QF to announce CBR-DRW route from Feb 2010.

[Jason A]

non-stop direct services between Canberra and Darwin, from February 2010.

You heard it here first :)

[Jarden S]

I actually read it first on Airliner's net last week. But was not going to post it on here untill the official press release comes out. I heard 3 times a week using 73H aircraft.

[Stefan Perkas]

Afternoon all,

3x a week Monday, Wednesday and Friday's

From 1/02/10 til 03/04/10

QF844 Dep CBR 0930 Arr DRW 1225
QF845 Dep DRW 1310 Arr CBR 1850

From 4/04/10

QF844 Dep CBR 0930 Arr DRW 1325
QF845 Dep DRW 1410 Arr CBR 1850

[Steve Jones]

CBR press release:

NEW DIRECT FLIGHTS TO DARWIN - EVERY STATE AND TERRITORY CAPITAL COVERED

Canberra Airport is delighted by the news that Qantas will commence non-stop direct return services from Canberra to Darwin from February 2010.

Mr Matthew Brown, Manager Aviation for Canberra Airport stated that: "With these new flights to Darwin every State and Territory Capital is now linked by direct jet services to the National Capital.”

Using state of the art 164-seat B737-800 aircraft, these new direct services are expected to be well patronised by government and business passengers as well as holidaymakers.

“Significant numbers of people already travel between Canberra and Darwin for business and pleasure. This new flight means they will be able to travel between the two cities non-stop, without having to change planes in Sydney, Brisbane or Adelaide”, Mr Brown said.

“We expect that this direct service will also help stimulate business and tourism between Canberra and Darwin, providing a valuable support to the two Territories’ tourism, hospitality and accommodation industries at a time when people need to be encouraged to travel within Australia”, Mr Brown added.

The new Canberra-Darwin flight is a further vote of confidence in Canberra Airport after the recent introduction of daily direct services to Hobart and Townsville.

“The new direct services bring to eleven the number of destinations served direct from Canberra Airport.” Mr Brown said. “Never before has the Nation’s Capital been so well connected with the other cities in Australia.

Services depart Canberra for Darwin at 9.30am on Monday, Wednesday and Fridays, returning to Canberra at 6.50pm.

[Gareth U]

Excellent news! Particularly for Canberra Airport.

Shame Qantas cannot manage a token MEL-DRW-MEL service in the peak season to compliment Jetstar. The demand IS there.

[Scotty B]

Shame Qantas cannot manage a token MEL-DRW-MEL service in the peak season to compliment Jetstar.

That just sounds so completely wrong...... :(

[Kain C]

There are no additional CBR-PER, CBR-ADL, CBR-MEL, CBR-SYD or CBR-BNE flights on these 3 days; how does the aircraft get to CBR to do the CBR-DRW? Does the PER-CBR just overnight and then do the CBR-DRW 3 days a week, while sitting on the ground in CBR all day the other 4 days?

If only QF did CBR-HBA then they would have non-stop CBR-all capital cities in Australia. :rolleyes:

[Steve Jones]

Kain - Virgin do a daily E170 HBA flight, however. Does quite well I hear.

I suspect the linking flights aren't yet in the schedule. One would guess it will be like the PER flight where the 73H goes SYD-CBR-PER-CBR (overnight)-SYD, though as you said, the times would allow the 73H to go direct DRW-CBR-PER.

[Kain C]

Yes Steve, by they I meant QF.

I know the CBR-HBA with DJ does quite well; wouldn't mind seeing some E90 or 73G on peak days over summer but I guess SYD-CBR and CBR-MEL are a bit quiet over that period to warrant the larger aircraft on the linking flights.

As for the CBR-DRW linking flights possibly not being loaded yet, what is the advantage of not loading them in? Surely if they know when they will be (or else how would they know the CBR-DRW schedule), why wouldn't you make them available. Even if only 1 person buys a seat in the next week, they [QF] will still be up won't they?

[Alex Lui]

How do the Townsville flights fair? Are they getting good loads?

Regarding the Darwin flights, the flights to Darwin are loaded into the system, with flights at $179 I guess to entice people to try it (worked for me!). Looking at their schedules, I suspect the aircraft maybe coming in from Adelaide the night before and head out to Darwin when it operates and maybe to Sydney during the rest of the time (QF872). The afternoon Adelaide - Canberra flight is a 73H while QF872 is a 73H. I know that it may head to Sydney but the Darwin flight could be from Canberra?? I have no idea where it heads to after getting into Canberra because most flights don't make that connection time. But like everyone says, it's not loaded into the system yet where the aircraft comes from.

The a/c for Perth is fed from Sydney. QF805 is still a 73H and that turns into QF719 for Perth, QF771 does that on Saturday for QF717 to Perth.

Regarding Perth, I noticed that the flights from Perth to Canberra are majority 734's. Could it be that time of year that loads aren't the best to put the 734 on this run or again has it not been updated yet? The only flight that has the 73H for the week I searched was Saturday or Friday.

Good on Qantas for having another flight out of Canberra. Hopefully this flight can get decent loads so that all cities can still be connected. Now if only we could say get one International flight, that would be good. :)

[Steve Jones]

The reason for 734 PER-CBR is the fact they have more J class seats - the reason most 737s from CBR are 734s. They are 73H outbound because the high altitude of CBR Airport means that a 734 has loading issues in warmer weather on departure from CBR.

I'm sure QF would run a 734 CBR-PER too if they could without impacting on loads.

[Jarden S]

Also Jetstar not serve Canberra. They could start services to OOL and even CNS from CBR. I am sure the market can handle 2 flights a week each to start with.

[Kain C]

The reason for 734 PER-CBR is the fact they have more J class seats - the reason most 737s from CBR are 734s. They are 73H outbound because the high altitude of CBR Airport means that a 734 has loading issues in warmer weather on departure from CBR.

I'm sure QF would run a 734 CBR-PER too if they could without impacting on loads.

I assume the above is why CBR-DRW is also 73H and not 734? CBR-DRW is 45km longer than than CBR-PER (Great Circle).

[Gareth U]

Andrew

The demand IS there for peak season flights MEL-DRW-MEL on high demand days. At the moment high yield pax have to travel via SYD, BNE or ADL. By reintroducing direct MEL-DRW in the peak season on peak days it would open more seats on services ex SYD, BNE or ADL and lessen the need for widebodies to DRW over the dry season.

Are you suggesting there exists no high yield market at all MEL-DRW? Not enough to warrant select additional flights over the peak season?

I found your post quite condescending. I said compliment Jetstar. I was not suggesting that JQ does not serve MEL-DRW-MEL well.

[Gareth U]

Andrew I was never suggesting that Jetstar should exit the market. :confused:

I was merely suggesting that there does exist a sizable amount of high-yield customers MEL-DRW who now travel on services through SYD, BNE and ADL. The amount of MEL connectors on the QF754 (ex-ADL) and QF846 (ex-SYD) is considerable to say the least. Limited additional QF flights in the peak season would relieve services ex other ports, as well as Jetstar's services.

I would like to point out that Qantas still carries, and makes money from, lower-yielding customers. Jetstar simply does not have that market all to themselves.

Jetstar is the appropriate model for the MEL-DRW route, I never suggested otherwise. Please stop being so defensive.

[Kain C]

And the yield is not...

I make it 5 words, not 4!

And are they the same market analysis teams that despite JQ operating 6 service per day on HBA-MEL in April (which had 83.4% load factor), drop to only 4 services per day for peak season in December despite HBA-MEL being pretty much the only growing major route in the country (averaging over 8% compared with last year)! And then announcing a massive 3 per week increase (which is actually still a decrease compared with what they have operated other years) claiming to be saving the day! Or what about HBA-BNE where DJ have had fewer than 10 available seats on several days over Christmas/New Year for over two months in advance, and yet still refusing to put more on becuase they don't think it is viable?

[Kain C]

Well I guess that's it. It's not that the demand is not there, it is the fact that there aren't any assets available to operate additional services. It's not exactly practical to ring up Airbus a couple of months in advance and get them to send a new A320 to you, and for you to hire and train crew and find a spot to park the aircraft etc. But you would think that given that in each of the last few years, the available seats have been no where near sufficient to/from HBA over Dec/Jan that for next year at least something can be worked out in advance to put a halt to this farsical situation that arises every year. Surely all those long A321s flying half full to DRW in wet season at this time isn't optimal either. Couldn't some of these be downgraded to
A320, and have HBA-MEL upgraded to A321 on some services at least? Or what about all those QF 734s that don't operate to CBR over Dec/Jan when it is holidays. Some of those could operate additional MEL-HBA for sure?

Before JQ started in 2004, QF had systematic structres in place whereby they operated an additional daily HBA-MEL and HBA-SYD for Dec-Jan (sometimes Dec-Mar). Why can't JQ have systematic structures in place too? Give or take a month, Tasmania has its high season from Oct-Mar, while Queensland has its high season from Apr-Sep. So why can't JQ schedule some A321 services to Tasmania from Oct-Mar, and to Queensland from Apr-Sep, with A320s operating the same flights in the repective low season? That way, JQ are responding to demand, rather than having constant capacity on all sectors all year round, which results in under-capacity for high season, and over-capacity for low season!

[Jarden S]

They could do with more aircraft it seems. When is the next A320 due and is it for Domestic, NZ or Singapore operations?

[Kain C]

I'll deal with this in order. Firstly, I'm not just having a go at JQ. Fact is, compared with Dec-Jan 08-09, the Dec-Jan 09-10 HBA-MEL schedule is down by a daily TT 320 and a daily DJ 737. JQ will offer the same number of seats as last time. For a route that is not only one of the fastest growing, but one of the only routes that is growing in pax consistently this year, a reduction of two daily services for peak season will (in my opinion) result in yet another of these farsical situations where every available seat is sold for several days in a row, effectively cutting Hobart off from the mainland.

Secondly, 330 metal (even though it's mostly plastic isn't it?) would be very welcome at HBA over Dec/Jan, even if just on selected days.

Thirdly, I find a statement from JQ claiming to be increasing HBA-MEL by 3 per week misleading really; given the fact that in April 09 they operated up to 6 daily HBA-MEL, yet for peak season they operate just 4 daily with a 5th extra 3 days per week only added close to the last minute. So they drop 10 services, then add 3 back later and claim to have given a nett increase!

Fourthly, why does Feb miss out on these extra 3 services per week. Feb actually has a higher number of passengers per day on average than March; it is just because Feb has 28 days compared with March which has 31, that March results in higher total pax. Plus I would say Feb has more high demand days with events such as international cricket matches, regatta, international triathlon, wooden boat festival etc.

Fifthly, this is all just HBA-MEL. Don't get me started on HBA-BNE which had 8 DJ 737 services per week last summer (plus a daily LST-BNE E70), only for this year to be downgraded to a daily DJ E90 on HBA-BNE and zero DJ LST-BNE! At least the 3 extra JQ LST-BNE will help slightly.

Finally, as for comparing the market from 5 years ago; Tasmania always has and always will peak in Dec-Jan. It would thus make sense to me to then offer maximum seats in these periods, and minimum seats in the lowest periods to maximise the return from this small piece of pie. But, if it turns out that this action would result in a smaller nett profit for the whole pie than some other distrubution, then I guess the situation is just counter-intuituve. But, for the average person to continually see all seats sold over the busiest period, only for more seats to be cut for next time, it will always seem the wrong thing to do!

[Jarden S]

Its not just in Tasmania that airline services have had cutbacks. Its right accross Australia mainly caused by the GFC Qantas did major reductions in operations from July 2008 they did a 5% cut in flights and earlier this year flights got cut back even more. SYD, MEL and BNE have lost heaps of capacity both Internationaly and Domesticaly. This is how Tiger has been able to start operations to SYD because of other airlines have given up their landing slots. Before the GFC there were not enough slots available at SYD for Tiger to start a reasonable schedule with.

[Ash W]

Secondly, 330 metal (even though it's mostly plastic isn't it?) would be very welcome at HBA over Dec/Jan, even if just on selected days.


No the A330 is mostly metal.

As for the rest of your post, don't you think the airlines know what they are doing? As Andrew has been attempting to point out to you they, the airlines have ALL the facts and figures and have chosen to deploy their limited assets where they beleive they will get the best returns. Without any in depth knowledge of those figures and for every other route whining is pointless.

Edited - Mod

[Kain C]

Well, the reason that I am whining is that in 2006 this happened (from The Mercury Newspaper):

THERE may still be room at the inn for the forthcoming Christmas week in Hobart -- but there is no way for anyone to get here.

At least not directly from Melbourne.

In an extraordinary situation, no seats are available on any flight into Hobart from Melbourne on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday next week.

The situation is creating chaos for business travellers scheduled to hold meetings in Hobart next week, who now find they cannot get to Tasmania's capital city except on Sunday or Thursday.

It is believed to be the first time such a lack of airline capacity has affected Hobart for a sustained period.

Urgent talks were held yesterday between Tourism Tasmania chief executive Felicia Mariani and Qantas about improving access to Hobart.

Both Qantas and Jetstar in the past year have reduced the number of daily flights and total passengers able to fly to Tasmania, particularly Hobart.

State Tourism Minister Paula Wriedt said yesterday she was perturbed by the looming shutdown in access from Melbourne to Hobart next week.

"I will continue to actively encourage airlines to increase flights but at the end of the day it is unfortunately a commercial decision that each airline must make," Ms Wriedt said.

Tourism Council of Tasmania chief executive Daniel Leesong said while it was encouraging to see incoming planes fully booked, it did Tasmania no good if travellers who wanted to come here were turned away because of flight access problems.

"In some ways it's a great problem to have, but it needs to be resolved if it continues," Mr Leesong said.

The first flight from Melbourne to Hobart next week is on Thursday.

But even then the cheapest one-way ticket is a hefty $219 per person with Jetstar, with prices not falling below $200 until Christmas Eve.

And the flight access problem from Melbourne is not confined to Hobart. Even the alternative of flying from Melbourne to Launceston and hiring a car to drive to Hobart for business appointments is out, because all flights to Launceston for the same three days are booked out.

But none of the three domestic airlines -- Jetstar, Virgin Blue or Qantas -- is prepared to put extra flights on to alleviate the bottleneck.

Qantas is however looking at switching the type of planes that fly the Melbourne-Hobart route next week from 737s to 767s, which would enable it to offer 24 extra seats per flight.

Plenty of flights are still available in the other direction, from Hobart to the mainland.

Then for 2007, the airlines collectively offered 4,000 fewer seats on HBA-MEL for December, and 7,000 fewer for January (2008); and it happened again!

Now in 2009, we have this from September:

http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2009/09/16/97581_travel.html

December pax have traditionally been 10-15% higher than September pax. With no increase in services compared with September this year (JQ took some off for Nov which they will put back on for Dec), I can forsee it happening for the 4th time in 4 years, which I find unacceptable!

[Ash W]

Sure demand may be higher, but you are not getting the point that the airline has to consider demand on ALL routes and allocate their resources to suit.

[Gareth U]

With respect to CBR-DRW-CBR flights an employee publication implies they will connect to CBR-MEL services. I won't quote it as it is poorly worded.

Perhaps this is the poor man's version of the direct MEL-DRW QF services I was pondering? Would be a clever idea to have MEL-DRW customers connect through CBR to relieve ADL, SYD and BNE services and also boost CBR-DRW loads. I cannot imagine 3 -800s could be filled solely on O&D customers.

[Kain C]

Well, there are existing MEL-CBR (QF804) and CBR-MEL (QF483) that would connect quite nicely with the CBR-DRW and DRW-CBR respectively. So does the article imply that the same aircraft will operate MEL-CBR-DRW-CBR-MEL, or simply that there will be suitable connecting flights. I would prefer to see HBA-CBR-DRW-CBR-HBA myself, but I guess that won't be happening!

Lastly, there have been good comments regarding aircraft capacity allocation when this thread took a side turn for a bit :), but no-one has posted a single advantage for QF not loading in the connecting schedule for these new CBR-DRW flights. They obviously know where it will come from, so is there a single advantage for holding back the schedule?

[Ash W]

QF804 is a 767, so that is not the aircraft that will continue to Darwin unless they down grade to a 737-800 and cancel the return QF811 flight to Melbourne 3 days a week. I don't see that happening as clearly it is a busy flight, hence the need for a 767.

One flight that does stand out is QF706 from Adelaide. It arrives about the right time to be able to continue to Darwin and I cannot see where that a/c goes after it arrives in Canberra. So maybe it is a possibility. It is a -400 though. And for the return as you pointed out QF483 seems logical but again it is a -400.

So I guess some time soon we will see some new flights, or some changes to existing flights to accomodate this new flight to Darwin. Why it hasn't been done now is anyones guess. Time will tell.

[Gareth U]

The Boeing 737-800 services will operate Monday, Wednesday and Friday, also connecting Canberra customers to evening Melbourne services.

Take from that what you will.

[Ben Smith]

Just did a dummy booking for MEL-DRW-MEL in Feb and the connection via Canberra is showing in both directions. One of the CBR-MEL evening connections, QF483 is showing as a 737-800, while In January it is shown as a 737-400. It would be fair to say that QF845 and QF483 are operated by the same aircraft.

[Kain C]

There are no additional CBR-PER, CBR-ADL, CBR-MEL, CBR-SYD or CBR-BNE flights on these 3 days; how does the aircraft get to CBR to do the CBR-DRW? Does the PER-CBR just overnight and then do the CBR-DRW 3 days a week, while sitting on the ground in CBR all day the other 4 days?

Looks like the aircraft comes from SYD. The exisiting QF 803 SYD-CBR (0720-0815) does the CBR-DRW on Mon,Wed,Fri; and does QF 564 CBR-SYD (0855-0950) on Tue,Thu. In the afternoon QF 879 SYD-CBR (1725-1820) operates Tue, Thu, Sat, Sun; so together with the DRW-CBR aircraft (on Mon,Wed,Fri) the next departure out of CBR is daily, although I don't know where to. Maybe it overnights in CBR?

[Jarden S]

From New worldwide airline routes at centre for pacific aviation, it has got 3 new 737-800 flights from MEL-CBR starting feb10. So these may be the ones that carry onto Darwin

[Steve Jones]

First flight CBR-DRW is this morning. Am about to head to the terminal to check in for it :)

[Zac M]

anyone know what a/c performed the inaugural flight?

[Ash W]

According to the ACARS log on the 16Right.com website it appears to have been operated by VH-VXU

[Steve Jones]

Yes confirm VH-VXU. I was on board - excellent flight (approx 4h20) but quite a light load for the first flight