Before the third runway and IT expansion

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Seeing Grahame's photos in response to UTA Caravelles and retro-schemes prompted me to search my photos from around that time.

These photos were taken from the southern viewing area of the International Terminal before expansion. Date is April 1990 (Anzac Day to be exact).

As you can see you got great views of Botany Bay, Kurnell etc.

The thing I noticed most is the complete absence of runway/taxiway marker boards to indicate taxiway and runway intersections.
Nigel C may be able to indicate when these actually started to be installed and interestingly a/c would have needed ATC/Ground instructions to get around (as well as their airport maps). Presume you were around in those days Nigel, if not, someone else may have the info.

[Dan Collins]

Excellent photos! I love looking back at these 'retro' shots.

Peter, your photos are taken in the same month my family and I landed in Australia immigrating from the UK. We flew aboard a Cathay Pacific B747-400. Can't remember the exact date off the top of my head, but it would've been early April 1990 :)

Cheers,

Dan

[Geoff W]

Good stuff Peter.

Thanks,

Kind regards,

Geoff

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Nice coincidence Dan. Cathay only had a few 400's in 1990 and one of their first 'in service' was in fact Air NZ ZK-NBS seen at Singapore in March 1990.

[Nigel C]

Nigel C may be able to indicate when these actually started to be installed and interestingly a/c would have needed ATC/Ground instructions to get around (as well as their airport maps). Presume you were around in those days Nigel, if not, someone else may have the info.

With all due respect Peter, I was still in high school back then. When I started here in 1999 MAG signs were all over the place.
Airport lighting guys are in tonight...I'll see what they can tell me.

Cheers

[James Smith]

Peter, on the airbands instructions were given by ATC to international aircraft something along the lines of, "Speedbird 9 cross runway 25, then take the first taxiway left and next right for bay 7." A lot different now with more taxiways especially on the western side and all the lego block signs.

[Nigel C]

The plot thickens Peter...I've asked some of our old timers, and they can't remember exactly when the MAGs came about. There is a thought that they might have been introduced around the time of the third runway being built, but no-one on tonight can be sure.

I have one ace up the sleeve, but I probably won't get an answer til after I get back to work tomorrow night.

Cheers

Update: one of the lighting guys had a trawl through some archived stuff...it appears the first illuminated information signs were installed around early-mid '95, although apparently there are still some illuminated mandatory signs on the field from as far back as '87. My 'ace up the sleeve' will have more definate info.

[Mark Fahey]

And it looks like the VOR has moved since the photos were taken. In the photos it seems west of RWY16 and now the VOR is on the eastern side on the runway.

Cheers,
Mark

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Oops, sorry Nigel didn't realise I was going back 20 years, my apologies.
I'm the ancient one!!

Info is great but what does MAG stand for?

[Paul Hunter]

Peter,

Movement Area Guidance (MAG).

I seem to remember alot being installed from 1996 when I started in Sydney Tower.

Regards.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Thanks Paul

Long time ago so don't recall them suddenly appearing.

You don't realise how many of them there are until you see news coverage taken at SYD of a/c taxiing/departing. The press get reasonable access sometimes so they are close up.

Of course now they are always in my photos!

[Andrew P]

the photo is a CX 747-300 series though

[Nigel C]

Peter, apparently there were lit 'distance to run' signs along Rwy 16 in the 80's, but the current type of MAG you see dotted all over the field started appearing in around 1993, with Stage 1 of that project completed and drawings updated in June 1995.

With the approach of the A380 they repalced many signs with newer versions and introduced TORA (Take Off Run Available) signs to many taxiway/runway intersections, and currently there's a program to change the background lighting in MAGs from fluorescent to LED. The LED fitted signs are easy to spot...the MAG works, and it's bright!

Cheers

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Thanks Nigel

You learn something all the time.

The reason I brought it up was in the photo of the Cathay 743 the whole area looks so 'clean'.

Next question is the flashing amber lights that are visible on some "MAG'S" or signs; are these to warn pilots of runways (e.g. taxiing north on Bravo approaching 07/25)?

[Nigel C]

They're Runway Guard Lights. They come in 2 forms, inset and elevated. Inset ones stretch right across the holding point, and the elevated are the flashing lights on either side of the taxiway at the holding point.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Thanks again Nige

I was on the right track though.

School over for today (back to V8's at Bathurst):D

[James R]

The CO 742 pic would be fairly rare wouldn't it?

I was under the impression that CO didn't operate too many 747s at all let alone fly them to Sydney. Have fond memories of the DC-10s though.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Yes James, not many 741/742's operated by Continental.
Initially all the 747's were bought by Peoples Express with 4 from Qantas and 4 from Alitalia. PE folded and Continental took over their fleet of 737's and 747's. I saw lot's of the 737's at Newark.

The one pictured is an ex Qantas machine and the initial reg range used was N603PE to N610PE (AFIK). A few if not all were re-registered into the Continental registration method.

They were fairly common as I also saw them in Melbourne and Brisbane in the early 90's.

[Bernie P]

Since we're talking about the 3rd Runway and so on, I thought I would dig out my CD called "From the Skies (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/environment/heritage/fromtheskies/)" Aerial Photography 1943... Amazing what one can find!

Kingsford Smith Aerodrome (or LARGE version HERE (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/5080896668_de35190ab9_o.jpg))
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/5080896668_5e674ba344_z.jpg
I would be curious to know, what are the runways on the pic, and are these still the current sites?? Any ideas??

Bankstown Airport (or LARGE version HERE (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/5080896850_fc45529d1f_o.jpg))
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/5080896850_ca74140c8d_z.jpg

[Michael Cleary]

I would be curious to know, what are the runways on the pic, and are these still the current sites?? Any ideas??.

There is a diagram at the link below that shows the old runway layout in 1950 at the time of the Train vs DC3 meeting. Of the 3 runways shown there, 16/34 is the only alignment still in use - though somewhat changed in the 60 years that have passed.

http://www.spiritsofansett.com/history/Niven/trains.htm

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Searching the garage for more negatives/prints I found the negatives for the photos I posted.
As it turns out these were taken whilst work had started on the terminal expansion so I have added a few more to show the 'work in progress' plus 2 new a/c.
Sorry for quality as these are scanned negatives.

[Nigel C]

A bit of useless trivia for you Peter...

The original project site office for the third runway still exists on the airport...it's the old Airport Operations building, which is located just before General Holmes Drive Tunnel northbound; look for the white building on stilts.
Since airport ops moved out, it has been used as the project office for the RESA upgrade, and is now home to the runway re-sheet guys.
If you google map this building, you'll see it still has "Building a Better Airport" painted on the roof, a remnant from the third runway construction days.

[Noel White]

Thanks Peter, those photos brings back memories especially the first one of the foundations of Pier C.

Can't remember how far the concrete piers were driven down (well over 100 feet), but to support the ITB extensions they had to rest on bed rock. Where the ITB now stands was originally the Cooks River bed and flowed across the paddock into Botany Bay near where the General Holmes Drive and Foreshore Road join. The whole ITB stands on stilts because of the mud and silt that the river left behind when the river was diverted in 1948.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Thanks Nigel

I know the building well as I used to sneak down the side of it to check out a/c parked at the terminal.

Behind the BA 747 near the old control tower you can see the cars parked at Gate 20 (the original main spotting area - now staff car park). Can even make out Jimmy's Ice cream van where we would buy coffee, hot dogs, etc.
Also amongst the trees is a house that I think was owned/leased by the Coast Guard with a resident couple (forgot the guy's name who passed away some years ago).
Lots of memories.

I didn't realise that work started that long ago.

[Nigel C]

The staff car park is now an empty lot, possibly to be used for staging the re-sheet equipment. I believe there may be plans to turn it into aircraft stand-off parking too.

The old house in the middle was demolished once the tennants passed away. Apparently they had a long lease that they'd never see the end of (99 years or something similar). He used to have chooks running around the yard whe I first started; not sure what happened to them once he departed.

[Kent Broadhead]

If anyone's interested at playing around (as it's not entirely user friendly, and seems to work best with Explorer), you can do an overlay of the 1943 aerial photos and modern hi-res pics at http://imagery.maps.nsw.gov.au/

The river flowed across where the ITB now is, and it appears that most of 07/25 is built on the original river bed. I though the house in question was part of the pre-1948 structures, but it appears to be more recent.

[Matthew Chisholm]

Some great old photos here!

[Sarah C]

The old house in the middle was demolished once the tennants passed away. Apparently they had a long lease that they'd never see the end of (99 years or something similar). He used to have chooks running around the yard whe I first started; not sure what happened to them once he departed.

Thanks for all the information everyone - that information from Nigel was interesting. Imagine if they had lived longer, given the changes in the airport.

I am jealous they had such a residence in such a good location ;)

[NeilP]

When I was a kid I used to ride my BMX from Maroubra (along Foreshore Rd and through the tunnel - before helmets were mandatory) and sit on the slope next to that house, dreaming of living in it one day...

There were also times I would go with my dad and sit with some of the old Gate 20 crew...

I love these types of threads as I was into plane spotting up until I was about 15 years old and having just come back to the hobby after a 20 odd year absence, I love seeing all the changes, aircraft, airlines and such that I missed out on at the time...

Keep 'em coming, I say...

[Michael Cleary]

When I first moved to Sydney in 1976, there were about 6 houses to the East of Gate 20. They were removed one by one, and the Gate 20 viewing area itself went at about the same time as the last house. I did ask a question about those houses back in the days of the old Board, and I think Will Tidmarsh replied with information that now escapes me.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Nigel, I Google'd the airport site yesterday and saw the roof you mentioned.

The image is quite old so the staff carpark is full and only 2 stand-off aprons in operation (April 2007 from memory).

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Just to show how keen we were in those days, we even got together and had our own caps made (about $6 then):

[NeilP]

Just to show how keen we were in those days, we even got together and had our own caps made (about $6 then):

I think my father had something to do with getting T-shirts printed as well...

[Peter Agatsiotis]

I remember some talk about T-shirts but don't recall any being made AFIK.

It was a good spot but not for photography. Most of 'that club' are still around but now we have a few good locations we are spread about the mound, the beach and the GA area. Others have retired or moved interstate.

In those days 07/25 were obviously used a lot more than they are now.

[phil.l]

Pete still got my cap,but dont remember shirts,any idea when we brought them?(year)

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Long time ago Phil, I think Mike C organised them but could be wrong.

[phil.l]

I think it was brian.