VB to sell the E170 and replace it with Turboprops

[Mark Grima]

Hey guys,

From smh.com.au

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/virgin-blue-ditches-jets-to-go-retro/20110131-1aabi.html

Intersting move, a few different aircraft types in the fleet now. Although which prop driven aircraft is yet to be confirmed.

Cheers

M

[Oliver Gigacz]

This is very old news.

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/09/01/166951_news.html

[AaronBradford]

The old news is the selling of the E170, the new news is their possible replacement with turboprops (up to 18 will be leased) rather than dropping the routes altogether.

[Oliver Gigacz]

Again this news is three weeks old.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2011/01/virgin-blue-and-skywest-to-team-up-on-regional-routes/

[Paul f.]

Oliver no one is saying this is new news, Mark was only posting the link from the from todays SMH.

[AaronBradford]

Nonetheless, I don't see any open topics on the subject in these forums, so I have no problem with discussing it here.

[Rod Sloan]

So what turboprops would they be looking at ? Obviously the Q400 would be one. What else is comparable ?
I note the AA article lists the ATR as a possibility. Nice aircraft, but a good bit slower.

[Jarden S]

That SMH post it is a well balanced article was a informative read as will help the layman to understand the situation. We will have to wait for the big announcement from DJ of what aircraft they select might happen when the new brand is officially launched. If they give around 8 to replace Skywest's F50s that leaves about 10 for DJ new routes. They may get ATRs or do a joint purchase with Air NZ, will have to wait and see.

[Chris B.]

I don't think it'll be the Q400. It'll be the ATR (72?) I believe. The pilots will be employed by Skywest not Virgin. Similar sort of thing to Cobham flying around in Qlink B717s. But it's only rumour.

[Rob R]

All 18 aircraft are for the East Coast operation, this was stated in the Skywest press conference. Skywest will also use the same type to replace the F50 however it will be an additional order.

[Hugh Jarse]

No type has been announced yet. If what you say is right Chris, I'd hate to be flying around the southern latitudes during winter, bearing in mind ice is the ATR's Kryptonite.

From a pilot's perspective - give me the Dash in icing conditions anytime.

[Mark Grima]

Having never flown in a turboprop commercially (given the choice of a short flight or a drive, i'll choose the drive everytime), are the comments in the article regarding cabin noise etc etc justified and is there a big difference bwteen the different makes.

I would of thought Borghetti's knowledge of the Q400 would make that the favourite, however having the ATRs flying commerically in Australia would be a nice new sie to see, prsuming they are not flying for a charter airline or something now.

Cheers

M

[Raymond Rowe]

Shame Fokker is no longer in the market.I always loved flying on the F27.The F50 were not bad.

[Rod Sloan]

I'd hate to be flying around the southern latitudes during winter, bearing in mind ice is the ATR's Kryptonite.



Is this still a factor Hugh ?? Given Air NZ operate them at latitudes further south than Australia and have had no issues (that I know of anyway)

[Hugh Jarse]

Rod, I wasn't aware Air NZ had 72's. If that's the case, I suspect they operate to modified procedures to minimise their exposure to icing, because it was a well known problem with that variant, with at least 2 fatal crashes directly attributable to ice accretion.

There were many AD's directed at remedying the problem, but these only go part of the way to addressing the problem. Some operators in the U.S. have in fact moved (redeployed) their fleets of ATR's to more temperate climes to minimise exposure.

One advantage of the Q400 is that it has proven itself in Australia and is already on the Australian register. Putting a new type on takes quite some work. I'm not sure whether the 72 has been done here (yet).

There is a considerable sized workforce readily available to bring the Q400 on line with a new operator. Qantaslink is in a fairly heated dispute at the moment with both its engineers and pilots, with a significant number ready to resign at short notice. There is heightened interest from many of my former workmates at Eastern in which type is selected, such is the level of discontent with their present employer.

The tactical advantage of this dispute to Skywest, is the resource pressure it would put on Qantaslink, should a large number of specialised staff decide to leave at short notice. A crew and engineer shortage will cause them to reduce and/or cancel services, while enabling Skywest not only to service existing VB ports, but gain a foothold in existing Qantaslink monopoly ports.

[Geoff W]

Hugh,

Gee, so challenging times for the QLink?

I like the Q400's, however the service reliability factor for QLink will be an important part of their ongoing success.

Have observed some unusual erratic delays in recent times, from YMML services, unsure if this is related to your information. Of course they maybe just be weather, YMML runway works or normal ops related delays.

Or maybe, they will just give up and let someone else do it.

Another business arm, they dont need to worry about?

Get back to a QF/JQ business?

Kind regards,

Geoff

[Dale C]

whatever, I think we'll know soon. I was told the DJ board met yesterday to discuss the TP purchase and a decision could be only a matter of days away.

[lloyd fox]

Decision was made months ago.

[Jarden S]

I like the ATR as have more legroom at the window seat compared to the Q400s which seem narrower at the bottom less room for your feet.

[Rod Sloan]

Hugh,

Had a quick look at wiki for some info re icing on ATR's. Makes for interesting reading.

In April, 1996 the American FAA issued 18 Airworthiness Directives (ADs), in an apparent attempt to prevent further icing accidents in ATR aircraft. They included significant revisions of pilot operating procedures in icing conditions (higher minimum speeds, non-use of the autopilot, different upset recovery procedures) as well as physical changes to the coverage area of the de-icing boots on the airfoils.
While the ATR-42 and ATR-72 aircraft are now compliant with all icing condition requirements imposed by those 18 ADs, the de-icing boots still only reach back to 12.5% of the chord. Prior to the accident, they had extended only to 5% and 7%, respectively. They still fail to deal with the findings of the Boscombe Down tests, conducted by British regulators, which demonstrated that ice could form as far back on the wing as 23% of the chord, and on the tail at 30% of chord. Both percentages remain well beyond the limits of the extended deicing boots, installed in compliance with those FAA ADs.

[Jon B]

Article in the Voyuer magazine for Feb stated that 4 will arrive this year - i think the article said mid 2011 - will read it again tommorow night to check so on that basis one would assume they have made a decision as to type.

I have flown on Thai Airways ATR's - very much doubt there is icing issues for the Thai ATR fleet - was Bangkok to Nakon Si Thammarat in the South. There was no terminal - the plane just pulled up alongside a fence line next to a car park!

[Andi O]

If you consider to look at the ATR order book, there are 20 "undisclosed" aircraft orders to be announced. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen :)

[Steve S... 2]

Wow... ATR's... hot stuff!

YUCK!

[Jarden S]

I believe the purchase price is a bit lower than the Q400 so that maybe the deciding factor for Virgin Blue.

[Rob R]

I believe a buyer has been found for the 170's and will be announced around the 23rd or 24th of this month, as well as a few other things:D

[Kain C]

New E70 schedule effective March 10. Changes include an evening CBR-HBA overnighting in HBA and an early morning HBA-CBR. TSV-ROK down to 3 per week, sharing with TSV-OOL down to 4 per week. SYD-ROK down to 4 per week also. Only 7 of the 8 CBR-SYD will be E70, the other E90.

[Rob R]

I think you will find these changes are due to the first 170 leaving in the first week of march. Get your photos quick as all 170s will be leaving sooner rather than latter.

[Dave Parer]

New E70 schedule effective March 10. Changes include an evening CBR-HBA overnighting in HBA and an early morning HBA-CBR. TSV-ROK down to 3 per week, sharing with TSV-OOL down to 4 per week. SYD-ROK down to 4 per week also. Only 7 of the 8 CBR-SYD will be E70, the other E90.

Interesting new schedule. From Townsville point of view, I am confused with the operation of the E170 on the new schedule. TSV-CBR does not change, and TSV-CNS goes from six per week to a daily service but the time now is so much better. Instead of the early 6.30am departure to CNS, flight now departs TSV at 2.20pm, with a CNS departure back to TSV at 3.45pm. I feel this time will be a much more popular choice for travelers.

TSV-OOL is actually 3 per week (Mo, We, Sa) with TSV-ROK 4 per week (Tu, Th, Fr, Su). Seems the TSV-ROK flight departs TSV at 5.10pm then from ROK continues onto SYD (hence ROK-SYD now 4 per week).

This is what is confusing me. The TSV-CBR service remains the same 9.15am departure out of TSV. The original schedule had the E170 overnight in TSV, operate the early morning TSV-CNS-TSV flight before heading off to CBR.

I cannot see in the schedules where the E170 overnights in TSV anymore and the earliest arrival into TSV for the E170 is 10.05am from CBR? Were does the E170 come from that operates the DJ1888 service from TSV to CBR at 9.15am?

[Ryan K]

Regarding the new CBR-HBA times, this makes a lot more sense than the current lunch time departure from HBA. An early morning departure will most certainly suit politicians and business people from Hobart. The evening return flight to HBA would also be more appealing.

[Kain C]

Looks like the new schedule needs five aircraft with pretty full days. Two aircraft overnight in MEL, and one in each of CBR, SYD and HBA, so none in TSV for you Dave! The CBR-TSV can't possibly be operated by E70. Either it will be canned or alternatively operated by E90 or 737, but that would require rejigged timings. Under the old rotation, an E70 operated MEl-CBR-TSV-..., but under the new rotation operates MEL-CBR-MEL-MQL-... .

Yes Ryan, new timings are far better on CBR-HBA. Shame DJ seem top be canning the early HBA-SYD and evening SYD-HBA E90 service from March 10 also. Borghetti is going after the business market but he's throwing away a monopoly on day return trips HBA-SYD! :mad::mad::mad: They have the aircraft availability to operate it with an E70 under the new rotation, but obviously not the manpower.

Maybe the 330 will operate HBA-SYD-PER-SYD-HBA :D:D:D

[Alex Lui]

Speaking of changes to Canberra, Gold Coast gets a major change in that services on 136 operate on different times to the other days. The other bigger change is that a 737 operates the Gold Coast - Canberra leg on Tuesday Thursday Friday and Sundays. BUT here's the thing, I can't seem to find where it flies to after it arrives in Canberra, since the Melbourne flight operates daily into Canberra with a 737, which overnights but the Gold Coast one on those days I can't seem to find where it flies out to.

Either way, it'd be great to see 2 Virgin 737's again in Canberra on certain days. Oh, and the late night Melbourne flight operates on Wednesdays only, but on the 737 and not a E70. The Hobart flight seems to change back in April but I don't know if that's a minor glitch or not.

Alex.

[Dave Parer]

The CBR-TSV can't possibly be operated by E70. Either it will be canned or alternatively operated by E90 or 737

Not sure that VB has their schedules correct. There was a recent article in our local newspaper about VB and it was stated that TSV-CBR services are to remain, so I am at a loss to see where the aircraft comes from to operate the 9.15am TSV-CBR service.

Time will tell I guess.....

[Kain C]

I think this is the article Dave mentioned.

From: http://senatormacdonald.org/media639.html

VIRGIN BLUE TO CONTINUE DIRECT TOWNSVILLE CANBERRA SERVICES

09 September, 2010
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The Chief Executive Officer of Virgin Blue Mr John Borghetti has advised Townsville based Senator Ian Macdonald that as a result of his representations, he has decided to continue the direct Virgin Blue service between Townsville and Canberra.

“As a regular user of the direct service I was dismayed to read in the Townsville Bulletin on 1 September that Virgin were selling their Embraer E170 aircraft which is currently used on the Townsville Canberra route. “ Senator Macdonald said.

“Mr Borghetti advised me that the decision had been made to cease the service but after representations were received Mr Borghetti rang me to say he had ordered a stop to the plans to discontinue the service”

“I had pointed out that with the Army, Air Force, Australian Institute of Marine Science, James Cook University and the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority in Townsville there was a clear need for the direct service which can cut hours off this journey.

“I also pointed out that the last three months were not a good time to judge passenger numbers as with the calling of the election a lot of traffic to Canberra had ceased.

“I am delighted that Mr Borghetti has now confirmed to me in two telephone calls, that he will ensure the route continues although it will be with a different aircraft, perhaps the lager Embraer E190 or the Boeing 737.

“It now behoves all of us in North Queensland, particularly Federal Government Agencies, to use the direct flight to Canberra to justify Virgin Blue’s faith in continuing the direct route,” Senator Macdonald said.

END

9 September 2010

DJ schedules are definitely not correct at the moment. Must be still in the process of swapping stuff about, but they are cutting it a bit fine with less than three weeks until the new rotations start. The CBR-OOL must be 737 on days 2457 on BOTH legs. Pretty clear that the same aircraft operates CBR-OOL-CBR.

[Jarden S]

Not sure that VB has their schedules correct. There was a recent article in our local newspaper about VB and it was stated that TSV-CBR services are to remain, so I am at a loss to see where the aircraft comes from to operate the 9.15am TSV-CBR service.

Time will tell I guess.....

I have heard on another forum that Virgin are considering starting a PER-CBR route to compete with Qantas. So it maybe the aircraft that will continue on to TSV, who knows... someone who works for Virgin may have the inside information and have the answer.

[Will H]

I believe a buyer has been found for the 170's and will be announced around the 23rd or 24th of this month, as well as a few other things:D

I don't see VB announcing a buyer for jets it sold. Not the type of publicity it's going after.

[Rob R]

They may not announce the actual buyer, but they will have to announce when they are leaving the fleet and from what I'm hearing they will all be gone sooner then most think.

[Raymond Rowe]

I heard that the buyer was an airline who operates them in Brasil.Canno't remember the airlines name.

[Rob R]

I know who the buyer is and when they are going, but not allowed to post it. All I can say is the first one will be gone within the next 4 weeks.

[Lukas M]

so who's first? ZHA??

[Zac M]

If thy go in order of delivery then obviously ZHA, it will also be ZHA if they go in order of unreliability, although this issue appears to be widespread across the E170 fleet.

[Alex Lui]

I know who the buyer is and when they are going, but not allowed to post it. All I can say is the first one will be gone within the next 4 weeks.

I don't see why you can't post it, since it is on the Internet... :S

A simple search to ch-aviation.ch shows that the complete fleet of E170's is going back to Brazil with an airline called TRIP Linhas Aereas. That's what the website said, how reliable it is, I don't know.

Alex.

[John C]

He cant post it because if he does he will most likely be sacked.

[Radi K]

Delta right?

[Rob R]

John C spot on.

Alex, I cannot find anything on that site that shows the 170's going there. Their fleet does show 170's, but they are not Virgin Blue's. Can you copy and post the info from the site?

[AaronBradford]

John C spot on.

Alex, I cannot find anything on that site that shows the 170's going there. Their fleet does show 170's, but they are not Virgin Blue's. Can you copy and post the info from the site?

I've attached a screenshot from the site - I'd question the reliability, but it certainly is interesting. :)

[Rob R]

Thanks Aaron, I still will not say anything until it's official.

[Mark B]

ATR's according to the ASX release.

[Nigel S]

ASX release here:
http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110223/pdf/41wyyh3mshtl5s.pdf
Cheers

[Rob R]

Latest from Flightglobal (my bolding);

Virgin Blue expects to take delivery of its new ATR72 turboprops from May, with the -500 variant first to join the fleet.The carrier will have four of the type by end-July. It announced earlier today an order for up to 18 ATR72s, comprising both the -500 and -600 variants.

"We plan to have at least eight - at least eight - within the next 16 months," says chief executive John Borghetti.

ATR72-600 variants will replace the -500s from next February, he adds, declining to specify why the replacement will occur.It is not clear yet how many of the 18 aircraft are firm orders, and if future deliveries beyond next year will only be for the -600 variant.

"The ATR will form the foundation of our regional network plans, with the first six ATRs replacing our current Embraer E170 fleet and the additional aircraft flying to new regional destinations," Borghetti says.

Virgin Blue's seating configuration has not been announced but the -500 typically seats 68-72 passengers and the -600 up to 74 passengers.

The airline will wet-lease the aircraft from West Australia operator SkyWest under an agreement announced last month.

Skywest in turn will lease the aircraft from leasing company Avation with an initial term of ten years.

"The ATR is the best aircraft to operate on regional routes throughout Australia," Borghetti says. He adds that it burns one-third less fuel than the E170 and 20% to 30% less than its equivalent competitor, a statement likely in reference to the Bombardier Dash 8-400 aircraft that QantasLink operates on its regional routes.

"Not only is it compelling from an economics point of view, it's compelling from a customer perspective," Borghetti says. "It has a wider aisle and wider cabin than other aircraft we were looking at."

The carrier last August announced it was removing its six E170s as the aircraft was not a right fit for its network. It expects to make announcements in the near future about the E170 fleet's removal.

As most thought the -500 is only a stop-gap aircraft until the -600 is ready. Based on what they say above the first 4 aircraft will be in place by the time the last 170 leaves (from what I've been told). It would be mean as each of the new 190's (2 more to come) and the ATR's arrive another 170 will be removed ie 1 for 1 replacement.

[Kain C]

Good news for you Dave, new CBR-TSV-CBR schedules have been loaded, so that route stays intact with a different aircraft type.

Looks like the morning HBA-SYD and evening SYD-HBA have been dropped, and replaced by connecting services via the re-timed CBR-HBA-CBR services. Silly thing is though, it is roughly half the price to fly a connecting HBA-CBR-SYD than it is to just do the HBA-CBR leg on any day of the week! So if you want to fly HBA-CBR, book to SYD instead and then cancel the second leg! I'm currently booked to do a HBA-SYD return trip on the services that have been dropped; how long in general will it take for DJ to email/ring me and arrange to be re-booked?

[Ryan K]

Kain, I've just looked at Virgin Blue's website and it looks like that dropped SYD-HBA service is only for three weeks or so from mid March. When looking from early April onwards it's back to the three E90 services each way again. Hopefully it stays this way, that 6.25am non-stop flight to SYD is great to have.

[Kain C]

Ryan, I'm guessing you looked at the online timetables rather than the booking engine. The timetables are a bit behind. The changes to HBA-SYD and HBA-CBR have now been extended through to June or so. If the E70s are being replaced 1 for 1 (as per the media release) then shouldn't there be enough aircraft to maintain all services in the network, even if the aircraft type and departure times change a bit.

[Mike W]

More proliferation and more costs to DJ's fleet. Borghetti won't be happy until it's an Ansett clone and he'll end up with the same result. (My opinion of course).

Good for spotters though. Not sure if it's good for Virgin Blue as it drifts even further away from it's (successful) roots.

OK, the ATR's are being operated by Skywest, so maybe not so bad then

[Jack Melon]

Virgin have also cancelled the NTL-OOL Route (Return), wich sounds very silly to me, i fly that route every holidays for $69, Mostly all the time cheaper than JQ. Well what was the point of getting a velocity card then? Not happy with my favourite airline at the moment :(

[Radi K]

Not sure if it's good for Virgin Blue as it drifts even further away from it's (successful) roots.



i agree

[Mick F]

Mike,
Borghetti I believe will be very successful with what he is doing at Virgin. With the experience he has from Qantas, he has a very good idea of what works and what doesn't. The idea of Virgin staying a pure jet only fleet is simply not viable in the long term in a country where so much of it is serviced by regional turbo-props.

Mick

[D Chan]

Mike,
The idea of Virgin staying a pure jet only fleet is simply not viable in the long term in a country where so much of it is serviced by regional turbo-props.

Mick

Turboprop economics on shorter sectors = no brainer. He's also very smart to come up with the deal which basically gives them access to a fleet of props.
But I agree that he should be given a lot of credit for his game changing strategy. He has basically patched up all areas of weakness in the airline run by Brett Godfreys (undoubtedly his time at Qantas would have helped him) whilst working around all the business constraints. Mind you the game doesn't really change until its a success but he's laid the ground works for it.

The only downside is he's doing a lot of different things at the same time in a very short space of time so I wonder if it's sustainable - can't think of another carrier that's changed so drastically in a short space of time. Secondly what will happen to the bottom end of the market and the image perception? Whilst the battle is focused at the premium end of the market I think this is a free kick to Jetstar

[Jayden Laing]

Dragging this topic back up, here is the first E-170, VH-ZHA to go now flying in her Delta Connection colours.

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7133530&nseq=0

[Alexander.L]

Does anyone know when will be the last revenue flight for the E-170 for Virgin Australia?

[Oliver Gigacz]

Somewhere in early to mid 2012.

[Oliver Gigacz]

ZHD finished service with DJ on Sunday.

[Shayne G]

Just a quick question,

What routes/flights does the last E170 fly?

I know it does Sydney-Canberra flights in the afternoons on weekdays, but what other do they do in the mornings and on weekends?

[Oliver Gigacz]

Mel-syd-mel, mel-cbr-syd-cbr-mel.

[Brock Little]

Also CBR-OOL-TSV-OOL-CBR on some days

[Shayne G]

Thank you Oliver and Brock.

[Dave Parer]

Speak of the devil, VH-ZHF is currently in Townsville operating the OOL-TSV-CNS-TSV-OOL sector today.

[Mitchell S]

IS VH-ZHF the last E170 in VA fleet?

[Rowan McKeever]

Yeah Mitchell, sure is... ZHE left a couple of weeks ago from memory. Interesting to know how much longer ZHF is around for?

[Oliver Gigacz]

Yes, I think ZHE is in the MEL hangars.

[Shayne G]

according to http://yssyforum.net/board/showthread.php?t=7514&page=13

ZHE left last month and ZHF leaves Australia around 1st Jan .

[Rob R]

Yep ZHE gone and ZHF gone sometime in Jan 2012.

[Jarden S]

http://australianaviation.com.au/2011/12/five-more-atr-72s-for-virgin-australia/

[Radi K]

All E170 services for VA finished yesterday after ZHF landed in MEL.

Will fly out of the country in a few weeks.