YSSY Atis

[Adam P.]

Current Sydney ATIS:
ATIS YSSY S 170327

APCH: EXP ILS APCH THEN INDEPENDENT VISUAL APCH WHEN VISUAL
RWY: 16L AND R FOR ARRS AND DEPS
SFC COND: DAMP
OPR INFO: PARL RWY OPS IN PROG.
INDEPENDENT DEPARTURES IN PROG
+ WIND: 180/6
VIS: GT 10KM
WX: SH IN AREA.
CB AND LIGHTNING OBS TO THE SOUTH. WATERSPOUT OBS TO
EAST
CLD: FEW 020, FEW 030
+ TMP: 17
QNH: 1017


Aww cool!! :eek:

[Nigel C]

That IS cool! Seen a few during my time at the airport, mostly to the south near Kurnell.:cool:

[Andrew McLaughlin]

mostly to the south near Kurnell.:cool:

Did you say "far-Kurnell" when you saw them?





Oh come on, you were all thinking it too!

[Stephen Brown]

I'll show you a water spout......

[Raymond Rowe]

Better find the tweesers first.

[Ryan N]

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/water-issues/waterspouts-whip-past-sydney-20100517-v8ci.html

[Stephen Brown]

More pics

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/glance/1053529/waterspouts-put-on-a-show-off-bondi

[Philip Argy]

Can't say I've noticed "DELIVERY" giving out clearances before - who is doing that?

[Paul Hunter]

Used to be called "Clearance Delivery". Now just shortened to "delivery" to fall in with ICAO procedures.

Still done from the tower on 133.8. This phrase is put on the ATIS at the moment due to an error in the latest ERSA and various charts that shows 126.5 as the delivery frequency. 126.5 is the Ground West frequency. Notams have been issued and will be corrected in the next issue of ERSA and charts.

Regards.

[Nigel C]

So you're hoping the pilots actually read the Notams correctly for the next 3 months?;)


Now before any of you pilots get all defensive about the above tongue in cheek statement, we've had numerous occasions where the pilots ask if the full length of 16R is avbl with reference to Notams that start at 2300 at night...it seems they can't be bothered working out when the Notam is actually valid and instead assume (incorrectly) that it's started in the middle of the day

[Stephen Brown]

Yeah, good luck with that Nigel.....

[Paul Hunter]

Which is why it will probably appear on the ATIS for the next while.:)

Regards.

[Nigel C]

For the full 3 months perhaps?;)

[Owen H]

Unfortunately I think there is a bit of "notam fatigue" coming into play. There are so many notams for Sydney it takes an eternity to go through them, and most of them do not affect you. It is no surprise really when the odd error is made. If its critical, it should be on the ATIS anyway.

The number if times I've seen a notam declaring 25/07 closed and the ILS off the air only to find out it is in use during the works was silly.

Boy who cried wolf syndrome coming in I think!

[Mick F]

Maybe if you safety officers didn't put "local" times on the NOTAM's, then you wouldn't have that problem Nigel, ;).

Mick

[Nigel C]

I agree there is a glut of Notams (25 at the moment), although the numbers these days are a lot less than when the A380 upgrade works were in full swing!;)

The problem lies in that there is a responsibility to notify the industry of changes that may or will affect 'normal' operations, but the day an 'important' bit of info is left out and it's found to directly affect the safe operation of an aircraft, then we'll end up in court having to explain why it was omitted.

Looking at the current breakdown of the Notams published, a good number of the Notams are for night curfew works only (8 of the 25), so they don't affect RPT. Another 8 Notams have been raised by Airservices Australia. That leaves 9 that concern obstacles (and Sydney is very close to the city compared to most ports, so cranes will feature here more than most or all of the other cities), spotlights, bats, and lighting issues.

[Nigel C]

Maybe if you safety officers didn't put "local" times on the NOTAM's, then you wouldn't have that problem Nigel, ;).

Mick

We don't. All Notam times are in UTC.:p

[Philip Argy]

Do they get NOTAWs? :D

[Nigel C]

This country is a democratic society. There are more male than female pilots, so the majority rules.:p

[Philip Argy]

ATIS now reads:


AS ADVISED BY NOTAM SYDNEY DELIVERY FREQ IS 133.8

:)

[Jason H]

I noticed this morning that the ATIS said "wind 240/12 knots......wind at 500ft, 230/18 knots".

Why is it required to put this in when the wind is only changing 5 or so knots?

[Nigel C]

Only speculating, but perhaps if winds higher up were much stronger or from a different direction, then aircraft on approach would want to know that from 500' down the winds didn't vary much as that's when they'd most likely want the aircraft to be at its most stable in the approach?

Perhaps the forecast said something different?

Happy to be corrected by those in the know.

[Philip Argy]

Assuming a runway 25 landing, 230/18 has a higher cross wind component than 240/12 and the difference is probably material, but I'll defer to the drivers to tell us if there's more to it than that.

[Owen H]

I flew in this morning and they were using the 16's.

It also was stronger than that previously, at about 20kts, so there may have been earlier reports and they were continuing the trend.

Perhaps more importantly, the change involves tailwind components. It is quite a surprise to be making an approach and discover a tailwind at 500ft if you're not expecting it, particularly if reasonably strong. If they were using runway 25 the information would likely not have been present.

[Jason H]

It was for runway 16R/L ops.
It still seems as though that wind is normal though, I mean, wind increases in strength with altitude anyway, is that wind on the ATIS really THAT different from the norm that it required a mention?

[Owen H]

What did the ATIS before that say?

When I was there from memory it was in the vicinity of 22kts.

It is quite possible it was there for trend, allowing pilots in the vicinity to know what the wind was doing at the time.

Being told the 500ft wind is a great idea if there is tailwind around. With the winds I heard, the 500ft tailwind was calculated to be about 7kts, which is not inconsiderable. If on approach there was a 7kt tail at 500ft most crew would report it to ATC... and hence it appears on the ATIS. Although at most airports that would have been enough for the duty runway to be changed... but alas not Sydney.

I think this is a great demonstration of operationally relevant information being provided, particularly at an aerodrome that doesn't conform to the regular standards for runway selection.

[Jason H]

Not sure what the ATIS was before that, but thanks for the clarification

[Nigel C]

... particularly at an aerodrome that doesn't conform to the regular standards for runway selection.

Ah yes, but it does conform "to the regular standards for noise sharing"...:rolleyes:

[Owen H]

Well, to Sydney's definition of them anyway ;).

Nowhere else accepts the downwinds and crosswinds that Sydney does for noise as they're outside the ICAO limits ;).

[Philip Argy]

http://www.airservices.gov.au/brief/html.asp?/cgi-bin/avreq?met=YSSY is generating this error at present:

Error 403: Forbidden
The query has failed, if problem continues please phone the Airservices Australia help desk on 1800 801960

Anyone know why?

[Jason H]

yeah NAIPS is down at the moment too.....I need it too! :mad:

[Chris W]

NAIPS and the Online Briefing service were down from about 1320 until 1830, reason unknown. The poor guys at the Brisbane Briefing office would have earnt their wage and then some this afternoon.

[Philip Argy]

Surprised to see 34 still in use with Xwinds gusting to 26 knots (and I'd estimate higher than that myself) - what's the usual limit?


ATIS ATIS YSSY B 042141
APCH: EXP INDEPENDENT VISUAL APCH
RWY: 34L AND R FOR ARRS AND DEPS
OPR INFO: PARL RWY OPS IN PROG.
INDEPENDENT DEPARTURES IN PROG
+ WIND: 300/25-40, XW MN 17, MAX 26

[David C]

The X wind limits vary from aircraft to aircraft and also depends on other factors as runway surface conditions . I read that the 787 will have a typical X wind limit of around 25Kts , a little on the low side I would have thought .

Dave C

[James Smith]

Philip, with the wind at a steady 300 degrees the crosswind on the 34 runways is still less than runway 25, so if a type of aircraft is not able to land in that crosswind, due to exceeding limits, would need to go around and try again, or as a last resort divert. Will make for some great photos though today with all the fathers trying out their new cameras and/or lenses.

[Chris W]

They usually start looking at the option of 25/07 only with a crosswind between 20-25 knots. Of course it depends on the time of day and the traffic loads though.

[Philip Argy]

ATIS right now has this:

RWY 34R GP AND DME NOT AVBL, DO NOT USE - FALSE INDICATIONS POSSIBLE

The unavailability of GP and DME for 34R has been notified for weeks, but this is the first time I've seen the "DO NOT USE" advisory with the "FALSE INDICATIONS" warning. What exactly is the problem with 34R GP and DME and why is it taking so long to fix??

[JamesW]

Hi Phillip,

AsA are currently replacing the whole ILS system for 16L/34R and 34R has been chosen to be the one which is replaced first. Here is the AIP AIC of the replacement: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/sup/a10-h19.pdf. It says the new ILS should be commisioned around the 17DEC10. You may of also heard ADA01('Auscar 1') flying around Sydney, and this is the navaid testing aircraft, and also helps with the alignment of the System. The 16L ILS system will be next, and therefore you will see that in the ATIS when the 16's are active. Also the use of LOC Y is due to the approach using DME referencing to the SY DME and not the LOC DME. Hope this answers your questions :)

[Phil M]

Philip,

The difference yesterday morning is that the ILS was actually turned on to allow Auscal to do the commissioning flights. Once the ILS was on, but NAVBL to be used, the "do not use, false indications possible" phrase needs to be added to the CATIS.

[Mick F]

James, the callsign is "Auscal 1", not "Auscar 1".

Cheers

Mick

[Grahame Hutchison]

I saw the calibration aircraft working 34R while I was out there this morning.

[Philip Argy]

OK - I see that 16L will take nine weeks from 10 January which takes us to the Ides of March: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/sup/a10-h20.pdf

For such an important nav aid, nine weeks does seem to be a very long time to me - what is actually involved and why does it take so long?

[Nigel C]

They have to run new fibre optic cables, often replace the computer room (red and white 'KFC' building near the facility), demolish the old one, survey and lay the foundation for the new ILS facility, re-grade the earth mat in front of the Glidepath if required, erect the new ILS system (localiser or glidepath including monitor aerial and DME), calibrate it, commission it.

Then you have to factor in the weather; poor weather often means work can't be carried out. Cranes are needed for some of the demolition/installation, so curfew works may need to be undertaken.
Etc, etc, etc

I'm sure there's more to it, but that's a pretty basic rundown.

[Philip Argy]

Maybe if you had someone to help you it could be done more quickly, Nigel!

[Nigel C]

These things take time, and I'm sure the Airservices Aust. project team are getting it done as quickly as they can.

[Nigel C]

*BUMP*

If you get the chance to listen to the ATIS, do it. ATC has kindly added a little Australia Day touch...

ATIS YSSY C 252148
APCH: EXP ILS APCH THEN INDEPENDENT VISUAL APCH WHEN VISUAL
RWY: 34L AND R FOR ARRS AND DEPS
OPR INFO: PARL RWY OPS IN PROG.
INDEPENDENT DEPARTURES IN PROG.
AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE OI OI OI + WIND: VRB/6KTS
+ VIS: 8 KM IN HZ
CLD: FEW020
TMP: 27
QNH: 1011


Nice one guys.:D

[JamesW]

Also they are using the old voice :D Reminds me of the US ATIS's(sounds like Mic Sam??).

[Nigel C]

Apparently they can't get the new voice to say 'Oi' right, so on Australia Day, they had to import the old foreign voice.:)

[Grahame Hutchison]

Flying out at Bankstown this morning and the ATIS (and ground controller) had a beautiful Russian accent for Australia Day.

[Philip Argy]

ATIS this morning is showing 16L and 16R anemometers as unserviceable - is this programmed maintenance or have they just got wind?

[Philip Argy]

Someone at YSSY BM needs to look out the window this morning!

[Mick B]

CAVOK simply means no cloud below 5000ft and visibility of 10km or more, with no significant weather present. So yes, it is CAVOK today.
And the METAR confirms this:

YSSY 090100Z 32010KT CAVOK 27/15 Q1015 RMK 1CU080 3AC100 7AC170 NOSIG

[Philip Argy]

Thanks, Mick - I've learned something! :o

[Philip Argy]

Noted this unusual inclusion in ATIS Charlie this morning:

SIGWX: SIGMET MIKE ECHO 2 5 CURRENT. SEV ICE FCST ABV FL120

Does that suggest hail or just a very cold icing-up environment?

[Mick F]

Just that there's severe airframe icing above FL120. It could be pretty normal temperatures environment wise, but you've got the right moisture conditions sitting at the right levels to cause this severe icing.

Mick

[Sarah C]

YSSY METAR Weather: YSSY 120330Z 10012KT 9999 SCT030 SCT220 25/16 Q1013 RMK LIGHTNING DETECTED 26NM TO SW AND 25NM TO W MOVING ENE AT 10 KNOTS TEMPO 0400/0630 3000 TSRA SCT010 SCT040CB

Lightning on its way. Shaping up as an interesting afternoon ahead.

[Philip Argy]

Haven't noticed that in ATIS before today - is it new or am I just that unobservant?

[Jayden Laing]

It's a new feature to the airport Phillip. Basically it's a stop bar procedure to prevent runway incursions from happening. This link will explain more along with some of Nigel's expertise ;-)

http://www.sydneyairport.com.au/corporate/service-directory/~/media/Files/Corporate/Service%20Directory/Airside%20Driving%20Centre/SACL_StopBarsFS.pdf

[Philip Argy]

I remember Nigel telling me about it at our Spotters Weekend dinner, but I hadn't realised that implementation had been delayed.

[Bernie P]

We saw it in operation, albeit it on the screens, when we were up in the tower!!

[Philip Argy]

From this morning's TAF:


LIGHT TO MODERATE NORTHWEST WINDS, FRESHENING AND TENDING SOUTHWEST MID AFTERNOON AND THEN (BAM!) FRESH AND GUSTY SOUTHERLY THURSDAY EVENING.

:)

[Philip Argy]

Can't login to NAIPS today and the old open access ATIS has been taken down. Not impressed. :(

[Grahame Hutchison]

New version of NAIPS released yesterday by Airservices Australia, even some of the App developers are scrambling to make changes to their connectivity.

[SteveW]

Can't login to NAIPS today and the old open access ATIS has been taken down. Not impressed. :(

That's annoying that they have removed public access.

Anyone know if it will ever be restored?

[Philip Argy]

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/NIS-FAQ.pdf

No logic to withdrawal of quick-access free ATIS. Under NAIPS you have to login, select the special briefing screen, enter YSSY with ATIS ticked and NOTAM etc unticked, click Submit, wait another 8 seconds, and get a personalised version of what previously took a few seconds to get with a YSSY-coded URL!

Whose mad idea was this? :mad:

[Philip Argy]

This evening we are seeing this:

DO NOT PASS THROUGH THE ASSIGNED RWY CENTRE LINE

What does that mean exactly?

[Fred C]

I believe that means when you are turning onto finals they do not want you to overshoot the extended centreline of the runway. You may drift too close to the other parallel runway centreline.

ie If 16L and 16R are the arrival runways. If the aircraft turning final on 16R drifts too much past the centreline he may encroach the extended centreline of 16L.

If they both do it at the same time then its not good at all.:eek:

I hope I have explained that correctly. The piloty types may correct me.:D

[Hugh Jarse]

Philip, they are telling us the obvious. Typically, aircraft can go through the centreline if: a) too fast a speed for the autopilot to capture; b) a poor (too large an intercept heading) assigned by ATC or a combination of a and b; or c) a disruption of the localiser signal, caused by an aircraft taking off and flying through the beam as an aircraft is about to join the localiser. This can cause problems with the autoflight system, resulting in an overshoot.

I'm sure there are more reasons. These are a few that I've encountered in over 20 years of operating into Sydney.

Hope this helps.

[Grahame Hutchison]

I have had similar instructions from the Tower when doing an approach into Bankstown when there is a good cross wind blowing. ATC are just reminding you to allow for the crosswind turning onto final, to maintain separation from other aircraft on a parallel approach.

[Philip Argy]

I just hadn't seen that in ATIS before and it didn't seem like a standard expression.

I know PRM is normally only used with bad visibility but I wonder when there's strong cross winds if it should be used if there's a horizontal separation concern?

[Rory D.]

The comment on the ATIS is essentially repeating what is also written in ERSA and AIP. There's only a little over 1000m between the two centrelines, it only takes seconds for two aircraft to get very very close if they go through.

[Brad E]

CASA/ASA is always striving to improve saftey.. this may be a reactive response to some recent incidents in Australia or just a nice saftey reminder.

The changes coincide with this recent bulletin that was put out.
Nothing new, all stuff we're clear about but nice to get a reminder.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/20-November-2012-Independent-Visual-Approaches.pdf

If you read the CASA 'flight safety australia' magazine you'll see they have atleast one issue each year that reminds you to have enough fuel. Simple enough, right? :)