Perth's New Airport Plan

[Bob C]

Perth's new airport plan will be released on Thursday and is expected
to consolidate both the domestic and international terminals on both
sides of Horrie Miller Drive.

But Westralia Airports Corpration does not expect any development to be
completed for five to seven years !!!!

[Montague S]

must be some bloody development if its not expected to be completed for 5 to 7 years...

[David Sims]

Good to finally see a new airport.

[Montague S]

its not a new airport...far from it! just some work done to the existing facility!

[Rhys Xanthis]

better be a whole new airport.

Coming back from MEL last night, saw they have finally opened up a new carousel for QF, and opened indoor access to Virgin, Tiger, Skywest, Alliance and every other airline.

They havent had something like that open since Ansett ceased ops...

[Bob C]

No, it won't be "a whole new airport", Rhys !

All the discussions to date have been about consolidating the Domestic and International terminals at the site of the existing International terminal plus additional infrastructure.

It's useless to speculate at this stage so we should just wait another few days for the official announcement.

[Rhys Xanthis]

No, it won't be "a whole new airport", Rhys !

All the discussions to date have been about consolidating the Domestic and International terminals at the site of the existing International terminal plus additional infrastructure.

It's useless to speculate at this stage so we should just wait another few days for the official announcement.

By whole new airport, i mean a whole new terminal (bad choice of words i guess), which will obviously have to be built if everything is to take place at the site of the international terminal (which is probably the best option)

[Lukas M]

They should design it like Adelaide, just one long terminal with International in the middle or whatever

[Montague S]

well Lukas if you had a clue about Perth then you'd know that your idea wouldn't work... :rolleyes:

[Rhys Xanthis]

we should just build a big long shed..it will probably be more productive than the current domestic airport...

Being there last night, ill illustrate the picture:

Taxi queue has 4 lanes of about 10-15m snaking around. This is just at that start of the Virgin terminal (Qantas side).

The line then continued and continued and continued until it almost hit the end of the Qantas terminal.
*opens google earth*
going by my quick measurements that probably arent that accurate, the queue was at least 200m long to get a taxi.

Thank God i didnt have to get one..

[Tim C]

They should design it like Adelaide, just one long terminal with International in the middle or whatever


How would this work and suit the current infrastructure?

Cheers

Tim

[Scott Loveday]

Folks,

Is it that the announcement will be in the form of the original master plan for 2024, but being brought forward somewhat?

Incidentally, came through international on Sunday night - quickest experience ever through immigration and quarantine. From aircraft seat to carpark only 15-20 mins.

Cheers

[Bob C]

I don't know Scott.

We will just have to wait another day to find out.

[Montague S]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/01/2232300.htm?section=business

first off will be Terminal WA which will be for the mining and WA movements..then a consolidation of domestic & international terminals on the international side.

$90 million will be allocated for Terminal WA.


* a merged terminal, full completion in 7 years.
* 4x the size of the current international terminal once complete.
* a new 100m regional terminal situated at the location of the international terminal. I presume it is part of the integrated structure. Has priority.
* Qantas is fully behind the project. This is important
* Projected cost - 1 billion dollars.
* 2 hotels
* Infrastructure - new road brdige at Tokin and Leech Hwy
* Infrastructure - "rail link now possible"
* Infrastructure - "immediate" opening/construction of road link between current domestic and international terminal that will cut travel time in half.
* Multistory carpark to be constructed for new terminal

[Rhys Xanthis]

The head of the WAC was on 882 6PR this morning. Explaining it.

It seems like a pretty good plan...he said there would be 40 gates.

However i get the uneasy feeling that this will all eventually become like the current terminals...

I'm not filled with confidence about how they are going to do it, but hopefully when tehy do it will be great.

Also, i didnt know they were building an internal road from Domestic to Intl...spotting locations ahoy:p

[Montague S]

http://i32.tinypic.com/24d51m8.jpg

[Tim C]

Looking good I must say!

[Chris F]

how would you be able to tell? it's hardly a detailed plan, looks like brad geatches knocked this one up just before the press conference...

[Tim C]

how would you be able to tell? it's hardly a detailed plan, looks like brad geatches knocked this one up just before the press conference...

Pretty simple really, I think the plans look good as per my comment. Welcome to the board.

Cheers

[Bruce Bramwell]

Okay - Why is there an aircraft marked Z in the construction zone?

Looks nice, when do they start construction?

[Montague S]

Okay - Why is there an aircraft marked Z in the construction zone?

Looks nice, when do they start construction?

errr..its the North marker. :eek:

[Bruce Bramwell]

errr..its the North marker. :eek:


Okay - I'll get back to the end of the line.......... :(:(:(:(:(

[Brenden S]

Will be interesting however it pans out. At peak times you have 6 intl aircraft, 5 QF domestic (another 4-5 intrastate) and virgin blue with 3 aircraft. Thats just the main domestic.

Intrastate
Skippers 22
National Jet (146/dhc8) 10
National Jet 717 6
Network 7
Skywest 14
Maroomba 5
Alliance 3
Ozjet 1

Total 68 (if I have counted the correct amount aircraft and I should go around one night and count them all)

Not to mention the 5-6 B737-800's that overnight here in Perth.

[Tim C]

I fly out for work once every 2 weeks and its a regular occurance to get a ATC delay of 30 mins at Perth around 6am these days. You know your in trouble when your getting atc delays in Perth! Then when we finally get the ok to head off we end up sitting on the tarmac for another half hour waiting for the 10 regional/domestic and a couple of internationals to leave aswell as arrivals in between.

Cheers

Tim

[Montague S]

well if they can't fit 68 a/c in during a 24hr period with that new plan then they never will, looks like plenty of space to me... :rolleyes:

[Grant Smith]

Interesting to note there plans to be two hotels at the airport...

Would there really need to be 2 hotels at YPPH?

[Bruce Bramwell]

Probably could handle two hotels, one I should think is plenty....

I like the idea of the rail link though - bout bloody time!

[Bob C]

Hi Grant

Perth is desperately short of hotel rooms at present due to the booming economy so one and better still, two new hotels will be most welcome as I believe that Observation City at Scarborough Beach is earmarked to be converted into luxury apartments thereby seeing another couple of hundred hotel rooms disappear.

Bruce, I guess the rail link will only be welcome if you can use it without travelling all over Perth to get on a train to go to the airport.

I'm not sure of the planned route and I presume it won't cater for Fremantle or the southern or western suburbs. Perhaps the planners need to look at an integrated rail/bus system where people all over Perth have the option of using convenient public transport to get to the airport.

Brenden, I've also been wondering about the many aircraft that would use the new complex, particularly the WA terminal where I guess Qantaslink will also base at least 8 B717s or their bigger replacements. It will awfully busy from about 0500, then from about 1500 into the early evening.

Surely WAC wouldn't expect props to operate from the existing facilities whilst jets move over to the new WA terminal - that would kill some operators.

So do we expect to see everything move over -Metros, Cessnas, Dash 8s, Brasilias etc as well as the jets and F50s from Skywest, National Jet, Network, Alliance, Ozjet and probably Skippers by then as well as whoever else might join in.

And we're talking about today's fleets - who knows what they will be in seven years time !

And then there's another question - what happens to the existing National Jet, Skippers and Network Aviation terminals ? Will they be demolished ? And of course what about all the new tarmacs and rumoured hangars being built at the regional precinct at present ? What will they be used for after 2015 ?

And the existing domestic terminal ? Will that be demolished and can we expect to see a commercial/industrial development spring up there ?

Will the engineering facilities, Maroomba Airlines, general aviation operators etc and Perth Flight Centre remain where they are ?

Interesting times ahead for Perth.

[Carsten Bauer]

They mention in another article that all the airlines have agreed to move into the new facilities.
Out of Network, Skywest, Alliance, Skippers and National Jet, only Skippers I believe have agreed.

What about the access road to the Terminal 1 right now? From memory 6 roundabouts? And the size of "Terminal WA" will not be big enough.

NJS Alone on a Tues-Thurs have nearly 1000 pax in the morning, and the same coming back at night. No room for engineering facilities, or GSE either.

Well it will be an interesting few years coming up.

On another topic, NJS has now started renovations on the area immediately outside it's terminal. When complete, it will have the taxi rank on Valentine Road, like Skippers have, and a entry and exit lane to the terminal, with drop off lanes only. Just like outside T2 and T3.

Will post some photos later on tonight.

Cheers

Carsten

[Grant Smith]

Hi Grant

Perth is desperately short of hotel rooms at present due to the booming economy so one and better still, two new hotels will be most welcome as I believe that Observation City at Scarborough Beach is earmarked to be converted into luxury apartments thereby seeing another couple of hundred hotel rooms disappear.

Bobby,

I wouldn't say Perth is "desperately" short of hotel rooms. There are currently in excess of 4300 rooms in the Perth area. Having looked at the month by month statistics for the peak period (summer) 100% occupancy across the city wasn't recorded on any day from December through February.

I don't see the point in flooding an area with accommodation when there isn't the figures to back up such decisions. 1 hotel at Perth airport would IMO be suitable.

Granted, the addition of 2 hotels is by no means "flooding", but I think that any hotel developments in Perth would be better focused on being in the city.

[Bob C]

Hi Grant

"The Perth area" - how is that defined as I wouldn't want a hotel room in Rooty Hill or Gosford if I was on a spotting trip to Sydney airport or going to the footy ?

I'm only reporting what I read in the local paper and from discussions with business people and those constantly frustrated at trying to find hotel rooms in the CBD and nearby suburbs for visitors. The net increase in rooms after Observation city closes down will help but Perth will still struggle for short term accommodation if immigration continues at several hundred each week.

Families are often accommodated in hotels until more suitable accommodation can be found and the problem is exacerbated by the lack of suitable rentals or serviced apartments, hence longer hotel stays. I had first hand experience in 1988 when I moved from Sydney with my wife and baby daughter.

Not to mention the competition from the influx of business visitors, East coast footy supporters, convention delegates, country people on holiday or visiting US military etc etc.

For instance, the USS Wasp arrived in Fremantle yesterday with 2,000+ sailors and marines, many of whom will stay in hotels. Multiply that by 2.5 when a nuke carrier comes in and you can see the problem just from the US military.

Even country based RFDS Western Operations crews who have to overnight in Perth have great difficulty in finding rooms. I know, because when my wife used to work with RFDS, she had to make the bookings and was often frustrated at the lack of suitable rooms available in the city.

A certain standard was required to meet EBA provisions and when the only accommodation available was in the outer suburbs and didn't meet the required standard, complaints were often made to management but the situation was out of their control.

This was happening three years ago and is worse now. There were even times when the only rooms available were in Mandurah, 70kms south of Perth so you can imagine the extra cost of taxi fares !

The RFDS has finally recognised the accommodation problem in Perth by having six accommodation units in the soon to commence, multi million dollar redevelopment of its headquarters at Jandakot. So crews arriving late at night will be accommodated on base but how that will affect the EBA is anyone's guess.

Also, the RFDS is seeking funding to increase its fleet from 11 to 15 aircraft over the next few years to cope with the large increase in aeromedical flights throughout W A, particularly from the mining areas in the North West.

A fully equipped PC12 costs about $7 million and has a lead in time of 1 to 2 years so hopefully donations from the public and Government funds can be in place soon to allow orders to be placed.

[Grant Smith]

Hi Grant

"The Perth area" - how is that defined as I wouldn't want a hotel room in Rooty Hill or Gosford if I was on a spotting trip to Sydney airport or going to the footy ?

G'day Bobby,

"The Perth Area" as I understand it from the stats that I have, these hotels all fall within an approximate 1 km radius of the CBD - the Observation City wasn't included in the figures I mentioned earlier. The 4300+ rooms is spread accross 19 different hotels.

I'm only reporting what I read in the local paper and from discussions with business people and those constantly frustrated at trying to find hotel rooms in the CBD and nearby suburbs for visitors. The net increase in rooms after Observation city closes down will help but Perth will still struggle for short term accommodation if immigration continues at several hundred each week.

Now if you take into account those 19 hotels that represent 4300+ rooms and then take a look at (for example) wotif.com, you will see there are more than 19 hotels in the "Perth area". I think it's more a problem of quality and not quantity, as there appears to be the quantity but not the quality of cities such as Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.

Families are often accommodated in hotels until more suitable accommodation can be found and the problem is exacerbated by the lack of suitable rentals or serviced apartments, hence longer hotel stays. I had first hand experience in 1988 when I moved from Sydney with my wife and baby daughter.

Not to mention the competition from the influx of business visitors, East coast footy supporters, convention delegates, country people on holiday or visiting US military etc etc.

For instance, the USS Wasp arrived in Fremantle yesterday with 2,000+ sailors and marines, many of whom will stay in hotels. Multiply that by 2.5 when a nuke carrier comes in and you can see the problem just from the US military.

This was what I was hinting at in my earlier post about "flooding" the city with accommodation, it isn't every day or even every month that you get a US military vessel coming into port, so whilst adding a dozen or even half-a-dozen additional accommodation facilities into the area will resolve the shortfall in available accommodation for that period, the problem lies after these "boom" days are over and the US military have sailed onto their next port and the happy Swans, Lions or other Victorian supporters have gone home - it leaves a rather large gap in the occupancy for all the hotels. Whilst this is usually good for the punters i.e cheaper rooms, it's not so good for the shareholders i.e cheap rooms = small profit.

There has to be sustainable occupancies or a specific niche market for there to be any justification for building new hotels / serviced apartments.

[Justin L]

This article from The Australian on May 2. The artist's impression of the new Perth terminal check-in area looks very much like Adelaide. Only an impression I know, and once passed through security the gate layout will be different as per the plans earlier in this post

The article also mentions that Terminal WA is planned to be ready in two years to initially take some pressure off the current domestic terminal, and that the wall between the two domestic terminals would be removed to allow people to walk between them. Jetstar and Tiger wish to consolidate their domestic and international operations as soon as possible. (Maybe that's when Jetstar will launch international services from Perth??)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23630304-23349,00.html

[Bob C]

Hi Justin

I've counted at least 62 aircraft which are used on Intrastate routes in W A - a physical count on those on the apron yesterday (3/5) and additional research of the CASA website.

By operator : Alliance 3, Maroomba 2, National Jet 8, Network 9, Qantaslink 6, Skippers 21 and Skywest 13 = 62

By type : BAe146 6, Beechcraft 200 1, Boeing 717 6, Brasilia 12, Cessna 441 4, Dash 8 8, F50 7, F100 11, Metro 23 6 and RJ79 1 = 62

These totals are obviously subject to change daily but I wouldn't suggest by much. Even if Qantaslink operated from the main terminal (6-8 aircraft usually overnight in Perth) and allowing for say a similar number in maintenance, that works out to 46 aircraft which would use Terminal WA and the Vision Statement says there is parking for 34.

And that's on today's figures.

[Carsten Bauer]

NJS = 11, NJA, NJC, NJE, NJL, NJN, NJR, NJT, NJX, YAD, YAE and JSJ (NJG is in ADL), but yes, It'll be interesting.
NJS, Network, Skywest, Virgin and Alliance among some customers, have stated that the new terminal will not meet their needs.

[Chris F]

could NJS charter ops remain at their present terminal, especially as jet charter remains able to operate un-screened? also i think it's difficult to see network, skippers, etc moving from their present locations. all you should see at terminal wa is skywest, qflink, ozjet, virgin etc...

[Bob C]

The total is now up to 71 and another two operators after I received some input from a few people.

With that number I can't see how they can all operate from Terrminal WA so would expect only the majors like Qantaslink, Skywest and National Jet to move with the others staying where they are. Those three operators have 30 aircraft between them now.

[Brenden S]

The new Terminal WA is slated to be able to handle 1000 pax in a hour. NJS do 800-850 a hour at peak. Go figure!

The Maintenance section south of the Terminal WA is for Skywest.

[Bob C]

And there'e one other operator I've forgotten - QANTAS !

It operates Intrastate WA services from Perth to Kalgoorlie, Karratha, Port Hedland and Broome using B737s. So will those services operate from Terminal WA as well ?

I would expect so to reduce inconvenience and confusion for passengers.

[Rhys Xanthis]

oh wow how is this not new....were seeing capacity problems before the thing is even built:p

[Chris F]

i think you will find the TWA will handle Intrastate RPT jet and turboprop services. i.e. Skywest, QFLink, Qantas, Virgin Blue, Ozjet and Alliance. Not every single operator that flies an aircraft from Perth Airport to within WA.

[Bob C]

Hi Chris

Yep, but there are NJS, Skippers and Network to consider as well as they're amongst the bigger operators.

The only intrastate WA flight VB operates is from Perth to Broome and Ozjet only flies to Derby, if we exclude flights to mine sites, which I'm not sure they actually do.

According to the Vision Statement "....Phase 1 will see a new terminal built for services within Western Australia. Named 'Terminal WA', this facility will [B]suit fly-in fly-out workers and provide a boost for Western Australian tourism." Terminal WA will also be capable of handling medium sized jet aircraft used on interstate routes.

The statement can't be taken literally and the situation is confusing at this point. There will be a lot of headaches before the users of Terminal WA are sorted out and its use definitely needs further clarification.

[Chris F]

true, also i dont believe WAC have obtained any formal committment for operators to move to the new building. i cant see network re-locating brasilias and F100's from the other side of the runway where their maintenance and ops facilities are...

[Montague S]

The Tourism Council of Western Australia says a shortage of hotel rooms in Perth will lead to new investment in the state.

A Deloitte survey has revealed that Perth's hotels were full for 85 per cent of the last year.

The occupancy rates were higher than international tourist destinations including London, Singapore and Dubai.

The Property Council says the shortage of hotel rooms is pushing room prices up to $400 a night.

The Tourism Council's Scott Henderson has welcomed the higher rates, saying they will lead to new hotels being built in Perth.

"The economic impact will be that investors can look and see that there will be a good return on their investment in Western Australia and we're confident that there'll be some new investment in hotels in the near future," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/07/2237413.htm?site=perth

[Grant Smith]

The Tourism Council of Western Australia says a shortage of hotel rooms in Perth will lead to new investment in the state.

A Deloitte survey has revealed that Perth's hotels were full for 85 per cent of the last year.

The occupancy rates were higher than international tourist destinations including London, Singapore and Dubai.

The Property Council says the shortage of hotel rooms is pushing room prices up to $400 a night.

The Tourism Council's Scott Henderson has welcomed the higher rates, saying they will lead to new hotels being built in Perth.

"The economic impact will be that investors can look and see that there will be a good return on their investment in Western Australia and we're confident that there'll be some new investment in hotels in the near future," he said.

Interesting to see where Deloitte are getting their figures from, I also fail to see how the occupancy levels of hotels in London, Singapore and Dubai is relevant.

As I mentioned in a previous post. Perth has in excess of 4,300 rooms and average occupancy at 82.28%.

Now, Singapore has in excess of 19,800 rooms at approximately 81.82% occupancy.

London has in exess of 53,400 rooms at approximately 80.15% occupancy and

Dubai has in excess of 19,900 rooms at approximately 82.40% occupancy.

Hopefully you can see what I mean by relevance. Not really comparing apples with apples. If they want to compare apples with apples, then they could probably use Brisbane as they have a comparable number of rooms (in excess of 4300 rooms) and a comparable occupancy (83.61%)

[Montague S]

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,23670790-948,00.html

[Brenden S]

Granny, not disputing your figures, but just about every night I head down the road for dinner (when I work down that way) There are No Vacancy signs up everywhere. (Along great eastern Hwy near the airport)

[Philip Argy]

Okay - Why is there an aircraft marked Z in the construction [sic] zone?

I don't know if you were truly mistaken or just feigning it, Bruce, but that has given me the biggest laugh of anything on this Board ... ever! :)

[Chris F]

i can confirm only skywest, ozjet, alliance etc will move to the new terminal WA. QFLink will remain with QF in their existing terminal until the new domestic precinct is developed.

[Bruce Bramwell]

I don't know if you were truly mistaken or just feigning it, Bruce, but that has given me the biggest laugh of anything on this Board ... ever! :)


It truely was a mistake [feel kinda stupid now though]... Hey what can I say, 18hr shift and the last 3hours was directing traffic in freezing temps!!!!!!

That remind me.... I need coffee

[Carsten Bauer]

i can confirm only skywest, ozjet, alliance etc will move to the new terminal WA. QFLink will remain with QF in their existing terminal until the new domestic precinct is developed.

Hi Chris,

Where did you hear this from?
I was under the impression that nobody had signed up yet.

[Steve Jones]

So will Skywest's connecting flights through to DRW and MEL leave from Terminal WA? Catchy name, but wouldn't it be easier to call them terminals 1,2,3 etc, or if you wanted to be tricky A,B,C...

[Bruce Bramwell]

ABC is easy as one two three!!!! :D:D:D:D

[now hides behind computer]