Richmond - Sydney's second airport?

[Lee G]

SMH - 23 November 2009


New airport set for take-off

THE Rudd Government is expected to pave the way for the Richmond air force base to be opened up to commercial airline traffic when it releases its long-awaited aviation white paper next month.

As part of the revamp of aviation policy, the blueprint will renew the search for a permanent site for a second Sydney airport after 63 years of political wrangling.

The Richmond RAAF base is expected to be announced as a temporary solution while the Government intensifies its search for a permanent location.

The white paper is expected to highlight the long-term need for a second airport north of the Sydney basin but closer than Newcastle. The Williamtown RAAF base has been touted as a possible site.

The development of Richmond would take pressure off Sydney Airport, which had more than 3 million passengers last month for the first time despite a downturn in travel.

''The most obvious is Richmond, but that is not a long-term option,'' a well-placed source said.

The Board of Airline Representatives, on behalf of international airlines flying to and from Australia, said it would welcome Richmond as the site for a second Sydney airport.

''We don't believe that an airport outside the Sydney basin would be viable. It would just become a white elephant,'' the board's executive director, Warren Bennett, said.

The only way to make a second airport viable commercially would be to place it near a large population and have it serve both international and domestic passengers, he said. The cost of providing transport links to Richmond would also be cheaper than sites such as Williamtown, which would need a high-speed rail link to Sydney.

Richmond is capable of handling most long-haul aircraft and would suit low-cost airlines such as Jetstar and the Singapore Airlines-backed Tiger Airways.

But any use of Richmond by commercial aircraft, even on an interim basis, would face staunch opposition in the area. Hawkesbury Council said in a response to the aviation green paper that it would have ''an unacceptable impact on the community''.

It is understood support is building within Labor for an airport inland from the Central Coast. The party's policy is for a second airport to be sited outside the Sydney basin.

The federal Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, has not previously ruled Richmond in or out as a site for a second airport but has struck Blacktown Airport and Badgerys Creek off the list.

A spokesman for the minister said the white paper would most likely be released next month. He would not comment on the use of Richmond as a stop-gap measure but said the blueprint would address the needs for additional airport capacity and the future of Badgerys Creek.

The State Government backed a second airport in the Sydney basin in its response to the aviation green paper, a U-turn on its previous preference for the Williamtown RAAF base at Newcastle. The change of heart was due to the cost of a high-speed rail link.

[Kieran Wells]

SMH - 23 November 2009


The federal Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese, has not previously ruled Richmond in or out as a site for a second airport but has struck Blacktown Airport and Badgerys Creek off the list.


Blacktown Airport??? I think this should have been Bankstown! There has never been plans for an airport at Blacktown...

[Dan Collins]

Quite interesting, if only temporarily - Richmond is easier for me to get to for spotting than Sydney :P

Blacktown Airport? Probably means Bankstown, but heck, the land for Schofields aerodrome is still there!

Dan

[Rich W]

Makes sense to have a second airport that serves Western Sydney. I live in the North West, getting to YSSY in peak hour is hell plus don't get me started about the road tolls, and the fact there is no rail out here!

Richmond is a good idea in the short term however they will need to improve public transport to local roads in the area before this can happen.

[Andrew P]

bring back the Duffy's Forest airport plans!!!!

[Lee G]

Bankstown has only one advantage - the East Hills line which runs to the airport runs about 5 km from YSBK so to extend it wouldn't be such a big deal. There is already a triple line from Wolli to Revesby. However - there simply isn't the land available to extend the airport and the owners have already started to redevelop the land as commercial.

Richmond would give the North West corridor it's much needed rail upgrade and Newcastle would invigorate the Hunter...

.... now if only the State Government would spend some of our hard earned tax dollars instead of blowing it on meaningless stuff .... almost eveyone would be happy!

[Peter Agatsiotis]

They should have gone ahead with Badgery's Creek (biased as I live 15km from the 'proposed site). Too late now as they are talking about housing 150,000 at Bringelly and surrounds.

I remember when it was first proposed I had a visit from the anti-airport lobby who were organising a petition and the guy was 'gob-smacked' when I said I was all for an airport close by!!
I explained to him that I flew quite frequently and had to get up at 4am so I could make a 6:30 or 7am flight! In those days the M5 stopped at King Georges Rd and the M4 stopped at Huntingwood and then you could rejoin at May's Hill.

Bankstown is out for the reasons already outlined plus very strong resistance from the "Regionals' who only a year or so ago were going to be 'pushed to Bankstown'.

Richmond would need enormous development to even come close to an international airport. Existing runway too short for long haul ops. Even the C17's (USAF) have to go to QLD to refuel for their onward journey.
I worked there for 4 years and another problem is fog that hangs around for hours as there are no 'sea breezes' to clear it quickly. It is also in a flood plain and even though it is elevated it can quite easily be cut off if the river overflows.

(Only yesterday a burst water main at Quakers Hill forced the rail line to be closed.)

There was talk of buliding a north/south runway which would cut accross Clarendon which would mean they would have to replace the road and rail links that run past the airport.

Once agin a few airlines would baulk at having to duplicate systems/staff at another airport.

I know it will be a long way off if anything happens but with politics these ideas come and go.

[Gerard M]

Richmond would need enormous development to even come close to an international airport. Existing runway too short for long haul ops. Even the C17's (USAF) have to go to QLD to refuel for their onward journey.
I worked there for 4 years and another problem is fog that hangs around for hours as there are no 'sea breezes' to clear it quickly. It is also in a flood plain and even though it is elevated it can quite easily be cut off if the river overflows.


To be honest i hope they never get round to it much like the train or whatever line they were going to give us at Castle hill and the rail links etc etc etc the list goes on. But lets say somehow it does happen, as you said the fog is going to be one of their biggest problems. I drove through many days and as late as September there was some pretty heavy fog still hanging around. Good luck to them. Oh and good luck getting the support of the local community!

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Actually Gerard, the local community are very interested in Richmond operating into the future. There was a very strong indication that the RAAF would be out by 2010 and local businesses were up in arms. You have several thousand military and civilains working there and they need housing, shops, garages, doctors, banks, chemists, lots of pubs! etc.... The staff there contribute millions to the local economy. The airport is not that busy now that 33 Sqn has all but moved out and traffic volumes are very low in comparison to other bases.

Obviously a different scenario with airline type operations and vastly increased traffic in the area. And there would have to be a curfew. Even now the airfield officialy 'opens' at 8am and very little flying after dark except for training and emergency operations.

[Chris Griffiths]

bring back the Duffy's Forest airport plans!!!!

Actually Duffy's Forest presents somewhat of a catch-22 for our Labor State & Federal governments, they could steam roll the airport through and build it in a heartbeat with no regard to lost votes but would have to improve public transport to the area which is something they have continually refused to do.. also due to the fact there are no votes in it!

[Grahame Hutchison]

Good grief, they were talking about an airport at Duffy's Forest back in 1968 when I was a student pilot. Long forgotten about that one as a possibility, but it would have been a great GA option for me back then.

[Brenden S]

Why do they just built a airport out in the middle of the ocean like some of the real large airports around the world, then you have no one to complain about noise then!

[Russell D]

I still reckon YSRI would be pretty good as a secondary. Opens up nicely for most of those living in the western subs.

Besides, with YSRI, you already get most of the infrastructure on site (minus transport upgrades). And 28 already has ILS installed.

My only concern would be due to the "fogging in" effect which is worse at Richmond way than Sydney...

But, a 30min car ride to YSRI or spotting is miles better than the hour and a half out to YSSY. :D

[Chris Griffiths]

Why do they just built a airport out in the middle of the ocean like some of the real large airports around the world, then you have no one to complain about noise then!

Really which ones?

[Ash W]

Hong Kong and Osaka would be two such examples, but clearly not really in the open ocean though. So not really a practicle answer for Sydney as here any offshore airport would be in open ocean. Also where would the fill come from to make this island? In Hong Kong they knocked down a couple of hills on two islands to make 1 big flat one, nothing like that near Sydney.

[Chris Griffiths]

Ash,
Thought those might be the answers I would see.
Osaka, Kansai is built in a bay where the water depth is about 25 mtrs and yes HKG was built pretty much by leveling two islands into the gap between them.

There is only one place near Sydney where the geography is similar and remotely suitable for building/reclaiming into an airport. A swampy field to the south of the city.... oh wait, we already built an airport there, half of which is built in the bay much the same way as HKG or KIX.

The fill for 16R/34L extension at SYD?, the planners and engineers of the '70s were planning ahead and provided a dumpsite for the excavations that were to become the rowing regatta site at the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

Actually leveling Lion Island into Broken Bay might work but I think the likleyhood is slim!

[NickN]

Planning and infrastructure has always been poor in NSW, especially Sydney.

Look at the M5 and M2 motorways. Who in gods name builds a 2-lane motorway to serve the entire west and south-west in the nations largest city by population?

When they built those motorways, not a single thought was given to what would be required 10 or 20 years on. Now we have the M5 which is a car park every day of the week and the M2 which isn't much better.

I sincerely hope that whatever government does in moving forward they put a little more vision into their planning. God knows how they plan to extend the current infrastructure we have to keep up with future needs.

[Rich W]

Look at the M5 and M2 motorways. Who in gods name builds a 2-lane motorway to serve the entire west and south-west in the nations largest city by population?

I hear you! They seemed to have it right in 1932 when they built the Harbour Bridge to be wide enough for 8 lanes and rail, when it probably wasn't even needed to be that wide at the time. Why don't they think about the future?

[Dave Powell]

Why don't they think about the future?

Because it costs more, and by developing only the minimum possible capacity it shifts the fiscal problem onto some future Government.

[Andrew P]

my post about Duffy Forest was in jest, anyway the land proposed back in the 70's for the Airport is now the Terry Hills Golf Club

[Patrick Moore]

Planning and infrastructure has always been poor in NSW, especially Sydney.

Look at the M5 and M2 motorways. Who in gods name builds a 2-lane motorway to serve the entire west and south-west in the nations largest city by population?

When they built those motorways, not a single thought was given to what would be required 10 or 20 years on. Now we have the M5 which is a car park every day of the week and the M2 which isn't much better.



I remember hearing from a source a year or 2 ago that it is purposely done like that so developers will always be getting their money from the government for infrastructure.

[Grahame Hutchison]

Andrew, The land at Duffy's Forest may well be a golf course now, but it's amazing what a bulldozer and some bitumen can do. Only some minor changes required to make it into a great GA airport. There is already onsite accommodation (new Hangers), and dams for fire fighting services. They could move the clubhouse to the west a few metres to make a first class terminal facility. A high speed rail link from Palm Beach to the city via the airport, would bring the Northern Beaches out of the public transport dark ages.

Presenting Sydney's 4th Airport - "Duffy's Forest" (or "Hoxton Park North")

http://www.16right.com/MessageBoard/Terry Hills Airport.jpg

[Chris Griffiths]

Grahame,
You would have to change your location details to read...

Location: Sydney's Northern Beaches - Not too Far From YSDF

Cheers

[Grahame Hutchison]

I like the sound of YSDF Chris.

[Adam J]

Thats some quality work there Graham.

As a fellow Northern Beaches resident I would be happy, but remember the debacle of our new hospital just down the road.:)

Graham we just have to be content to live in "Gods Country" and accept we have no transport, no infrastructure but at least the pollies leave us alone.

Tounge firmly in cheek but I'd love to see this proposal put up can you imagine the melt down from our local councillors. Send it off to the Manly Daily it would be a classic.

[D Chan]

Because it costs more, and by developing only the minimum possible capacity it shifts the fiscal problem onto some future Government.

more likely because the politicians only care about their next election and not about 10-20 yrs into the future.

Building airports on top of water is a very costly exercise. There are potential issues of 'sinking' as well.

[Russell D]

Wow i like the way you did that Grahame. But I'm still a little confused. "YSDF" would be great for GA similar to YSBK, but how would that help YSSY to better cope?

I thought the search for a second airport was more along the lines of finding space to create a domestic airport so that Sydney could be perhaps primarily International.

[Grahame Hutchison]

Russell, this is the cunning foot in the door strategy. The above was Plan A only, once established Plan B is for the Parallel Runways 16/34 be extended to handle domestic traffic. This location would service Sydney's north and the central Coast, and the high speed rail link would be extended north to Wyong.

[Russell D]

Ahh ok cheers Grahame. I thought you were implying that but i wasnt 100% sure, so just wanted to check. Yeah cause when I checkout out "YSDF" on GoogleEarth, i noticed the 16/34 runways could be extended in future. Also, you might be able to get 03/21 out to 800ish metres by extending it westwards.

[Gerard M]

Doesn't look like the Govt is giving anything away about Richmond as yet.

Badgerys Creek is no longer an option.At this time the Government will not be speculating about any other particular locations
or sites for additional aviation capacity which will be in or out of the aviation strategic plan.
These locations will be developed as part of the work overseen by the Steering Committee and
undertaken by Australian Government and NSW officials.For those interested, here is a link (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/files_white_paper/091215_Full.pdf) to the PDF. P.192 refers discusses the issue of a second airport

[Jethro H]

Speak about going no where. I see another Taskforce is going to be set up to choose another site. They have 2 years to reply to the Government.

So 2011... site chosen
2020... start construction
2021... stop construction due to some politician

2030... task force to choose another site.....

[Russell D]

Any chance that the old Schofields Aerodrome might be an option???

I noticed that the longest runway is almost 5000ft long, and could be extended if needed. Plus there is an existing train line running close-by, and it is nicely situated to serve Sydney's western subs.

There isn't too much urban developments in the immediate vicinity North, East or West of the field, although the South border is quite heavily populated.

P.S. I still think YSRI is the best option, but that's just my opinion

[Dan Collins]

I'd like Schofields to be reopened, and at least used for General Aviation, but I doubt it. The new housing estates to the East (Quakers Hill and surrounds) I believe were (part of) the reason it was closed in the first place.

What has become of this land anyway? The runways are still there and it hasn't been used since it was closed up in the mid 90's!

Dan

[Nigel C]

UWS Hawkesbury (formerly Hawkesbury Agricultural College HAC) bought the HMAS Nirimba site in 1994 and it has been used as remote UWSH campus for lectures since 1995.

It's a shame they bought it and moved many of the non-agricultural faculties (nursing, business studies etc) there as it totally destroyed the vibe of the HAC campus for the residents and also night life. It also wrecked the rugby team (Sydney surburban 1st division club champions in 1994), who haven't been as strong and have slipped a couple of divisions since as a result of the split.
HAC will never be the same.:(

[Russell D]

Here's a pic of Schofields courtesy of Google Earth.

A small correction to what i previously posted...both the Southern and Eastern boundaries are actually quite populated, although its still nice and clear to the North and West boundaries for extentions.

Only problem is a small creek running North-South along the western perimeter, otherwise two of the runways could have been extended much much further to take advantage of the the adjacent field to the west.

[Dan Collins]

Thanks Nigel, and you're quite correct about the UWS and TAFE acquisition of the Nirimba site. It's also home to a couple of schools as well now.

I was wondering what had become of the land with the runways etc as they all appear to still be there - who owns the land and what's the future hold for it?

If memory serves, it's all flood plain (or whatever the term is) so it's not really good for much!?

Dan

[Jethro H]

Richmond is lower than Scofields for floods, but I think Schoes is finished its life for good as the population around it continues to grow.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

The runways are no longer at Schofields in any usable form. Whilst they still show up on sat pics, they've either been graded over, have been grown over, or have generally deteriorated to the point where they'd need digging up and replacing.

I also recall there was an issue with the proximity of the rail line to the northern end of the longest runway - I think at the 1986 Schofields Airshow (the last one?) there were two crash landings of aircraft (an Aztec and a LongEz from memory) which misjudged the little pop up and let down manoeuvre required to negotiate the overhead rail power lines, although I suspect wake vortecies from the helicopter being used to dry out the runway just before the Aztec's crash may have contributed!

If Badgery's Creek has been encroached upon too much, then Schofields is certainly a non-starter!

[Peter Lea]

Just a note about the current status of Schofields Airport.
Outside the Western side of the airport,(west of Eastern Ck) is now being developed as the Stonecutters Ridge residential and golf resort (golf corse designed by Greg Norman). The train line is being duplicated from Quakers Hill to a new Schofields Station that is to be built 800 metres south of the old one. This will put the station near the old entrance to the airport.
Plans I have seen show a large commuter car park and bus transfer terminal will be located there as well to serve new developments on both sides of the line.

Peter

[Grahame Hutchison]

Andrew, I was at that Schofields Air Show and can remember both accidents (I think I have a photograph of both in one of my albums)

[Danny Rizk]

A real shame Schofields is gone......
Never got to see it in action.

[Russell D]

So basically we've lost Schoies and more recently Hoxton Park...:(

[Dan Collins]

Yeh, doesn't look like Schoey's will be coming back. Last activity for me (my father more accurately) out of there would've been around 1994 I think. As part of the Formation team.

Shame about Hoxton Park too... but much like a lot of things in Sydney, it's all making way for urban sprawl (I'll add the Oran Park racetrack to that list as well).

Dan