More than missed approach, missed airport!

[Trevor Sinclair]

An interesting one here from this morning's Tele.
http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,26248927-5014090,00.html

[Mark T]

And this one from Delta:

http://www.jetphotos.net/news/index.php?blog=1&title=delta-767-lands-on-taxiway-in-atlanta&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[Blair M]

It's beyond me to a certain extent that in this modern age we continue to have such major 'incidents'. Especially with modern airlines that have rigorous crew competency training mechanisms and organisational factors in place. Let alone the heavy regulation from the FAA/CASA etc.

Without pre-empting the investigations, it would seem obvious fatigue was a key driver in both instances. I think this will become the biggest killer moving forward in the industry. The aircraft are getting safer, technology can do a lot, but it can’t wake you up when you’re tired. The recent EK A345 incident was another example. I’m sure there are many more.

The 767 taxiway incident reminded me of the SQ 744 accident in TPE. :(

[Blair M]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP

Hmm :confused:

[Grahame Hutchison]

Nice little track on Flightaware, they should send the pilots the fuel bill.

[Gareth Forwood]

...technology can do a lot, but it can’t wake you up when you’re tired.:(

Actually now it can - the 2010 Mercedes E Class will have a system in place that wakes you if it senses you begin to doze off - http://reviews.carreview.com/blog/new-mercedes-tells-drowsy-drivers-to-wake-up/. However the financial cost of adding that to a fleet of aircraft would be ridiculously high...

[Mick F]

As Blair says, technology is becoming greater in the modern cockpit. The amount of information available now through the complex avionics now contained in not only airliners, but even new GA aircraft (right down to small recreational aircraft) is phenomonal.

However...... One of the things in aviation that can never be changed (at least in the modern era), only minimised to an extent, is human factors. Whilst ever you have a human in control of an aircraft, be it in maintenance or in the cockpit, or even behind the console at air traffic control, you will always have the risk of something going wrong.

Human factors is the biggest contributor towards aircraft accidents and incidents.

Probably more so in the last 10-20 years than any other time, there has been a very big focus on this area of aviation. Crew Resource Management, Fatigue Management, Safety Management Systems (which covers basically everything) are a normal part of modern airlines and general aviation operators these days. There are extensive studies constantly being undertaken on human factors, with some interesting results that can assist us with learning more about not only human factors as a whole, but also ourselves in everything we do.

Mick

[Chris Griffiths]

However the financial cost of adding that to a fleet of aircraft would be ridiculously high...

Would it be that expensive, a manufacturer like Mercedes putting this capability in a car such as an E Class, the cost would likely be less than a couple of hundred dollars per vehicle.

For Delta/NW with approx 450 aircraft that would amount to $90,000.
OK certifying and installing something in a commercial airliner is not going to happen for $200/unit.
Adding price escalation for certification and aerospace supplier price gouging and say $10,000/unit. 450 aircraft is going to run something like $4,500,000 hardly a showstopper if shown to be of real benefit.

[Adam G]

Some aircraft have systems in place that essentially alarm if the crew don't touch specific things in the flight deck for a specified amount of time - in the B777 for example it occurs after 20 minutes.

There are also procedures in most airlines for cabin crew to contact flight crew every 20 or so minutes to ensure they are still awake/alive.

Given pilots and cabin crew would normally at minimum have a interphone discussion (but normally a face to face contact) around the TOD point it's strange they over flew whether due sleep or "heated discussion" by so far.

[Gareth Forwood]

The whole thing reminds me of this thread all over again... Pilots fall asleep due to early start, sleep disorder (http://yssyforum.net/board/showthread.php?t=3727&highlight=hawaiian)

[Gerard M]

Two Northwest Airlines pilots have told federal investigators that they were going over schedules using their laptop computers in violation of company policy while their plane overflew their Minneapolis destination by 241 kilometres, the National Transportation Safety Board said.
The pilots — Richard Cole of Salem, Oregon, the first officer, and Timothy Cheney of Gig Harbor, Washington, the captain — said in interviews conducted over the weekend that they were not fatigued and didn't fall asleep, the board said in a statement.


http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/wayward-us-pilots-were-working-on-their-laptops-20091027-hh76.html?autostart=1

[Philip Argy]

I would normally urge people to be slow to judge others, but the suggestion that two alert and experienced flight crew could go for more than an hour and 300 km without contacting ATC and without noticing that they had forgotten to land so defies credibility that the hypothesis that they had fallen asleep seems much more plausible.


WASHINGTON, Oct 26 (Reuters) - Pilots of a Northwest Airlines jetliner that overshot its destination by 150 miles last week told U.S. investigators they became distracted during an extended discussion of crew scheduling that included their use of personal laptops, officials said on Monday.

"The pilots said there was a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls from (air traffic controllers) even though both stated they heard conversation on the radio," the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said after interviewing the pair on Sunday.

"Both said they lost track of time," the safety board said in a report on its investigation, which included disclosures about the nature of the conversation and the use of laptop computers.

The two veteran commercial pilots said they were not fatigued during the evening flight on Oct. 21 from San Diego to Minneapolis, countering speculation they may have fallen asleep.

Air controllers and airline dispatchers sought to contact Flight 188, an Airbus A320 with 144 passengers, for more than an hour with the plane at 37,000 feet.

Neither pilot was aware of the plane's wayward state until a flight attendant asked them about their scheduled arrival time, the NTSB said.

The captain looked at his flight display data, realized the mistake and then contacted controllers for permission to turn around. The plane landed without incident in Minneapolis.

Delta Air Lines (DAL.N (http://yssyforum.net/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=DAL.N)), which owns Northwest, said in a statement the use of laptops or "engaging in activity unrelated to" flying the aircraft violates company policy.

The airline has suspended the pilots pending the outcome of government and internal investigations. They could be fired, Delta said.

The pilots said they were discussing new monthly crew schedules, which were put in place as a result of Northwest's merger with Delta in 2008.

Investigators are also reviewing information from the plane's flight data recorder.

[Andrew P]

my uniformed comment on the basis a voice recorder only keeps 30 minutes of history

yes they fell asleep, woke up realised they are stuffed, so kept flying so by the time that came back to land the 30 minute window had been exceeded and no-one would be able to work it out

[David Ramsay]

From CNN

The FAA says it has revoked the licenses of two Northwest Airlines pilots who overflew a Minnesota airport last week.

[Justin L]

Below is the Top 10 from "The Late Show with David Letterman" from Monday night's (US time) show regarding the Northwest incident.

Monday, October 26, 2009
Top Ten Northwest Airlines Pilot Excuses

10."Bunch of fat guys seated on right side of plane made us vector east"

9."We get paid by the hour"

8."MapQuest always takes you the long way, am I right, people?"

7."Tired of that show-off Sullenberger getting all the attention"

6."You try steering one of those airplanes after eight or nine cocktails"

5."Wanted to catch end of in-flight movie"

4."Activating autopilot and making occasional P.A. announcements is exhausting"

3."According to our map, we only missed target by half-an-inch"

2."For a change, decided to send luggage to the right city and lose the passengers"

1."Thought we saw Balloon Boy"

[Sarah C]

:D That Letterman Top 10 is great!

[Adam.S]

source: S.Hradecky
On Oct 26th the NTSB reported, that the crew gave testimony in separate interviews. The crew stated, that they had a 19 hour layover before departure and were both well rested (not fatigued). Neither of them fell asleep, and there was no heated argument on the flight deck. They were discussing a new monthly flight crew scheduling system now in place as result of ther merger (Delta Airlines and Northwest Airlines). The discussion started in cruise, both pilots accessed their laptops while reviewing the new scheduling system and lost track of time. They did hear the radio, but did not monitor the calls, neither heard the calls by ATC nor noticed the messages from their dispatchers. About 5 minutes prior to estimated time of touch down a flight attendant entered the cockpit and asked for an estimated time of arrival. At that point the captain realized, that they had already passed Minneapolis, contacted ATC and requested vectors back to Minneapolis.

The NTSB said, that the use of laptops during flight is prohibited by company policy. The crew was using the cockpit loudspeakers in cruise flight, not their head sets. When asked by ATC about their silence on the radio, the crew told ATC, they had a "cockpit distraction" and were dealing "with company policies". Both pilots said, there was no company policy on the cabin crew checking the flight deck.

First analysis of the Cockpit Voice Recorder showed, that it recorded only 30 minutes. The cockpit area microphone channel was not working during this recording, the cockpit headphone microphones however recorded the conversation during final approach, landing and at the gate. The flight data recorder is still being analysed.

The FAA revoked the licenses of both pilots on Oct 27th citing violations of a number of Federal Aviation Regulations including failing to comply with ATC instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

[David Knudsen]

Here is a copy of the letter from the FAA pulling their ATPL's on the NY Times website

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/28plane-cheney.pdf

[Philip Argy]

Certainly doesn't pull any punches!

[Krzysztof M]

An official report has been released.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UieFk6yq74w

[Philip Argy]

Not 'official' and not a 'report' but reasonably funny.

[Greg McDonald]

That was a really good clip :D:D