary false alarms or, worse, getting themselves into genuinely risky situations on their own.

[NeilP]

Hi Guys,
New Member!

I was in Adelaide recently, perched at the fence of the old carpark. I had the AFP drive up next to me, lights ablaze, and questions galore. Real sour *****s too. Now, I certainly understand what they were concerned about, and if I were able to produce some sort of "Spotter's I.D", we all would have felt much better about it. As it was I was able to carry on, but...

Great Forum guys, pleasure to be here...

Cheers,
Neil.

[Michael Lee]

Hey guys,

I'm just entering the world of plane spotting but I believe this is a great idea ! As an aircraft enthusiast I understand the importance of maintaining security around our airports. Every extra pair of eyes would increase the effectiveness of maintaining the security around our major airports.

I understand and encourage the use of an identification system with a thorough background check. It should be treated if you were an AFP employee as in a sense anyone can join, even the ones were are observing.

I see a small fee to ensure the credibility of members is not much of an ask.

Well that's my 2 cents and of course I would love to be a part of this !

Cheers,
Michael

[Ray P.]

Hi Guys,
New Member!

I was in Adelaide recently, perched at the fence of the old carpark. I had the AFP drive up next to me, lights ablaze, and questions galore. Real sour *****s too. Now, I certainly understand what they were concerned about, and if I were able to produce some sort of "Spotter's I.D", we all would have felt much better about it. As it was I was able to carry on, but...
....

Welcome Neil, unfortunately carrying a card won't guarantee that they won't be "Real sour *****s". Some of these guys are like that no matter what.

From my perspective, if I saw something dodgy, I would call the authorities as I am sure most here would, and I wouldn't need a card to do so. I am a little confused as to what the card will achieve. I mean, if you are out spotting and the AFP pull up, will they check your card, call it in to check if it's legit and then let you continue on. I mean, what if I flashed my RAAF ID, would that make me more trustworthy in their eyes (and no, I have never done that)?

I certainly think the idea has some merit, but this is a two way street and I would expect to see some tangible benefit to be gained by paying for and holding such a card. Scott has hinted on Airside Tours which is certainly a tangible benefit, and better spotting areas which sounds great, but then I am not sure if that means that card carriers only will get access, and if so, how will that be policed?

Scott, I am sure that you are all over these issues as have been the other Airport Spotting groups; I'm just interested to see how this happens.

[NeilP]

Maybe I'm missing something here, and maybe I should have been a bit clearer... The AFP in Adelaide took my license, "called it in", asked lots of questions (do I belong to any groups, why am I in Adelaide, why do aircraft interest me??? and such), asked to search my bag, checked my camera, generally made me feel very uncomfortable.
In Sydney, at the mound, a week later, two AFP's were talking to me about this very thing, and while filling out a questionaire, they told me that they weren't necessarily asking Plane spotters to be their eyes and ears, but basically hoping to try and identify genuine plane spotters, from potential trouble makers, as these two groups are mostly the only ones likely to be doing anything that could possibly be perceived as suspicious (ie, standing on fence lines, using ladders, etc).

Sure, they would appreciate us identifying and reporting something untoward, but wouldn't that be expected of any citizen?

As for paying a fee, I'd be happy to pay to enjoy my hobby in peace, and that would be benefit enough...

Cheers,
Neil.

[Robbie W]

Scott has hinted on Airside Tours which is certainly a tangible benefit, and better spotting areas which sounds great, but then I am not sure if that means that card carriers only will get access, and if so, how will that be policed?

I got the impression airside tours (and/or up-close access aircraft, etc) were potential prizes for assisting AFP and airport security people in the event of a security breach. I don't know if it was a bonus being offered to all paid-up, card-carrying spotters.

If I averted a terrorist incident, I'd want a $10k reward and nomination as Australian of the Year, not an airside tour, etc - none of which has been guaranteed as a bonus to those who assist, anyway.

Not since locals in Mascot and adjacent areas hijacked the media to endlessly complain that YSSY was "too noisy" have we seen overboard politicking and manipulation of a supposedly major airport issue.

Only today I saw an AFP car jotting down the licence plate details of professional photographers reporting on the departure by private jet of a major US celebrity. Completely ridiculous, completely unnecessary and a total waste of AFP resources. Airport noise was the political football at one time, now it seems to be security.

[Lee G]

Scott's original post was back in late September but I don't think I have seen an update from him since. It'd be nice to hear back to find out where this proposal is up to.

[thierry stephan]

Hello,

We do the same in France for CDG and ORY airports.
It is a very good idea.

Thx

[Mark T]

As Lee said, it would be great to hear if anything further has been done with this.

I am stuck at MEL due to the delays here tonight - Virgin Blue check in system down and a QF flight delayed "due to bird on the flight deck".

So, I thought I would take a couple of photos from QF Club lounge, only to be told by an officious QF staff member that other pax had complained and photos were not allowed at airports any longer - whatever!!

[Robbie W]

Will the Airport Watch membership program disadvantage infrequent or one-time spotters?

Aviation enthusiasts specialize in photography of aircraft, but photography enthusiasts photograph everything.

Is it practical or reasonable for someone to apply for membership before even heading to the airport for some spotting or photography, such as random passers-by who stop to view or photograph events such as the A380 when it first flew in, or a 787 when it commences?

Frequent spotters are known anyway, and are easily identified. The one-off 'randoms' are the ones who are not known and are the ones least likely to have Airport Watch ID.

[Jacques Brunelle]

No, there are no disadvantaged spotters, part-time or otherwise. The rare visitor is still welcomed as usual. Not much in the way of changes here after Airport Watch except that the airport has eyes and ears outside the fence and there are advantages to being in the AW programme. Whatever your airport's status quo is, it will remain after AW has begun. Why would it change unless you're in a country that forbides such photography long before Airport Watch comes on the scene? If your airport encourages such photography then you are doing well.

In my experiences with Airport Watch (AW) in North America (I am in Ottawa and about 10 major airports here are in the programme) over the past 10 years, this is a win-win-win situation. For more info go to my blog on item #58 I think it is. There are websites indicated there that shows how this works. Airport Watch in Britain (LHR) and in France (CDG) are different still.

There has also been some consternation about fees. From what I have seen, if there are any fees, it has been for the spotter's part of AW for local admin expenses to organise the spotters amongst themselves. I have never seen a fee charged to be an AW spotter by an authority. That would be against the principles of the program thus far. But hey, every country is different and there may be reasons for everything. AW is meant to help the authorities while bringing a new found respect to the hobby at least in the eyes of the authorities. Everyone wins and don't worry about fees, costs and budgets. The important thing here is to voice your desire for such a programme and to inform your airports about it. AW has already been proven to work. By the way, it was -27 C here today plus the wind chill and it is not even winter yet, so go out and enjoy the view and the warm weather! Pleae feel free to ask questions.

Best regards for Christmas and for a promising New Year.


Jacques

[Gerard M]

Scott's original post was back in late September but I don't think I have seen an update from him since. It'd be nice to hear back to find out where this proposal is up to.I'll echo the previous posts, any more info on this? I'm thinking this has the makings of one of the state governments north-west rail promises etc etc?:rolleyes: Gets everyone excited and then nothing happens?

[Philip Argy]

Hang in there guys - I've got every confidence in Scott being able to progress the proposal with AFP management.

[Kurt A]

I have contacted Scott and await a reply. We can only go on what they have provided to us at this stage.

I don't have any further update yet.

[Greg McDonald]

I contacted him probably a month or so ago and was advised that the plan has not been forgotton.....

[Jenny van Genderen]

Wow....this sounds great :)....could me in :)

[David Eyre]

Hi All,

I'm a new member based in Perth, and I'm also interested in setting up Airport Watch.

I think Airport Watch would be better as a national scheme. This scheme could either be managed centrally from Sydney, or by enthusiasts in each capital city.

Advantages of a national scheme are:

Members of Airport Watch could use their membership anywhere in Australia, not at one particular airport.
A national scheme would hold more weight with the authorities.
If any costs are involved (e.g. production of ID cards), then economies of scale may be achieved.


Can someone please update this thread regarding progress with the scheme, and their thoughts on making it national? I'm sure colleagues in other states would be interested in this.

Regards,
David Eyre
Perth, WA

[Kurt A]

Unfortunately the program is at a stand still at this point in time.

The AFP are in the process of developing the appropriate communication channels with relevant authorities before moving any further with any such program.

It would be in all enthusiasts' best interest to align with the AFP's plans in regards to any Airport Watch program; so when I'm aware of any further updates from them, I will do my best to keep you informed.

[JamesP]

I had a chat with some AFP members at Qantas Dr this arvo. They informed me that the plans and paperwork, etc for the program have been sent to Canberra for review, but it could be a long wait until we see something solid.

I also signed up my interest to the program by providing the AFP personnel with my details.

[Chris Q]

Scot,
I'm very interested in this if anything does go ahead.
Feel free to pm me
Good to see something like this being proposed with the police, it would be great if something like this where car enthusiasts and police can work together. I mean, real car enthusiasts (equivalent to plane spotters) get hassled alot and the police do not respect the true car enthusiast - at least one of my hobbies is working well here hehe
Cheers,
Chris

[Nigel C]

I hope by true car enthusiast you're not referring to a fully sick Hyundai Excel lowered with 19" rims and a 20" sub in the boot...

Anyway, I wouldn't hold your breath too long on this one...you'd all look a funny shade of purple by the time anything looks like getting done. Besides, communication from the original poster seems to have gone awefully quiet, awefully quickly.

[Bernie P]

Dragging this thread back up, but looks as though CBR has joined, whilst SYD will this Friday!


TRAVELLERS and workers at Canberra Airport are being asked to report suspicious activity to the police as part of a new Airport Watch program aimed at thwarting terrorist attacks.
Canberra is the third airport after Brisbane and Perth to join the program, which is based on the Neighbourhood Watch program.

"This program will reduce the likelihood of serious crimes happening at our airport and enhance our ability to assess, respond and resolve any incidents, should they occur," Australian Federal Police (AFP) Canberra Airport Police Commander Andrew Clarke said on Tuesday.

Airport Watch complements the AFP's existing capabilities, such as the community policing and counter-terrorist first response capability, bomb appraisal officers and firearms and explosives detection dogs.

Sydney Airport will join the program on Friday.

Read more: news.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/canberra-joins-airport-watch-program/story-e6frfku9-1226439450520#ixzz22AVOFal7)

[Nigel C]

I wonder if anyone held their breath waiting....? (see post above Bernie's)

[Bernie P]

Nigel, we'd never know, they'd be awfully purple by now!! :D

[Nigel C]

Has there been any further developments on this?