Boeing Does Redesign Work On 787 - Report

[Gerald A]

March 20, 2008
Boeing said it would have to redesign parts of its 787 Dreamliner, raising the prospect of a new delay to the new aircraft, the Financial Times reported on Thursday.

According to the FT, Boeing was responding to a warning from the chairman of International Lease Finance, the 787's biggest customer, saying the state of the 787 program was "not pretty".

Boeing told the FT it is doing some redesign work but said the ILFC was not painting an accurate picture of the overall program.

(Reuters)


Gerald

[Brenden S]

I wonder if its going to blow out more than the A380. Both Boeing and Airbus are using new technology so there will have to be problems along the line somewhere.

[Greg M]

I wonder if its going to blow out more than the A380. Both Boeing and Airbus are using new technology so there will have to be problems along the line somewhere.

I guess Airbus hope it will and Boeing hope it wont, at least with the A380 delays it makes it easier for Boeing to justify the delays, as ugly as it might seem, its make more sense to delay before its released then to gain bad publicity and require retrofits after release.
Look at A380, all the post delivery publicity and response has been very positive.

[Scott Lindsell]

Something I've wanted to mention to you guys back in Oz for a while during the board outage ..... I can't see power on being as currently anticipated. I was up at PAE the other day and saw the first three frames. There is a lot of work yet to be done, pieces lying all around the aircraft, and at the time I was there not a whole lot of people working on it (could have been shift change and it was a FRI). The factory floor is a sight to be seen. Unlike the conventional factory floor with a couple of small stations I would estimate around 500 small cubicles and stations each with a laptop or desktop and hundreds of employees working out in the open. There were panels missing, cowlings off, and the paint looked a little sad after its roll out ceremony. The second and third frames on the line (non-airworthy test) looked in better shape and seemed to have more attention on them.
Looks can be deceiving and I'm sure another update from Boeing (read possible delay) may be around the corner.
I wouldn't put much emphasis on 'changing the design/specs' articles as it's well known they are trying to reduce weight issues and that also falls under this category.
Scott.

[Shameel Kumar]

Thanks Scott for the first-hand information mate! :) ... great that you're able to share such information!

Just curious though... this entire time I've been wondering what exactly has been the root cause of these 787 delays. You stated that the 787 ate too much and now is on a diet..but is this the sole reason for these continual delays or just the latest of a string of problems?

Boeing made it clear that the first few 787 frames would be overweight, no suprise there.. but these continual delays suggest that the weight problems are more a 'permanent' issue rather than just exclusive to the first few frames... :o

[Ash W]

Thanks Scott for the first-hand information mate! :) ... great that you're able to share such information!

Just curious though... this entire time I've been wondering what exactly has been the root cause of these 787 delays. You stated that the 787 ate too much and now is on a diet..but is this the sole reason for these continual delays or just the latest of a string of problems?

Boeing made it clear that the first few 787 frames would be overweight, no suprise there.. but these continual delays suggest that the weight problems are more a 'permanent' issue rather than just exclusive to the first few frames... :o

According to other sources (the orders E group), it seems as if the major problem is a full redesign of the wing box. This redesign has also contributed to the weight problem and slowed down the whole process.

[Shameel Kumar]

According to other sources (the orders E group), it seems as if the major problem is a full redesign of the wing box. This redesign has also contributed to the weight problem and slowed down the whole process.

Thanks for that Ash!

Makes me wonder though... is this wingbox redesign required purely because a problem arose as they began putting the first few frames together (ie: a legitimate issue that came up) ... or .... whether they're attempting to modify the wingbox and its surrounding structure to put in a larger landing gear so as to further increase MTOW of the 787-10 and other possible variants such as the -11 or -9LR.
I've got the distinct impression that Airbus' strategy to offer a 787+777 competitor in the A350X as opposed to a direct 787 opponent has caught Boeing off guard, and they've come to the realisation that eventhough the 787-8 is an excellent sized aircraft, the 787 range won't be easy to extend into a 777-sized category. I'm guessing they never planned on having to create a 777 family replacement so soon since the 777 was/is doing well..but Airbus's strategy has meant that the 787-9 is currently the largest next-generation aircraft Boeing has on offer (excluding the 747-8 since it seems like a sales-lemon)..and airlines are wanting something a bit bigger than the -9 to go alongside their current 787-8/9 order (Qantas is of course a prime example of this). Most importantly, they don't want the 787-10 to simply be the same MTOW as the -9 and just trade capacity for range.

This is why I believe Boeing is still stuck in deciding between offering a 787-10 with no MTOW increase (the cheap, quick and 'easy' option but not many airlines will be impressed)... or going all out and expanding the 787 family to effectively counter the A350X family (but in the process pretty much kill-off the 777, and this will be cost and time intensive program extension).


Oh decisions decisions... :(

[Dave Powell]

and so we await equal hysteria to that surrounding the A380 delays..........:rolleyes:

[Shameel Kumar]

and so we await equal hysteria to that surrounding the A380 delays..........:rolleyes:

What will be most interesting is the compensation dollars that Boeing will have fork out..more importantly how they go about it. The A380 delays did wonders for A330 sales due to airlines opting to order discounted A330s over receiving compensation cash... wonder if Boeing will adopt a similar pricing strategy for their 777s since the 767 wouldn't really be an attractive option for airlines.

There have been rumours circulating that Virgin Atlantic is planning to cancel its 787 order due to the delays and in the interim order some 777s.
Thing is though, I doubt Boeing and GE would be too willing to give heavy discounts on their 772LRs or 773ERs...and at the same time I get the impression not many airlines would be interested in additional 772ER since it is now widely known that the 772LR out-performs the -200ER on missions greater than ~5000nm due to its ability to lift more cargo.

[Shameel Kumar]

http://www.nea.gov/national/homecoming/images/BoeingLogoSmall.jpg

787 Programme Update | Boeing Announces Agreement to Acquire Vought Share of Global Aeronautica

SEATTLE, March 28 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA) announced today it has agreed to acquire Vought Aircraft Industries' interest in Global Aeronautica, LLC, a South Carolina fuselage sub-assembly facility for Boeing's newest airplane, the 787 Dreamliner. After the transaction is complete, Global Aeronautica will become a 50-50 joint venture between The Boeing Company and Alenia North America, a subsidiary of Italy's Alenia Aeronautica -- a Finmeccanica company. Vought will continue to produce the aft fuselage for the 787 at its facility adjacent to Global Aeronautica in North Charleston.

Link to Full Article (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-28-2008/0004781846&EDATE=)


Sounds like a further delay announcement soon, but at the same time it looks like Boeing is taking some pretty big and important steps to get the 787 mess sorted out and the programme back on track!

[Kurt A]

Sounds like a further delay announcement soon


Boeing to provide Dreamliner update

Boeing is expected to announce further delays to its 787 Dreamliner program early Thursday Australian time, a further blow to the longhaul expansion plans of Jetstar, which awaits the plane. The US airframer is holding a press conference tomorrow in the US during which it “will discuss progress to date”. Airbus CEO Tom Enders said its rival to the 787, the A350, was still on track.

-tw

[Brenden S]

772LR to Jetstar and then to QF? as A330 vs A380 for Qantas.....

[Ash W]

772LR to Jetstar and then to QF? as A330 vs A380 for Qantas.....

Wishful thinking I would say. Isn't the 777 line more or less full as is?

[D Chan]

777s would be nice (777-300ER would be even nicer) but probably won't happen, unless Boeing is willing to subsidise the costs of introducing a new type of aircraft to the Qantas fleet e.g. Maintenance, Crewing, Flight Training and the lot. At least with the A380 saga, Qantas got more airframes of what they had already in their fleet (A330s).

[Andrew M]

QF/JQ won't get the 777, its really far too late to be trying to introduce these into a fleet.

However, this just goes to show that QF/JQ should have ordered the 777 many many years ago! JQ could be flying to the USA now with a 773ER or 772LR, and have beaten Virgin to this route. However it is clear that Virgin is not that interested in being low cost for their long haul international!

Only a matter of time before Virgin Blue goes full service as well I think, and then joins Star Alliance for domestic flights! This is just my thoughts, I have no inside information at at all!

[Rhys Xanthis]

I think that when/if Tiger leaves the market because of unsustainable fares, i think we will see VirginBlue become full service airline, and once they can get the funding, start up an Extreme LCC offshoot.

[BradR]

I would guess that QF will either go for discounts on existing 738 orders / options or a straight cash payout. They are unlikely to want to introduce another new type in the short-term given the workload involved in introducing the A380 and 787s over the next couple of years.

Brad

[Kurt A]

The delivery of the Boeing 787 will be a further six to nine month late, the aircraft manufacturer is expected to announce tomorrow morning, Australia tme. Investors now predict the first aircraft may not be delivered until at least September 2009, despite Boeing claiming it will deliver 109 aircraft next year. Boeing has received 895 orders for the new aircraft.

-tw

[Olle Q]

This is Dreamliner news coming from BBC:

Boeing has announced another major delay to delivery of its new 787 Dreamliner aircraft.
The plane is now about 15 months behind its original schedule. The first flight will be in the fourth quarter of 2008.
The target for delivery of the first plane to Japan's All Nippon Airways is now the third quarter of 2009. The previous target was early 2009.
Boeing has blamed slow progress on assembly and continuing problems with suppliers for the delays.
'Regret'
In a statement, Boeing said the new timetable included "additional schedule margin to reduce risk of further delays on the program".
"We deeply regret the disruption and disappointment these changes will cause for our customers and we will work closely with each of them to minimize the impact," Scott Carson, head of Boeing's commercial airplanes division.
But the firm's shares rose nearly 4% in early trading after it said the latest delays would not have an adverse impact on its profits this year.
Boeing had received 802 orders for the Dreamliner by the start of 2008, which makes it the planemaker's fastest selling model.
It will be Boeing's first completely new aircraft since 1995.
It takes advantage of new technology that allows much of it to be made of plastic composites instead of aluminium, which means it is lighter and, Boeing claims, will consume 20% less fuel than other, similar-sized planes.
It also has a greater range than similar-sized planes, which Boeing hopes will mean it can open up new, direct long-haul routes.
This strategy is in contrast to the new Airbus A380, which also suffered from hefty delays before it finally entered service in October.
The A380 is designed to carry larger numbers of people between hubs where they can change onto smaller aircraft to reach their final destinations.

[Ash W]

No surprise really and good to see they have given the thing a more realistic time frame rather than rush like they had orginally planned.

I note that the quote ANA's revised delivery time and not their original time.

[Gerald A]

16-Apr-2008 :

BOEING officially announced its revised plan for first flight and initial deliveries of the 787 Dreamliner that includes additional schedule margin to reduce risk of further delays on the programme.

First flight is being rescheduled due to slower than expected completion of work that travelled from supplier facilities into Boeing’s final assembly line, unanticipated rework, and the addition of margin into the testing schedule. The schedule now targets approximately 25 deliveries in 2009.
First flight of Dreamliner will move into the fourth quarter of this year rather than the end of the second quarter, and first delivery is now planned for the third quarter of 2009 instead of first quarter.

Company officials expressed confidence in the new plan and the steps being taken to accelerate programme performance.

“Over the past few months, we have taken strong actions to confront and overcome start-up issues on the programme, and we have made solid progress,” said Boeing Commercial Airplanes president and chief executive officer, Scott Carson. “Nevertheless, the travelled work situation and some unanticipated rework have prevented us from hitting the milestones we laid out in January. Our revised schedule is built upon an achievable, high-confidence plan for getting us to our power-on and first-flight milestones.

“We deeply regret the disruption and disappointment these changes will cause for our customers, and we will work closely with each of them to minimise the impact. We have taken significant action to improve supply chain and production system performance, such as our investment in Global Aeronautica, but based on our assessment, the prudent course is to proceed with a more gradual ramp up to full-rate production,” said Carson.

The manufacturer faces compensation claims from airlines affected by the delays and will be desperate to ensure it does not fall into the same trap as Airbus did with the A380, by missing revised targets on a number of occasions, adding to the frustration of customers.



Gerald

[Kurt A]

Boeing pays competitor Airbus via Qantas for delay
(http://www.etravelblackboard.com/forum/forumarticle.asp?articleid=76648) (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/index.asp?id=76648&nav=130#) (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/index.asp?id=76648&nav=130#)

Jetstar will request Qantas directors accept a $200 million deal today, which will enable the budget brand to lease a fleet of Airbus jetliners, paid for by the compensation demanded from Boeing.

The board meeting has the cost of acquiring new planes on the agenda, as well as the financial reparations to be received from Boeing after the delays in delivering the 787 Dreamliner.

The directors will also consider an overhauled frequent flyer plan.

The most significant focus for the directors will relate to filling a gap in aircraft capacity, resulting from the third delay in delivery of the new Boeing jet, which is now 15 months behind schedule.

Business Day reports that Qantas sources anticipate the amount to be in excess of the $200 million that Airbus paid to Qantas following the two year delay of the first A380.

Although numbers have not been admitted, a senior airline source informed Business Day, “if you look at the size of the Boeing order against the 12 planes that Airbus delayed you get some idea of how much Boeing will have to pay.”

The delay in delivery has already breached the multimillion dollar contract where Qantas had placed firm orders for 65 Dreamliners and options for a further 50.

Qantas could still renege unscathed, due to the breach, but has clarified that it remains confidence that the fuel efficient Dreamliner will be beneficial and profitable for Jetstar.

The new route plans for Jetstar will be delayed by at least six months, and hence Boeing is expected to compensate for the loss of potential earning and the fact Jetstar will lose the opportunity to be the first discount airline operating certain routes into Asia.

The leasing agreement is necessary for Jetstar to preserve their market share and attract passengers for their expansion plans into Europe.

Jetstar fears that without the new planes, they’ll “be behind the eight-ball when Air AsiaX launches cheap flights from Australia to Europe,” a Qantas senior divulged to Business Day.

Air AsiaX has already announced the plans for cheap flights to London, using their Airbus A350s, but Jetstar will have a limited range with A330s, and will only just reach Athens or Rome.
-eTravel

[Shameel Kumar]

Jetstar fears that without the new planes, they’ll “be behind the eight-ball when Air AsiaX launches cheap flights from Australia to Europe,” a Qantas senior divulged to Business Day.

Air AsiaX has already announced the plans for cheap flights to London, using their Airbus A350s, but Jetstar will have a limited range with A330s, and will only just reach Athens or Rome.


I think that's a typo, should be A330s since Air AsiaX has not order A350s, only 10 additional A330s a few weeks ago.

Should be an interesting race to see who gets their A330s first... Air AsiaX who have ordered straight from Airbus, or Jetstar who are desperate to find A330s to lease. :)

If JQ did want to fly to London, where exactly would they intend to stop-over? If Air Asia X will be able to fly from Asia to London, then why wouldn't JQ be able to fly to London via an Asian hub? Even with 787s they wouldn't be able to do direct to London.. so what's the big fuss about only being able to fly to Athens or Rome?

[Kurt A]

Boeing moved the 787 Dreamliner static test airframe from its Final Assembly facility in Everett to its structural test rig on Friday. The test rig is located only 1,000 feet away from Final Assembly at the Everett factory.

The final stages of assembly to be completed on the static airframe will be finished concurrently with test set-up which is expected to begin immediately. Test will begin this summer.

"During static tests we apply loads to the airplane structure that simulate both normal operation as well as extreme flight conditions," said Randy Harley, vice president of Engineering & Technology for the 787 program. "We monitor the airplane to confirm analytical predictions and make sure the structure holds up to these conditions."

Movement of the static airframe clears the way to begin assembly of the third 787 to enter the flight test program. Most pieces of the third airplane arrived in Everett earlier this month. All assemblies for Airplane number three are now in Everett, and the airplane will be loaded into the first position of Final Assembly early next week. -eTravel

[Rhys Xanthis]

I was watching a documentary on Discovery Channel today called Decoding Distaster - Planes.

It was basically about composite materials and how they go in an airplane. They referred to a few accidents with A300/A310's with composite materials that failed during flight.

It did get me thinking how structurally sound the 787 would be. After having watched it, from what i can tell, one needs pretty decent ultrasound equipment to tell if the fuselage is damaged or not (even under a microscope, things dont show up). It also said that the FAA (when they made the doco) had left it upto individual airlines to purchase/use such equipment.

After seeing it, it doesn't leave me with a lot of hope that the 787 will be a strucutrally sound airliner. All these little things that could go wrong with the fuselage make me uneasy.

While I am sure Boeing would NEVER build a strucutrally un-sound airliner, I am of the belief that not all airlines will use the best maintenance procedures, and i doubt many will considering ultrasound equipment is likely required to see small stress fractures.(seriously, how much would it cost, and how long would it take to examine a whole plane!). On the doco, they hit a piece of Carbon Fibre with a hammer, and ultrasounded it, to come up with TINY bits of damaged areas.

I don't know...perhaps others thoughts on this? Perhaps im a crazy old cook (at the ripe old age of 17:p), nevertheless, its slightly concerning.

[Ash W]

I have the same reservations myself, but I do trust that Boeing, the airlines and the regulators will address all issues, including maintenance to ensure it is as safe as any conventional airframe.

[Olle Q]

Hey you guys, found this on www.flightglobal.com
:confused:

Boeing 787 customers are being advised that they face delays of at least two years to their first deliveries following the latest programme slip, and are preparing to seek compensation.
Industry sources say that the average delay to first delivery is around 27 months. Air Canada, which has 37 787s on order, says it has been informed by Boeing that its first delivery will be pushed back by 24-30 months to around January 2012.
The airline's chief executive Montie Brewer says the carrier "will run into [capacity] issues in 2010 when the first aircraft was supposed to show up.
Sources say that Qatar Airways is facing a similar length of delay to Air Canada, of over two years. The airline has 30 firm orders and 30 options, the first of which had been due in August 2010. Qatar Airways chief executive Akbar Al Baker says the airline will exercise existing 777 options to bridge the 787 delay and is considering additional leases.
Air Canada and Qatar Airways confirm they will seek compensation from Boeing.
LAN Airlines, which has 32 787s on order, has warned that it is facing a delay of around two years, while Royal Jordanian expects to wait up to 30 months to the delivery of its first of 11 aircraft on order.
The delay for North American launch customer Northwest Airlines, which has 18 787s on order, is not as significant. The carrier expects its first delivery to slip from the original August 2008 target to the fourth quarter of 2009.
The 787 had been due to enter service this month with launch customer All Nippon Airways, but service entry has been postponed until next year because of ongoing production problems that delayed the first flight, which had been due in 2007 and is now expected late this year.

[Rhys Xanthis]

This is getting out of hand.

Really out of hand.

The airlines will be screaming for HUGE compensation for this delay if its true...

I wonder how this will effect QF...