Qantas flight forced to turn back due to engine problem

[Ryan K.]

Qantas flight forced to turn back due to engine problem CRAIG PLATT
April 6, 2010 - 11:13AM

Another Qantas flight has been forced to turn back after take-off, this time due to an engine problem.

QF1 from Bangkok to Heathrow Airport in London experienced an engine surge shortly after take-off at 4am (AEST) this morning.

The captain of the Boeing 747 shut down the engine and returned to Bangkok Suvarnabhumi Airport at 5.30am.

The incident comes the day after a Qantas passenger threatened to bring down a flight from Sydney to Singapore using the power of his mind.

Engineers were examining the QF1 aircraft and a replacement jet was being flown from Sydney to Bangkok. The flight's 335 passengers were transferred to a hotel, Qantas said.

"There was no safety issue at any stage – Boeing 747 aircraft can fly normally on three engines," Qantas said in a statement.

The incident comes after another long-haul Qantas flight was grounded in Melbourne yesterday after a cockpit window cracked during a flight from Los Angeles.

The Australian airline has faced a string of technical problems on its flights in recent months - from tyres blowing out during landing, to engine troubles.

On Friday, a flight from Perth to Brisbane was delayed after a wing flap defect was found.

On the same day, a Qantas Boeing 747 travelling from Brisbane to Los Angeles was grounded after a wiring problem was found in one of its engines.

Last Wednesday, two tyres burst on an A380 superjumbo as it landed at Sydney Airport.

The day before, a Sydney-Singapore flight turned back when a pilot found an engine problem.

In December, a 747 flight from Singapore to Melbourne was forced to turn back after an engine surge.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-flight-forced-to-turn-back-due-to-engine-problem-20100406-rnyi.html

Another Qantas drama involving their 747s.
Is it really maintenance issue or their 747s are just too old. If these sort of issues continue to happen, it is not only going to affect their reliability but also damper the public image of Qantas aircrafts.

Why hasn't QF consider leasing some 777s rather than waiting for the arrival of their 380s and 787s? Obviously with the current feet they got, only the 747s can make the distance and this could potentially harm them if the 747s continue to behave like this.

[Sam Chui]

Hi Ryan

CX, UA, LH, TG, BA, CI, DL and others all operate B747-400 low msn number from early 90s so QF is not alone here. I see your point QF do not have an alternate one compare to other carriers. Can't comment the other stuff though.....

[Kent Broadhead]

But were there flames coming from the engine? :)

[Jason H]

Aircraft was VH-OJF, the one that it meant to be retiring very soon. VH-OJN was flown in as a replacement

[BradR]

The media are having a bit of a feeding frenzy with Qantas at the moment. Even the mildest delay is being portrayed as a "safety threat".

This is not a first however. Most will remember the multiple attacks made on Ansett in its final years for incredibly minor issues.

The media cannot be bothered explaining the safety first mentality that pervades aviation so then assumes that any minor issue is a major safety threat when in relaity it is the airlines enforcing their and the regulator's policies that any minor item deserves immediate attention even if it causes delays etc.

The media is a bit each-way here. What would they say if airlines ignored minor safety defects and continued on.

[Ash W]

Brad one of the reasons the media is having a feeding frenzy is simply because the maintenance union is in dispute with Qantas again. Wonder who is feeding them their 'stories'? It is funny how when there is a union dispute that all these issues come to the surface.

Disclaimer. Clearly this issue and the A380 issue last week would have made it anyway, but not the multitude of day to day issues mentioned in the article quoted.

[Paul McFarlane]

What would they say if airlines ignored minor safety defects and continued on.

With regards to the mainstream 'tabloid' media - Whatever it took to sell more copies or attract more viewers. :(

[Anthony T]

Didn't CASA have an issue with another Australian airline at Easter about 9 years back?

Those issues, I seem to remember didn't work out too well for the airline concerned. :(

The media last week were reporting that CASA are having a bit of a closer look at QANTAS, but have not yet issued a show cause order regarding B747-400 ops.

[Ray P.]

Brad one of the reasons the media is having a feeding frenzy is simply because the maintenance union is in dispute with Qantas again. Wonder who is feeding them their 'stories'? It is funny how when there is a union dispute that all these issues come to the surface. ...

Exactly correct, nothing like promoting the cause by scaring the travelling public. The media know this of course, but it's like an alcoholic being offered a drink. I wonder how many delays or aircraft going tech the other Australian-based carriers have suffered that didn't get reported this last week or so. :rolleyes:

[Philip Argy]

Unions need to be careful not to put Qantas profitability in jeopardy to further their cause. They may have legitimate grievances but the travelling public are easily scared off and Qantas staff will suffer before Qantas shareholders.

[Maikha Ly]

Irrespective of what the media reports about Qantas, and the stupid people I'm surrounded by who believe in that tripe...



.... I'm still flying with Qantas :)

[Paul McFarlane]

...the stupid people I'm surrounded by who believe in that tripe...

Whilst I cannot comment on the stupidity of those around you, generally the people that believe these stories are not stupid, they just don't know any better. Having had no experience in aviation (other than getting from A to B and ordering the fish) these people take what they see in the papers and on the telly at face value and don't comprehend the safety culture that exists in aviation.

[Ryan K.]

didn't expect this thread turned into an aviation safety discussion.

All I wanna comment on was the reliability on their aircrafts. If I am an ordinary person wanting to travel to Europe or US, would I still choose an airline that has a string of incidents recently or my other alternatives. Qantas is already getting hard done by their competitors and these kind of news would just be the last thing they want.

What really spark me in starting this thread was the loading just over 50% on the 380 when the tyre burst in SYD. This is surely not a good sign for an airline for inbound traffic just before the Easter holiday season.

[Paul McFarlane]

All I wanna comment on was the reliability on their aircrafts. If I am an ordinary person wanting to travel to Europe or US, would I still choose an airline that has a string of incidents recently or my other alternatives.

This is the problem with the media reporting every time Qantas drops a salad fork on the floor; the everyday client believes that Qantas is having a 'string of incidents' when in fact they have had maybe two significant events of late that were genuinely newsworthy and the rest are relatively normal tech issues that the 'alternatives' also face day to day (just without the publicity)!

I don't believe that Qantas has any serious reliability problems in their fleet, (my opinion only..) but the media can certainly make it look that way..

Cheers

[Jason H]

I heard that the replacement aircraft, VH-OJN, blew 5 tires on landing in BKK. Can anyone confirm this?

[James K]

didn't expect this thread turned into an aviation safety discussion.

All I wanna comment on was the reliability on their aircrafts. If I am an ordinary person wanting to travel to Europe or US, would I still choose an airline that has a string of incidents recently or my other alternatives. Qantas is already getting hard done by their competitors and these kind of news would just be the last thing they want.

What really spark me in starting this thread was the loading just over 50% on the 380 when the tyre burst in SYD. This is surely not a good sign for an airline for inbound traffic just before the Easter holiday season.

Each flight cannot be full 100% of the time. You need to look at the wider picture. These are seasonal loads and the northbound loads at the moment are more than healthy.

[Andrew M]

But all this publicity gets people talking and questioning Qantas....

Being the aviation expert amongst family/friends :rolleyes:

I have lost track of how many people have asked me something along the lines of

"What is happening with Qantas at the moment?"
"Did you hear about the incident with Qantas?"

I shut them down but they still can't believe that Qantas is "having all these problems"

:(

[Maikha Ly]

Whilst I cannot comment on the stupidity of those around you, generally the people that believe these stories are not stupid, they just don't know any better. Having had no experience in aviation (other than getting from A to B and ordering the fish) these people take what they see in the papers and on the telly at face value and don't comprehend the safety culture that exists in aviation.Paul, you make many valid points and I do agree with you.

Sadly, on a social, academic and professional level, I'm surrounded by insipid Generation Y-ers who take the media for gospel more so than face value (And considering I work in the field of Media and Broadcasting... this does surprise me), and one individual who recently told me she decided on booking a holiday with VB now because of, quote, "what I saw about the Qantas fire with the A380 last week" (Relating to the tyre blow-out incident).

The rest of people I know, like Andrew M has stated above, hear about all these string of incidents and make judgments on Qantas to the same level as they do towards Tiger Airways depicted on that Ch7 program, without questioning the facets or idiosyncrasies of the media that's doing the portraying. I don't expect anyone to have any inclination to understand or appreciate the safety standards in aviation, or any other form of transport for the matter, just to think for themselves and not let the paper/telly do it for them.

My judgments on them have nothing to do with my interests and appreciation for aviation. Moreso the observations I've made, the objections I have towards elements of my own generation, and the cynicisms I have personally at the way the media conducts itself.

[Maikha Ly]

Also.....

I've been trying to find this for a while, and had it sent to me tonight. Write your own 'Terrifying Flight' news item!
http://radans.net/jens/planestory.html

[Robert Zweck]

Once you have waded through all the rubbish and tripe, you find Qantas is still the world's safest airline.

[Adam G]

Double post

[Adam G]

Once you have waded through all the rubbish and tripe, you find Qantas is still the world's safest airline.

Have you got a source for that comment? Not being picky but I'm not sure if that would still be accurate?

[Anthony R Haynes]

Why would you even think of saying that Adam. Qantas and all other Australian airlines are right up there for safety. Are you trying to say that other airlines around the world dont have issues or maintenance problems. Its just a media beatup, obviously there isnt much noteworthy news items at the moment and Qantas are taking the wrap for it.

[Kent Broadhead]

Its just a media beatup, obviously there isnt much noteworthy news items at the moment and Qantas are taking the wrap for it. I'm sure that the union hasn't got anything to do with the minor incidents getting out either. But it's a little surprising that it's only QF taking the rap atm, given DJ is getting into negotiations too....

[Lee G]

Here's a question that's not been asked yet ... is there another airline in the world which is subjected to more media scrutiny on a permanent basis than Qantas?

[Laurent Sanhard]

I think what we have to remember here is that most of what has been happening with Qantas has been incidents , not accidents , I think the media are just a bit trigger happy having a slow news week !!

When accidents start happening then that's a different story !!:cool:

[Anthony T]

I think DJ throw a better party than QF. :p

Best not to bite the hand that feeds you.

[Ash W]

I'm sure that the union hasn't got anything to do with the minor incidents getting out either. But it's a little surprising that it's only QF taking the rap atm, given DJ is getting into negotiations too....

I think if you look back through history you will see the moment Qantas is in negotiations with the maintenance unions that every little glitch with their aircraft tends to make it into the mainstream media, along with a comment from said union leaders about the importance of keeping maintenance on-shore etc. I certainly don't think it is a co-incidence.

A good case in point is the issue with the cracked 737 windsheild a few weeks back, followed by the cracked windsheild that delayed a 747 flights a bit later.

[Kent Broadhead]

I agree Ash - I was being tongue in cheek re. the unions......

[Adam G]

Why would you even think of saying that Adam. Qantas and all other Australian airlines are right up there for safety.

Actually it was quite a legitimate question - I'm not denying Australian airlines are very safe but are any of them the safest?

Australian airlines by world standards have relatively small fleet sizes and internationally at least fly relatively long sectors (especially QF throughout their history) which decreases the risk.

Take an airline like Southwest for example - a fleet size of 540ish, a lot of very short sectors and in almost 40 years of operation still hasn't had a fatal event occur.

If you're measuring by no fatal accidents (which is a whole lot more accurate then day to day maintenance issues) there is quite a comprehensive list here: http://www.airsafe.com/events/nofatals.htm#uscan

[Ash W]

Adam how do you meassure safety? To me there is no one metric, so it cannot actually be meassured, which leaves it unfortunatly to perception.

[D Chan]

Adam how do you meassure safety? To me there is no one metric, so it cannot actually be meassured, which leaves it unfortunatly to perception.

whilst there is no one metric, there are many indicators (hundreds) that can be used (the public won't know of course). I actually think it is theoretically possible to measure it (extremely complex) but it's not economically feasible, extremely time consuming and has to be done by an independent body that has access to internal safety information within airlines (to which some airlines won't agree to). So whilst it can be done it will never be done.

For a start if an airline adopts industry best practices in safety - this alone will make a pretty big difference. Pitch this against cash-strapped airlines from 3rd-world countries and it becomes fairly obvious.

Yet all of these will count for nothing if a flock of birds causes a fatal birdstrike event (knocking out all engines) or there was a mid-air collision such as the DHL 757 and the Tu154 a few years ago in Europe. It can happen to any airline, and completely outside their control, no matter how 'safe' they are.


In terms of the recent media scrutiny it has been amazing to see the amount of rubbish-reporting. In particular, QF has been singled out on some of the common issues that affect airlines operating around the world day in day. To keep things short if another airline in Australia have similar issues to QF's and it goes unnoticed you really have to question why QF has been singled out.

For example, CASA's flight safety publication includes a list of SDRs (Service Difficulty Reports) http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib91211/mar-apr10.pdf, and the ATSB publishes weekly summaries: http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/weekly-summary/2010.aspx

There are plenty of issues that go unreported, and unoticed, day in day out. Take a look yourself

Obviously either the media hasn't done their homework or they are all 'cashing in' to the new found obsession (intended to give them more 'clicks' or 'hits' to their stories). To the uninformed this creates an exceptionally bad (and perhaps unwarranted) perception.


And then there's the issue with the Union's claims about poor overseas maintenance standards - the very same used by global carriers like Lufthansa or Singapore Airlines. We never hear the unions warning the public not to fly these airlines, and since they don't, isn't it fairly obvious why they make a huge fuss about these critical safety issues?

[Paul McFarlane]

Take an airline like Southwest for example - a fleet size of 540ish, a lot of very short sectors and in almost 40 years of operation still hasn't had a fatal event occur.

What about Southwest flight 1248 on December 8, 2005 that killed the boy on the ground. Granted it wasn't a maintenance issue, but it was still an unfortunate fatal accident.

[Andrew P]

MESSAGE ON EASTER DISRUPTIONS FROM QANTAS CEO ALAN JOYCE (http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/easter-disruptions-2010-message.pdf)

Joyce has issued pretty strong comments, here are just some

Qantas has recently experienced major disruptions to our international network. You may have been affected directly or indirectly by the disruptions, or seen the media coverage and speculation about Qantas safety and maintenance standards.

As one of our valued customers, I wanted to be in touch with you directly about this. I want to apologise if you were affected personally by the disruptions. I know that Easter is a special opportunity to unite family and friends, and I sincerely regret any frustration and anxiety you may have experienced due to the delays.

.....

The first thing to say about each of the four incidents is that safety was never an issue. These were mechanical issues: at no time did they represent safety threats....


good to see QF are at least addressing the press

[Sarah C]

It was a great letter from Joyce. He was honest and provided facts that everyone could understand.

[Andrew M]

Great PR !

10/10 for Qantas for doing that!

0/10 for the media publishing it all in the first place.

Funny how the United Airlines near miss a few weeks back only got a small mention.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/united-airlines-flight-889-in-mid-air-near-miss-with-aeronca-11ac-over-san-francisco/story-e6frfq80-1225847786869

THE US National Transportation Safety Board has launched an investigation into how a commercial jet came within 300 feet of a mid-air collision with small airplane over San Francisco on Saturday.

[Ryan K.]

About time for Mr. Joyce to come out and say something. Him being such an out spoken person, it was only a matter of time to see him addressing the customers about the reliability issues.

The message was well address and clarifies concerns for the travelling public. Only comment is maybe he should advertise more on the schedule of their 747 fleet upgrade to 380.

At the end of the day, you can't dodge these kind of media reports, you can only steer how the public thinks about your airline. Final words is this guy really know how to do business.

[Sarah C]

About time for Mr. Joyce to come out and say something. Him being such an out spoken person, it was only a matter of time to see him addressing the customers about the reliability issues.



What reliability issues? Two engines had surges which are rare occurances, it is just unlucky they happened so close together.

If a CEO issued this letter for everything that goes wrong everyday to thier airline, they would be doing it daily. Aircraft are machines - things go wrong, airlines do all they can to prevent them, sometimes things just happen.

Joyce isn't outspoken - he is honest when people ask him questions. I think he handled it really well - responding to every delay is over the top and only feeds the frenzy.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

Only comment is maybe he should advertise more on the schedule of their 747 fleet upgrade to 380.

They did that just recently, in great detail, at their half-yearly results media briefing, and this was widely reported. But exact dates can't be given, especially with Airbus's continually lagging A380 delivery schedule.

From my experience, Alan Joyce is fundamentally an honest and decent guy who is battling that ever present balance between customers, employees and shareholders, whilst at the same time trying to bring a 'jobs for life' culture kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

[Michael Cleary]

Strange how (and what) the press report isnt it!!

It seems that V Australia suffered a delay of about 18 hours at Phuket last Friday (09/04) due to an engine problem at startup.

According to a colleague from work who was on it, (VA20, 18:40 from Phuket to Melbourne), all went well until engine start, at which time one of the engines made some unusual noises. Back to the gate and to hotels for the night, finally arriving in Melbourne at around 23:30 on Saturday night - rather naturally too late to go on to Sydney, so they paid for a short stay in one of the Hotels.

And not a word in the press from what I (didnt) see.

[Andrew M]

Nope - Didn't see that in the press.

Nor the numerous delays/cancellations of SYD-LAX flights on UA

[Sarah C]

If there were any union strikes, they would be ;)