Virgin Blue to train cadet pilots

[Greg McDonald]

From News.com.au:

AUSTRALIA'S second largest airline Virgin Blue will start training cadet pilots within the next year, a parliamentary inquiry into air safety has been told.

Previously, the airline had hired pilots from other carriers instead of training its own.

Virgin Blue's chief executive John Borghetti said the company would not rush into setting up the scheme, preferring to take "a good 12 months to get it right".

The airline's operations executive Sean Donohue said the proposed scheme was a long-term investment for the airline.

"With our pilot turnover of less than one per cent, it is not an urgency," he told a Senate hearing in Canberra today.

"Obviously it is to make sure we have a pipeline of skilled, trained pilots for the future."

Mr Borghetti said he placed a very high degree of importance on safety and being accessible to his company's pilots.

He told senators that he met with the chief pilots of Virgin Blue and V Australia on his first day as the airline's boss.

"The same day I sent an email to every captain in our group of airlines providing my work number, my email address and personal mobile number inviting their feedback and comments at any time," he said.

Virgin supported the immunity provisions for pilots reporting on safety matters in legislation before the Parliament.

"However, this would have to be subject to amendments that protect against the use of immunity for industrial purposes or protect against actions that are willfully reckless, negligent or non-compliant," Mr Borghetti said.

[Jakef]

Interesting, perhaps if their program isn't as criminal as the other in Australia (In regards to what they pay cadets on completion) I may consider doing this...

[NickN]

A lady I work with, her son has been offered to join the program. They are asking him to pay a HUGE amount up-front to be trained by VB. In excess of $120k to get in. They are re-mortgaging their home to get him in supposedly.

[Radi K]

Nick are you 100% sure?

Nothing has been announced either internally or externally. She might be getting mixed up with the JQ cadet program which is $120k.

I don't think you will see the VB program for quite awhile. That's if it ends up happening at all.

[Hugh Jarse]

Virgin don't have to rush into a cadet scheme, because they don't need to.

There is a steady stream of highly experienced pilots from the various regional airlines applying for positions at the moment.

I suspect the cadet scheme is purely a stop-gap measure in case this stream dries up (which I doubt) in the next 3-5 years.

[D Chan]

Interesting, perhaps if their program isn't as criminal as the other in Australia (In regards to what they pay cadets on completion) I may consider doing this...

I wouldn't bet my house on that.... why would they set one up if there's no financial gain for them?

[Jakef]

I wouldn't bet my house on that.... why would they set one up if there's no financial gain for them?

Most likely not, I'm not holding my breath.

[Matt_L]

A lady I work with, her son has been offered to join the program

Sorry mate, but not possible!

The Cadetship hasnt even been formalized yet let alone made public for applications, so I find that a bit hard to believe

[Mick F]

A lady I work with, her son has been offered to join the program. They are asking him to pay a HUGE amount up-front to be trained by VB. In excess of $120k to get in. They are re-mortgaging their home to get him in supposedly.

As Matt has said, the program hasn't even been formalised or anything, so it's not possible to even apply yet.

And as for my bolding, whatever happened to kids earning their own money to go do things? And what is wrong with just going to a flying school, getting a licence, then going up north to fly around in General Aviation for a few years first? It's a hell of a lot cheaper and it gives you some life experience (not to mention aviation experience) before you get let loose into an airline.

Everybody expects the top jobs to be handed to them on platters these days without doing any bloody work to get there!

Mick

[Russell D]

I agree with Mick about the kids saving up money, but then again, $120K is pretty well out of range of what a kid can save. And if they did probably try to save that amount from working full-time straight out of high school, it would probably take them a good 4-5 years minimum to save up such an amount. That would mean they would already be around about 23y.o. by the time they even start their flying training (or in this case, a cadet program).

And what is wrong with just going to a flying school, getting a licence, then going up north to fly around in General Aviation for a few years first? It's a hell of a lot cheaper and it gives you some life experience (not to mention aviation experience) before you get let loose into an airline.

Everybody expects the top jobs to be handed to them on platters these days without doing any bloody work to get there!

I agree once again, and the life experience and aviation experience can make a world of a difference in making someone a better pilot especially when faced with difficult situations like Captain Richard Champion de Crespigny.

But there's quite a lot of social (and family) pressure these days that when you finish high school, you need to get into a stable career as quickly as possible. For example, I found myself caught in a discussion with some uni friends just the other day, and it was almost unanimous that one should be fully established in their career, married, and about to have a family before you turn 30 years old. Personally, I find that a bit unrealistic, but that's just the word on the street.

So I guess that might explain why people find cadet programs attractive, since you could spend many years in GA with no guarantees of getting into the major airlines.

But yes, personally I believe cadet programs aren't worth the invaluable experience gained going through the GA pathway. Then again, cadet programs seem to be becoming all to common in aviation worldwide.

Cheers

[Gareth Forwood]

I know it's slightly off the original topic, but I am 24 years old and don't think I've quite earned $120k in my life so far, let alone saved that much. When I was in Yr 12 I was considering the various options for flight training and at the time all were too expensive to afford (my parents briefly considered re-mortgaging the house but I wasn't willing to let them do that).

I think UNSW's program may now be payable completely though HELP/HECS, which essentially provides an interest free (well, indexed only to inflation) loan. That's probably a better way to go about it if money's an issue.

[Mick F]

$120K might be a lot to save, but what about loans?

And secondly, if you don't do a cadetship, it's a LOT cheaper!

Mick

[Jakef]

I know it's slightly off the original topic, but I am 24 years old and don't think I've quite earned $120k in my life so far, let alone saved that much. When I was in Yr 12 I was considering the various options for flight training and at the time all were too expensive to afford (my parents briefly considered re-mortgaging the house but I wasn't willing to let them do that).

I think UNSW's program may now be payable completely though HELP/HECS, which essentially provides an interest free (well, indexed only to inflation) loan. That's probably a better way to go about it if money's an issue.

UNSW's flying stream of Bachelor of Aviation is only through HECS for the actual course fee, they flying training is about 100k and payable in 7 installments. I got an info pack for it a week or so ago and all the info is in there.

[Owen H]

Swinburne University do a degree program where FEE HELP (or whatever they're calling it this week) is available for the flying component upto just over 80k from memory.

There is no doubt that the cadet route is one that the airlines are pushing. With Jetstar, Rex, Sharp, QLink running them, and Virgin and Tiger talking about it, it seems to be the way the industry is going.

There is no way that the GA industry will be able to provide, medium term, the number of pilots that will be required in Australia, and despite many nay-sayers there is really no evidence that a cadet pilot is not of equal quality to a "GA" pilot throughout the world.

Cadet progams are not new, and have been well accepted throughout the world. The MPL is another issue, and with the work that ICAO and most regulators are doing on it (not CASA however) it will become more and more popular.

[Mick F]

Of all the cadet programs out there, the Qantas program is about the only one which I thought was sensible, value for money. Unfortunately they don't appear to have run it over the last couple of years. Maybe something to do with a certain other airlines cadet sha... I mean scheme........? :cool:

I'd be a bit more supportive of "other" airlines cadetships if they weren't there to rip off cadets, place them on seperate agreements to the rest of the pilot body and to ensure airline execs received bonuses because of the 'success' of the cadet sha... ah there I go again, scheme.

For those who aren't aware, there is currently a Senate Inquiry going on concerning pilot training and airline safety standards (among many other things!) in Australia. While many will argue the bias that Pprune provides with such a topic, there is a thread there concerning the Senate Inquiry that is well worth a read. Contains links to many reports by Plane Talking's Ben Sandilands. He seems like he's the only journo to have his finger on the pulse so to speak, about the going's on of the Senate Inquiry.

I only have a bit over 8 years of experience in the aviation industry and all of that has been in General Aviation, so I can only provide a point of view from my experience over those years, but I (and also shared by many others in the industry) am growing more and more concerned about the number of young people who are so tunnel visioned on getting an airline job, that they don't explore all possibilities and avenues that are available to them. In particular, training and the range of jobs available to them once they are qualified.

One of the major impacts this will have on the industry in the long term is the lack of pilots coming through the ranks to keep this very vital part of the Australian Aviation Industry going. I don't think people understand how important GA is to Australia, which can have major implications later on.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is for those who are thinking of entering the industry, DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!!!

Mick

[Jakef]

Part of the reason I have decided not to actively pursue cadet programs is that they put cadets on a different agreement and well below standard wage. I also have heard rumours that in most cadetships a cadet won't get allocated that many flying hours under their employment. I have decided the only cadetship I will apply for is the Cathay Pacific one, mainly because they pay for your training and then put you on the same sub-standard wage, which is marginally better I suppose.

[Russell D]

Mick F wrote:
$120K might be a lot to save, but what about loans?
And secondly, if you don't do a cadetship, it's a LOT cheaper!
Correct. But considering couples are struggling to afford a home loan and live out the "great Aussie dream of owning your own house", $120K for a newly fledged school-lever very much seems like trying to buy a house. I.e., it can be quite daunting to know you have a big loan + interest to pay off as a young adolescent, especially when there is no guarantee that you will indeed achieve your goal/dream of making it into an airline or high-grade GA pilot career.


Owen H wrote:
There is no doubt that the cadet route is one that the airlines are pushing. With Jetstar, Rex, Sharp, QLink running them, and Virgin and Tiger talking about it, it seems to be the way the industry is going.
There is no way that the GA industry will be able to provide, medium term, the number of pilots that will be required in Australia, and despite many nay-sayers there is really no evidence that a cadet pilot is not of equal quality to a "GA" pilot throughout the world.
Once again all true, but I just get the feeling that the airlines are slowly working to a system where the majority or all of their intakes will only come from cadet programs, resulting in any hope for people in GA looking for career progression being dashed.

Mick F wrote:
I'd be a bit more supportive of "other" airlines cadetships if they weren't there to rip off cadets, place them on seperate agreements to the rest of the pilot body and to ensure airline execs received bonuses because of the 'success' of the cadet sha... ah there I go again, scheme.
And that in itself is my main concern with these cadet programs. I get the feeling the airlines seem to love the idea that cadet pilots cannot really bargain much for (what I would call fair) higher pay because they don't have the hours experience to demand a higher income. E.g. if someone from GA with say 3000+ hours rocks up and tries to negotiate a certain entry-level pay with an airline, the airline could easy turn around and say "fine, we'll just get a cadet pilot instead at a lower wage". Such a scenario is sad not only for the GA pilot, but the cadet pilot as well, and the only real winner is the airline and its executives.

Mick F wrote:
...I (and also shared by many others in the industry) am growing more and more concerned about the number of young people who are so tunnel visioned on getting an airline job, that they don't explore all possibilities and avenues that are available to them. In particular, training and the range of jobs available to them once they are qualified.
That is a fair statement, and I would be kidding myself if I said I wasn't one of those young people only think aviation = airline or military. If it wasn't for this message board and me beginning my flight training, I would have never really realised that GA even existed. But having said that, I know a lot of senior instructors and other pilots (in or still trying to get into GA) who have/are trying to get into a major airline but have found themselves knocked back repeatedly despite being well qualified (at least in terms of hours and ratings etc). So its not surprise that for young up-and-coming pilots, a cadet program seems the easiest and best way to get in.

Anyway, that's just my views of all the issues surrounding cadet programs and career progression in the industry itself, but I am sure there are plenty of people on here much more knowledgeable and better informed on these issues than me. So I'm quite happy to just enjoy flying for recreational purposes for now.;)

[Jakef]

And that in itself is my main concern with these cadet programs. I get the feeling the airlines seem to love the idea that cadet pilots cannot really bargain much for (what I would call fair) higher pay because they don't have the hours experience to demand a higher income. E.g. if someone from GA with say 3000+ hours rocks up and tries to negotiate a certain entry-level pay with an airline, the airline could easy turn around and say "fine, we'll just get a cadet pilot instead at a lower wage". Such a scenario is sad not only for the GA pilot, but the cadet pilot as well, and the only real winner is the airline and its executives.


Capitalism in it's finest form right there :(

[NickN]

I'll get further details when I see her this week. He works for VB and from everything I was told this opportunity is through VB. He was given a choice of doing it at Bankstown or Melbourne (not sure which Melbourne airport was only told Melbourne).

[Rob R]

JB at the senate inquiry on the 18th of March said the cadet program will start in early 2012 and they still have many details to sort out. There has been nothing released by the company since then, so I can’t see how someone could be offered a course and be given a price for the program.

[NickN]

After speaking to my friend today it appears this offer is preliminary and on the basis that the program gets up and running, she says he was told the end of this year. I suppose they are hunting staff internally to try and shore up some numbers or assess possible internal interest?

[Rob R]

Every EOI for positions at Virgin Blue is posted weekly on the internal intranet. Nothing has been posted about the Cadet Program. So I would say it's more like crew/staff talk rather than any preliminary offer internally to staff.

[Hugh Jarse]

Agree with Rob R. I've seen nothing either in the past few weeks. I took JB to Canberra last week, and we chatted about a lot of things, including the cadet scheme.

It's very early days yet re the cadet scheme, with a long way to go before anything's set in concrete. (That's from the horse's mouth).

Crew room banter, IMO.:D

[NickN]

Will keep you posted if I hear more. Can only pass on what I hear.

[Radi K]

JB comments in a speech this week

Last month I announced that we will be establishing a cadet program for pilots in conjunction with one of Australia’s most successful regional airlines, Skywest.