Diversions due to fog YSSY today

[Krzysztof M]

Some spotters will get lucky today, as fog is causing diversions this morning in Sydney. RVR 34L is below 500m.

So far confirmed (overheard on the scanner) that:

-MEL will get the A380 as SQ221 is diverting.

-QF12 and UA839 are not taking chances and are heading for BNE.

-Have also heard QF6 requesting climb to FL320 so possibly heading for MEL?

-EK412 and TG993 are holding and thinking.

May be more as it's only after 5am.

[lloyd fox]

Virgin Atlantic inbound to BNE as well as QF 829.

QF 42,BA009,QF12 are also planned for BNE.

[Mark T]

Air Tahiti Nui has just had a missed approach and Lan Chile is lining up on
34L to make an attempt at landing.

[Mark T]

Lan Chile missed approach as well!

[Krzysztof M]

yeah, both are now off to MEL. RVR in the middle of the runway dropped to below 400m..

[Andrew P]

my QF735 to ADE at 07.10 has not yet been cancelled, so should be away in 25 minutes

all QF flights to CBR cancelled, as well as some to BNE & MEL (must ensuing planes are leaving 100% full)

Banjo

[Alex Lui]

Yep. SQ221 should be landing right about now in Melbourne. Leaves at 7.45am for an arrival into Sydney a little after 9am. Good thing they have 4 flights today where most aircraft can be interchangeable.

CX111 is due into Sydney at 9.23am. It has diverted to Melbourne and arrives at about 7.10am.

EK412 is due into Sydney at 8.46am. It has diverted to Melbourne as well.

Now question... Does Melbourne have the gates to accommodate the influx of extra flights?

Alex.

[Alex Lui]

At the moment from Canberra the Dash 8 flights are cancelled with QF872 and QF560 are departing 7.30 and 7.20 respectively.

Alex.

[Sarah C]

The view (or lack of it) at the airport at the moment is amasing. I can't see the runway so who knows who is trying to land. A couple of cancellations as well - the UA863 from SFO and the QF42 (Manila?). Most look like they are due to land about 8:30-9am, when the fog is due to lift.

The ATC people would be having fun this morning!

[Sarah C]

Yep. SQ221 should be landing right about now in Melbourne.

MEL would be happy to see the SQ A380!

[Sarah C]

The fog is starting to lift - MH 747 just landed on 16R. A JQ A320 landed on 16L so it looks like the traffic will start.

[Andrew C]

I could see little of the airfield with the fog this Am, but it seems to be slowly clearing at the northern end now.

very spectacular site. Heavier than i have seen in a while.

[Lukas M]

Today is going to be one messed up day! I feel sorry for all the kids down at AVV, thats like 3/4 SYD flights going nowhere, and plus A BNE flight, its going to one packed terminal!

[Andrew C]

Looks like it is significantly clearing now, we can see the other side of the airfield.

[Sarah C]

Fog has almost completely cleared. Amazing what a difference it was compared to 20 mins to go

[Andrew C]

I am intrigued by the cancellation of UA 863. As the flight is 14 hours long, about, would UA know that far ahead of issues in Sydney and take this action.

Interesting any enlightenment??

[lloyd fox]

OK

BNE diversions

CA173,VS200,UA 839,QF 829,QF108,QF42,BA009,JO771,QF12,QF128,KE121,OZ601. .along with BNE normal 40+ INT arrivals today we will exceed 50+ .

[Marty H]

Yep. SQ221 should be landing right about now in Melbourne. Leaves at 7.45am for an arrival into Sydney a little after 9am. Good thing they have 4 flights today where most aircraft can be interchangeable.

CX111 is due into Sydney at 9.23am. It has diverted to Melbourne and arrives at about 7.10am.

EK412 is due into Sydney at 8.46am. It has diverted to Melbourne as well.

Now question... Does Melbourne have the gates to accommodate the influx of extra flights?

Alex.

Negetive MEL will be a major mess this morning now.

[Andrew P]

my QF735 to ADE at 07.10 has not yet been cancelled, so should be away in 25 minutes

all QF flights to CBR cancelled, as well as some to BNE & MEL (must ensuing planes are leaving 100% full)

Banjo
no problema arrived ADL on time

while waiting to take-off at 715am Garuda & EK both landed thru the go

Banjo

[Daniel M]

MEL was an absolute mess this morning. From what I saw, we got Singapore A380, BAW 777, Air Tahiti A340, Etihad A340, Lan Chile A340, plus a heap more. About 5 planes were parked on the freight apron and on Sierra taxiway, with the international terminal full. Planes were going everywhere due to a heap of taxiway closures with the current terminal works. Most planes landed are were held on the taxiways for at least 20 minutes, some more. Lot of delays.

[Seth Jaworski]

I was out there until 10:30 and when I left the A380 hadn't shown up, only a 744. CX, KE, OZ, Etihad, Air Tahiti, UA hadn't arrived either.

[Kieran Wells]

I am intrigued by the cancellation of UA 863. As the flight is 14 hours long, about, would UA know that far ahead of issues in Sydney and take this action.

Interesting any enlightenment??

I am surprised that the united website doesn't show anything more that "Flight Cancelled", and I do agree. Maybe this flight wasn't even going to fly, without fog. Otherwise, if it did it could have been like all the others and diverted..

[Alex Lui]

CX110 is now showing as cancelled on both the HOng Kong airport website and on the Cathay Website itself.

HOpe people got some good shots from Melbourne!

Alex.

[Ken K]

UA863 is showing on Flightaware as flight status "Scheduled" for 13/5 so I don't think it took off at all. -OJF QF12 is showing as terminating in BNE too.. as QF6001 has been canned looks like she might be operating the QF175 today.

Alex, looks like it's still operating though. Sydney Airport website showing CX110 ETD 4.15pm

[Kieran Wells]

CX110 is now showing as cancelled on both the HOng Kong airport website and on the Cathay Website itself.

Alex.

not showing on the sydney airport site yet....

[Sarah C]

A380 just touched down

[Michael Wright]

The view (or lack of it) at the airport at the moment is amasing. I can't see the runway so who knows who is trying to land. A couple of cancellations as well - the UA863 from SFO and the QF42 (Manila?). Most look like they are due to land about 8:30-9am, when the fog is due to lift.

The ATC people would be having fun this morning!

I believe QF42 is from Jakarta (CGK. The return flight from Manila would be QF20.

[Kieran Wells]

I believe QF42 is from Jakarta (CGK. The return flight from Manila would be QF20.

Michael, Correct!
Still trying to understand the american cancellations...Especially since the first post said QF12 was still coming..

[phil.l]

With all the diversions going on it looks like China Airlines new A330 B-18353
C/N 920 arrived on time.

[matthew mcdonald]

Was the Etihad airbus an A340-600?

Thanks

[Marty H]

Was the Etihad airbus an A340-600?

Thanks

Yes it was.

Had SQ A380 Eithad A346 Air Tahiti Nui A343 Lan A343 Thai B772 BA B772 CX A333 as the diversions

[Andrew C]

It could be coincidence, but if not that the BOM fog warning was issued at 4pm the day prior. UA could have seen that looked at the load and decided to cancel for operational reasons.

[Andrew C]

is there technology or additional upgrade to current infrastructure that would allow more planes to land in fog.

[Lukas M]

7news Melbourne just aired a story on "the A380's first ever commercial flight into Melbourne", so looks like Qantas cant say this now:D

[Rhys Xanthis]

7news Melbourne just aired a story on "the A380's first ever commercial flight into Melbourne", so looks like Qantas cant say this now:D

Hardly a commercial flight into Melbourne...i'd still claim it:p

[Philip Argy]

is there technology or additional upgrade to current infrastructure that would allow more planes to land in fog.

I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that landing is not a problem - the technology can do that with zero visibility. The problem is what happens after the landing roll - I believe there's a minimum visibility requirement for safe taxiing.

I'm sure someone in the know will soon tell us what the rules say.

My QF512 to BNE scheduled for 0905 was delayed about 80 minutes this morning but I managed to grab seat 22 Charlie on QF 510 - scheduled to depart at 0835 but VH-TJW only achieved wheels up off RWY 34R at about 1005 with arrival into BNE on RWY 19 about 62 minutes later after an unusually bumpy ride up the coast.

[lloyd fox]

Philip, the landing would have been extremely bumpy too as there is no runway 05 :rolleyes:

[Rhys Xanthis]

Its to do with RVR isnt it? I remember seeing an Air Crash Investigation about an AA plane that crashed in Little Rock.

[Nigel C]

I believe the GBAS system will allow for lower minimums when it's formally commissioned (that's if it's not already fully operational...I must look into that!).

The cost of upgrading and maintaining the approach lighting to a higher category is not feasible, as we only have fog on average for less than 10 days per year.

[Mick F]

Phillip, the ILS that is used in Australian airports is only Category 1 type. This does NOT permit landing in zero/zero. The Cat 1 will only permit an approach down to 200ft above ground and requires 800m visibility.

To do a landing in zero/zero you'd need a Category 3C ILS. There are currently none in Australia. They are also extremely expensive and require constant recalibration, and as Nigel has said, for those 10 days of the year when they receive fog, it's simply not viable.

Mick

[Phil M]

Melbourne is getting a Cat 3B ILS on 16. To be commissioned September I think.

[David Ramsay]

The new Cat III at NZAA is getting a good workout this morning.

ATIS NZAA L 2302
APCH: ILSDME
RWY: 23L
SFC COND: DAMP
OPR INFO: ATC LOW VISIBILITY PROCEDURES ARE IN OPERATION
LANDING AIRCRAFT MUST VACATE AT RUNWAY END VIA TWY A10
WND: VRB04
VIS: 0400 RED 0200
WX: FG
CLD: OVC001
TT: 09
DP: 09
QNH: 1029
2000FT: RCALM


RVR currently 275/275/325

Most of the international flights have got in OK although TN had to hold for a while as the 343 was only Cat II. Domestic stuff is all either grounded or holding.

[Philip Argy]

Phillip, the ILS that is used in Australian airports is only Category 1 type. This does NOT permit landing in zero/zero. The Cat 1 will only permit an approach down to 200ft above ground and requires 800m visibility.

To do a landing in zero/zero you'd need a Category 3C ILS. There are currently none in Australia. They are also extremely expensive and require constant recalibration, and as Nigel has said, for those 10 days of the year when they receive fog, it's simply not viable.

Mick

Thanks, Mick - that's the missing piece of information/explanation that I needed.

[Mark D]

Thanks, Mick - that's the missing piece of information/explanation that I needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_Landing_System#ILS_categories tells you about the categories of ILS.

As stated at the moment all Oz ILS are Cat I - there is considerable expense in maintaining ILSs at higher categories than you "need"

Additionally in Sydney, being so close to the city, the amount of RFI (radio frequency interference) is an issue, keeping the ILS at the current level seems to be hard enough!
Avalon on the other hand would be OK :-)

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

I was surprised to see UA839 diverted to BNE.
Why didn't it just go direct to YMML as it normally does after landing in Sydney?

That flight then becomes UA840 and returns back to Sydney, before continuing to the US.

Stuart

[Tim Bowrey]

You have a good point Stuart. It would have been better to go streight to MEL rather than stopping at 3 destinations, one in which UA doesnt even go to. If QF94 can do LAX-MEL so can it;) Drop the MEL passengers off 1st then head back up to SYD to drop the early morning arrival passengers off. And its not like you can buy a ticket SYD-MEL or MEL-SYD with UA anyway so they wouldn't have had to pick anyone up.

Tim

[Daniel F]

And its not like you can buy a ticket SYD-MEL or MEL-SYD with UA anyway so they wouldn't have had to pick anyone up.

Actually they do pick people in Sydney for the SYD-MEL sector. You can't buy a standalone ticket for SYD-MEL, but you can get a ticket involving a trans-Pacific sector that has a stopover in Sydney and then continues onto Melbourne at a later date.

[Andrew McLaughlin]

You have a good point Stuart. It would have been better to go streight to MEL rather than stopping at 3 destinations, one in which UA doesnt even go to. If QF94 can do LAX-MEL so can it;) Drop the MEL passengers off 1st then head back up to SYD to drop the early morning arrival passengers off. And its not like you can buy a ticket SYD-MEL or MEL-SYD with UA anyway so they wouldn't have had to pick anyone up.

Tim

They may have only taken on enough fuel for SYD, or they may have encountered unusually strong headwinds meaning they used more fuel than anticipated. Why carry enough fuel to fly an extra 500+nm when you don't need it?

Don't forget the QF jets that usually do LAX-MEL are 747-400ERs or are often payload restricted...UA's jets aren't ERs.

[D Chan]

You have a good point Stuart. It would have been better to go streight to MEL rather than stopping at 3 destinations, one in which UA doesnt even go to. If QF94 can do LAX-MEL so can it;) Drop the MEL passengers off 1st then head back up to SYD to drop the early morning arrival passengers off. And its not like you can buy a ticket SYD-MEL or MEL-SYD with UA anyway so they wouldn't have had to pick anyone up.

Tim


I'm sure that if they could they wouldve diverted to Melbourne instead. The Ground staff would surely appreciate it if they had made it to Melbourne and turned the flight around as the 840. Would reduce the delay significantly and avoid a lot of hassles.

But time and time again when there's fog they've diverted to BNE - this suggests they don't have the fuel to make it to Melbourne.