QF removes First from 747s and selected 380s

[Jon Harris]

Just read in today's Travel Daily:

Subject to QF board approval:

* removal of First on all 747s
* First will remain only on 12 380s for LAX / SIN / LHR flights only
* 4-class 380s will have business class reduced from 72 to 60 and a new 48 seat upper deck economy (not sure if that should have read Premium - just stating what TT said)

Source: Travel Daily 01FEB10

[Brad Myer]

Its apparently a $450mil intl product revamp which will apparently see:

All B744s in a 3 class config (J,Y+,and Y) featuring the A380 style seats and IFE.

Apparently the Intl A333 and A332 fleet will also recieve the A380 Y class seats and the new A380 style IFE.

Full details to be announced in the next few weeks.

Anyone know more?

[Rhys Xanthis]

Well the new A330's for transcontinental with IFE is the a380 system, so that makes sense.

[Montague S]

* 4-class 380s will have business class reduced from 72 to 60 and a new 48 seat upper deck economy (not sure if that should have read Premium - just stating what TT said)

Source: Travel Daily 01FEB10

would have made sense to do it in the first place... :eek:

[Andre H]

Just read in today's Travel Daily:

Subject to QF board approval:

* removal of First on all 747s
* First will remain only on 12 380s for LAX / SIN / LHR flights only
* 4-class 380s will have business class reduced from 72 to 60 and a new 48 seat upper deck economy (not sure if that should have read Premium - just stating what TT said)

Source: Travel Daily 01FEB10


It´s a great idea, economy class in the upper deck. it´s a better seat configuration 2-4-2 ( like SQ ) instead of 3-4-3 if you are travelling as a pair.

[D Chan]

would have made sense to do it in the first place... :eek:

but times were good before the GFC

[Ash W]

Andre I think you will find premium economy will be extended on the upper deck rather than conversion to economy.

Have a look at the Qantas seat map for the A380 and you will see 12 J seats in rows 24 and 25. Take these out and replace with 21 premium Y seats, adjust some of the awful seats at the back of the Y+ for crew use and you have your 60 J and 48 Y+ config.

[Andre H]

Make sense :)

[Arthur T]

With Qantas' planned removal of First Class, there will no longer be any first class seats between Hong Kong and Australia, also I wonder the high yield market between Bangkok and Australia will also lost First Class service.

For several Asian cities like Hong Kong, Bangkok, New York and Tokyo I think the loadings for F should be positive, so I do wonder whether it is that worth for Qantas to remove the high revenue service to those cities with high demand.

Furthermore, I feel angry and frustrated that Qantas still haven't learn the lesson from those aging and poorly maintained Boeing 747s (and that's why I am so scared about them), especially after the QF30 incident. Rather to waste money renovating the dangerous and aging B744s I think phasing them out and replace with A380s will be smarter and money saving move than renovating them.

[Nick C]

For several Asian cities like Hong Kong......

If there was demand for F for HKG-OZ. Why is CX only sending 2-class birds? :rolleyes:

[Nick C]

Config of 4-class 388 will be 14F/60J/32Y+/380Y
LD: 14F/332Y
UD: 60J/32Y+/48Y

[Ash W]

How are they going to get 48 Y seats into the space vacated by 12 J seats on the upper deck? That equates to 6 rows at 8 abreast. Seems a bit much to me.

Arthur, you seem to forget that 6 of Qantas's 747's were delivered in 2002/2003 and there are also 3 or so -OJ series planes that were delivered 1999/2000. Hardly what I would call dangerous and aging aircraft.

As for the rest again they are far from mechanical poor or dangerous, -OJK was quite clearly a freak event rather than sign of poor maintenance. A cabin refresh will give a few more years use out of them, maybe by then Qantas will have worked out aircraft it wants for the markets where an A380 is just too big.

Also I don't think Qantas would be removing F from these aircraft if there was a market for them. Quite clearly over recent years the trend has been for pax who once brought F going to J and some J passengers going to premium Y. Indeed if you look at what is offered today and J and premium Y and compare it to F and J 10 years ago you would say they were very similar indeed.

[Montague S]

but times were good before the GFC

times are still good, just that people are spending a little less...


For several Asian cities like Hong Kong, Bangkok, New York and Tokyo I think the loadings for F should be positive, so I do wonder whether it is that worth for Qantas to remove the high revenue service to those cities with high demand.

Arthur, QF doesn't send aircraft with First Class to Tokyo.

[Philip Argy]

I hope the A380 IFE is fixed in J class before it's rolled out too extensively. It was shocking when I went to London and back last October - a very user friendly system plagued by a hardware or software bug that damaged the otherwise great A380 experience:
http://yssyforum.net/board/showpost.php?p=36139&postcount=21

[NickN]

Furthermore, I feel angry and frustrated that Qantas still haven't learn the lesson from those aging and poorly maintained Boeing 747s (and that's why I am so scared about them), especially after the QF30 incident. Rather to waste money renovating the dangerous and aging B744s I think phasing them out and replace with A380s will be smarter and money saving move than renovating them.


Just about every carrier deploying 744's have aircraft of the same age which are still flying day after day with no issues.

Again, someone bandering about crticism and "poor maintenance", yet nothing to back up your claims. As far as I am aware QF don't have the worst maintenance programme going around, in fact it appears to be relatively decent.

Further to that you sunk to the level of calling the 744 "dangerous". If that's the case why are they still in service?

QF cannot replace ALL 744's at this stage with A380's as it would not be viable economically, add to that the fact that Airbus can only squeeze out around 20-30 or so A380's a year to accommodate all customers you wont see an ALL A380 fleet for a very long time to come.

I suppose you better get used to the idea of flying the "Dangerous and poorly maintained" 744 for a while longer.

[Marty H]

The thing against the B744 at the moment isnt that is dangerous but its fuel burn compared to say your B77W or B77LR and the A380 that is why airlines are dumping them very fast at the moment QF are clearly doing the same with their B744's but people must remember their ER's are only 7-8yrs old.

[Todd Hendry]

Arthur,

Why do you say the 747's are dangerous?They are very well maintained.
It will be nice for the customers to have a nice new interior to fly to their destination in. Lie flat skybeds (finally) and maybe, fingers crossed, new bins etc.

Todd.

[Owen H]

Furthermore, I feel angry and frustrated that Qantas still haven't learn the lesson from those aging and poorly maintained Boeing 747s (and that's why I am so scared about them), especially after the QF30 incident

You've got to be kidding me. They're aging (like everything), but they are as well maintained as any other operator, if not more so. They are perfectly serviceable aircraft with many years ahead of them, as they are so carefully and impeccably maintained.

If you seriously think that QF's 744's are badly maintained and you won't fly them, then you should give up air travel altogether.

As to premium to Hong Kong - CLEARLY the market isn't there, or they would be doing it! Qantas aren't stupid enough to spend a lot of money removing a class from the aircraft if it was profitable to keep it there! As others have pointed out - Cathay do the same thing. I wonder why...

[Andrew P]

Agree most in business just want to get from A to B, with the ability to work and/or sleep and/or rest. Food & wine are just an added bonus.

So the current lie flat bed in J more than adequately provides these needs.

Corporate will not now use F, and won’t go back to First in the long term, especially on flights of less than 9 hours, i.e. Aussie-Asia

Then only ones in First are politicians, movie starts & lotto winners (but then politicians & movie starts have their own business jets, so all that is left is Lotto Winners)

[Greg McDonald]

The cynic in me wonders how long it will be before the price of J moves closer to what F was and so on......

[Brad Myer]

It will be nice for the customers to have a nice new interior to fly to their destination in. Lie flat skybeds (finally) and maybe, fingers crossed, new bins etc.

Maybe the bins and wall panels will be updated as well?

This article states the B744 toilets will be updated during the upgrades/reconfig:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/first-class-to-become-a-thing-of-the-past/story-e6frfq80-1225825792646

Thanks

[Marty H]

Agree most in business just want to get from A to B, with the ability to work and/or sleep and/or rest. Food & wine are just an added bonus.

So the current lie flat bed in J more than adequately provides these needs.

Corporate will not now use F, and won’t go back to First in the long term, especially on flights of less than 9 hours, i.e. Aussie-Asia

Then only ones in First are politicians, movie starts & lotto winners (but then politicians & movie starts have their own business jets, so all that is left is Lotto Winners)

And those on QF 'duty travel'

[Anthony T]

Hi There

Most of the movie stars and other entertainers who don't have their own jets, are now on V Australia. (Well the younger one's anyway :D )

so all that is left is Lotto Winners

If I ever won the lotto, I won't be spending it on QF First Class.

Anthony T

[Marty H]

Anthony Im quietly enjoying the killing QF are getting across the Pacific on Tues and Sat out of MEL, I was also told by someone who flew on SYD-LAX on the 28th of Jan with QF ont he A380 that the flight had 50 pax onboard total, whilst V was oversold:D

[Arthur T]

Re Marty:
Only 50 pax on the A380!! :mad:

Surely Qantas must have been making a huge loss on that flight. But just wondering whether that's kinda one off or loadings is always been that bad. If that's latter I think Qantas will be better off to put those big birds on high demand routes such as BKK and HKG instead. At least if Qantas is deploying A380 to Hong Kong I will not need to change at Singapore and waste my time to avoid those airlines flying direct which either is dangerous or of poor service quality.

[Ash W]

Arthur, quite clearly they would have been one off's, also remember the 'figures' have come from a friend of a friend, passed onto us by someone who seems to have an axe to grind when it comes to Qantas.

As for your assertion that Qantas would be better off running A380's on 'higher' demand routes such as Bangkok or Hong Kong, I must you gotta be kidding. A route like Hong Kong is better served by smaller more frequent flights. As for Bangkok the demand for there is not that high. The only reason to run them through Bangkok is to increase capacity to London.

[Marty H]

Re Marty:
Only 50 pax on the A380!! :mad:

Surely Qantas must have been making a huge loss on that flight. But just wondering whether that's kinda one off or loadings is always been that bad. If that's latter I think Qantas will be better off to put those big birds on high demand routes such as BKK and HKG instead. At least if Qantas is deploying A380 to Hong Kong I will not need to change at Singapore and waste my time to avoid those airlines flying direct which either is dangerous or of poor service quality.


I would hope its a one off I have noticed some of thier A380 services out of MEL though are sometimes sub 200 or only around 250-260 pax

[Montague S]

Hi There

Most of the movie stars and other entertainers who don't have their own jets, are now on V Australia. (Well the younger one's anyway :D )



that's what Branson and the companies he creates do...

[Grant Smith]

At least if Qantas is deploying A380 to Hong Kong I will not need to change at Singapore and waste my time to avoid those airlines flying direct which either is dangerous or of poor service quality.

I think you need to pull your head in a little bit champ!

Please, for everyones enjoyment list the airlines flying direct to VHHH ex-YSSY that are 1. Dangerous and 2. "of poor service quality"

You chose to fly via WSSS, so there's no point in whinging to the board that your time is being wasted because (for what ever reason) you chose not to fly direct to VHHH.

/END rant :mad:

[Mike W]

The cynic in me wonders how long it will be before the price of J moves closer to what F was and so on......

I guess, to be fair Greg, the quality of the product (J) today compares very favourably to the F of bygone eras. Especially the seat and features, etc if not the service. I share your cynicism though.

Re the number of pax on the 380, one might say that this vindicates the theory that point to point frequency is becoming more important than what hub and spoke has been in the past. Newer, longer ranged smaller twins (330, 777 et al) of course don't help the cause of the VLAs either.

[Montague S]

At least if Qantas is deploying A380 to Hong Kong I will not need to change at Singapore and waste my time to avoid those airlines flying direct which either is dangerous or of poor service quality.

SIA deploy the A380 to VHHH too, I guess they are dangerous and of a poor quality?

[NickN]

I'd say that if any of the operators in and out of Singapore and the like were "dangerous" they'd be out of service or grounded quick smart.

If you want to see "dangerous" perhaps a trip to Africa might change your definition of what dangerous carriers are.

I think global aviation has come a long way from past practices with safety and passenger comfort improved ten fold.

Newer, safer maintenance and construction practices coupled with better technology has made flying a very enjoyable experience for millions of people worldwide each day.

[James K]

Anthony Im quietly enjoying the killing QF are getting across the Pacific on Tues and Sat out of MEL, I was also told by someone who flew on SYD-LAX on the 28th of Jan with QF ont he A380 that the flight had 50 pax onboard total, whilst V was oversold:D

I can see the figures and I'm happy to tell you your friend was totally wrong.
Sure the loads that day were not great. Swings and roundabouts as I'd hope you might understand. The load on the return flt was very healthy.
I hope you tell us all when V goes out with light loads as it will happen one day.

[Marty H]

Will be happy to James, can you PM me the pax load for the A380 flight SYD-LAX flight on the 28th of Jan so I can correct him.

Cheers

[D Chan]

I will not need to change at Singapore and waste my time to avoid those airlines flying direct which either is dangerous or of poor service quality.

have you forgotten what happened in Taipei? and also this: http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/belfast/SIAscrape/SIAscrape.html

[Brad Myer]

Ok according to the announcements today:

Details of the changes:
B747-400
* nine B747-400 will be upgraded and fitted with Qantas' A380 standard seats and inflight product, including a fully flat Skybed sleeper seat in Business, an award-winning Marc Newson designed and Recaro manufactured seat in Economy and state-of-the-art on-demand Panasonic inflight entertainment in all classes
* First class cabins will be removed and Business seats installed in their place
* the three-class configuration will offer 359 seats (58 Business, 36 Premium Economy and 265 Economy), an increase of 52 seats overall

A380
* 12 A380s will continue to fly with a four-class configuration, including First class, but be refitted to reduce Business seating and increase Premium Economy and Economy seating
* the remaining eight aircraft will be delivered from 2012 in a three-class configuration and with no First cabin
* A380 seat numbers are to be confirmed subject to discussions with Airbus and suppliers
The upgrade and reconfiguration program will commence at the end of 2011 and is scheduled for completion by the end of 2013. It will be funded through the combination of operating cash flows and pre-existing debt facilities. The majority of capital expenditure will take place in 2012.
Further details of the program, including where work will be undertaken, will be confirmed once contractual arrangements are finalised.

Only 9x B744s will remain in the fleet and they will be the ones getting the upgraded cabins.

Looks like they will not bother to reconfig all the other B744s which by the looks of it will all be gone in the next 2 years.

[Marty H]

So you would assume the nine B744's would be the six ER's and the three youngest RR powered birds???

[Sarah C]

Correct.

[Oliver Gigacz]

Also stated that they will be flying daily services from both MEL and SYD. But I we probably all guessed this would happen.

[Mick B]

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to where the 9 remaining 744s will fly once all 20 A380s have been delivered?

EZE, JNB and SFO? That would be about right for 9 aircraft + maintenance wouldn't it? Or will SFO eventually go to the A380?

Obviously the network will change a bit in the next 4-5 years, but it's pretty safe to say that it won't be in the form of growth unless it's got a star on the tail :(

[James Smith]

Other potential routes to continue 744 operations are BRI & AKL to LAX and SYD to NYC via LAX. Will QANTAS fly the A380 from LAX to NYC?

But as said, 787 operations and any 777 order could change this.

[Mike W]

and any 777 order could change this.

While I'd like to see this happen James, don't hold your breath on it. They've had plenty of chances to get on to it (777) before now and with all the talk about the next gen CRFP Aircraft coming on stream (which possibly includes the 777's replacement), will they invest in "old tech"? (as Dixon [in]famously called the 747-8.)

Revisiting the main topic of this thread. My question is, are Qantas reducing the 747 fleet to nine or are they taking the first class out of nine aircraft with the other (if any) 747s already only being two class?

[Greg McDonald]

From NEWS.COM.AU:

QANTAS says passenger comfort will not be compromised by its profit recovery plan to increase passenger numbers on its long-haul A380 super jumbos to 550 people.
The airline will add 100 extra seats to 12 of its airborne mammoths.

It will also lift passenger numbers on nine Boeing 747s, from 305 to 359, effectively ending the golden era of luxury air travel, reports the Herald Sun.

Expensive first-class cabins aboard both model airlines will be carved up to make way for extra business class and premium economy seating.

Alan Joyce, the airline's chief executive, said first-class seats would be available only on Australia-London flights and on trans-Pacific services to Los Angeles.

He said that new arrangement would not see passengers crammed like cattle into economy cabins.

"They'll get a better deal because we will be stripping out the old economy seats on the 747s and replacing them with the wider seats used by economy passengers travelling on the A380,'' he said.

"They will also be getting a new entertainment system preloaded with 500 movies.''

[Brad Myer]

Any truth to the news that an A330 mini cabin refresh which will begin shortly?

Intl A333/A332s will receive the new Panasonic IFE system and have the new (red) Y class seat covers (already on Intl A332s) plus the new A380 style carpet and curtains installed?

[Arthur T]

I sincerely welcome the decision of refitting the existing A330s and B747s to A380 cabin style, which I believe the service standard will bring back up and make Qantas to be more attractive.

However, I would like to mention about the safety standards for Qantas. Although it has been lucky enough to have no fatal accidents, major accidents are still common in this carrier. There was just another A333 returned Sydney because of landing gear failure. I seriously don't think and is hard to believe Qantas is a safe airline anymore, especially according to its recent safety records.

As the result, Qantas is on my 'Dangerous' carrier list flying directly from YSSY to VHHH.

Meanwhile, Qantas and Virgin Atlantic are on my 'Poor Service' carrier list. I cannot stand the service quality of Qantas luggage handlers as they have already break at least 3 of my checked luggages. The issue also appeared on Virgin as well as I cannot stand any carrier who are weighting passengers' hand luggage. Furthermore breakfast provided by Virgin bound from Hong Kong is the worst among both 3 direct carriers.

Finally I would like to know whether the new products will be deployed onto Boeing 737-800 and 767-300(ER) Aircrafts. I think if they are still refusing to install AVODs on domestic flights the competitveness for Qantas will eventually been taken over by Virgin Blue.

[Todd Hendry]

Arthur T,

Which airlines are "your" "safe" airlines?

Which airline has good service?

Todd.

[Jack B]

It was an A332 and the landing gear failure wasn't what I'd call a "dangerous" situation.

People in Australia seem to love to pick apart every aspect of Qantas, and compare it to Singapore Airlines etc. The service on Singapore Airlines is DISTINCTLY Asian. It can also be argued that the service on Singapore Airlines is "fake", as the crew can be seen as rather "robotic".

Qantas is AUSTRALIAN. They hire crew of various ages and backgrounds, and train them well. The service reflects Australian culture.

Virgin Blue, for example, hires mostly young crew, and seems they also hire far less male crew than Qantas. There are exceptions, but your kidding yourself if you think that isn't true. Most are probably at the airline only a few years, so they're bound to be bubbly as anything. As for Virgin's actual product? I can do without paying for the ham and cheese sandwhiches, pringles and packet soup

If you really think Qantas is that bad, fly with an airline in Europe or America. You'll see why Qantas has consistently been in the top 5 skytrax airlines.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Although it has been lucky enough to have no fatal accidents, major accidents are still common in this carrier
Name some "major accidents" Qantas has had lately Arthur...
There was just another A333 returned Sydney because of landing gear failure.
It was a hydraulic problem...if it was a "landing gear failure", they would still be cleaning up the mess at YSSY...

[Philip Argy]

As the result, Qantas is on my 'Dangerous' carrier list flying directly from YSSY to VHHH

In my respectful opinion that's not a responsible thing to say on a board like this - "dangerous" is way too extreme a word to use given what you have described.

By all means express the view that the crew to passenger ratio change that will result from the seating increase will make the airline less safe in your view, but to put it in the category of "dangerous" I think is inappropriate.

Just my view, anyway ...

[Grant Smith]

Arthur - I note you're flying SQ. Why is this airline not on your 'dangerous' list? They killed 83 people in the Taipei crash back in 2000? Or how about that tail strike in Auckland caused by pilot error? This sounds like a 'very dangerous airline' to me Arthur...

Oh Andrew, didn't you know this was due to the fact that the B744 is a dangerous aircraft and should be removed from service post haste, not a dangerous airline... :D

[Michael Mak]

SQ is a very dangerous airline too, the A380 should be grounded immediately.
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/kitchen-fault-forces-singapore-airlines-a380-to-turn-back-20091217-kyiu.html

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/singapore-airlines-a380-turns-back-after-engine-failure-20090928-g904.html

The issue also appeared on Virgin as well as I cannot stand any carrier who are weighting passengers' hand luggage.Doesn't Cathay Pacific do that too?

I cannot stand the service quality of Qantas luggage handlers as they have already break at least 3 of my checked luggages. What did you put inside your checked luggages? If they are so fragile, maybe you should put them into your cabin luggage? Qantas, along with many other airlines use contractors in outports.

I think if they are still refusing to install AVODs on domestic flights the competitveness for Qantas will eventually been taken over by Virgin Blue. Until Virgin Blue offers its Live2Air system for free for all passengers, you can hardly compare QF IFE with them.