Qantas boss to outline big international shake-up

[Malcolm Parker]

22 JUN: Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce will outline major changes to international operations in a luncheon speech to the National Press Club in Canberra today, Fairfax media reports this morning.

Fairfax speculates that the changes will include abandoning some routes and having others taken over by Jetstar.

There’s also likely to be greater use of alliance partners.

Mr Joyce on several occasion recently has made it clear that the international division is losing money and the Fairfax report puts the figure at $200m a year.

Today’s speech, which is scheduled to be broadcast on ABC-TV at 12.30pm, could be interesting in more ways than one.

Fairfax says that the airline’s industrial arch-enemy, the Transport Workers Union, is believed to have booked a table at the lunch.

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I thought as an airline to survive it should expand and not contract. I guess it won't be too long and Qantas wil be taken over as the larget interntional airline even out of Sydney - what a joke that would be!!

[Ash W]

I thought as an airline to survive it should expand and not contract. I guess it won't be too long and Qantas wil be taken over as the larget interntional airline even out of Sydney - what a joke that would be!!

To survive they need to make money! So no point expanding or continuing routes that could/are loosing money.

[Guy W]

I am curious to see if QF will do anything to their PVG and NRT services. It seems to me that these two routes hardly get a decent loading. I am also keen to find out if they will touch their DFW route.

[Joe Frampton]

Well if Royal Brunei has just cut all routes down under except MEL then nothing from Qantas will surprise me :eek:

[Montague S]

announcement on August 24th, what a contemptuous ****.

be interesting to see how long share-holders stick with Joyce.

[Ash W]

What do you want him to do Montague? You know there are rules that CEO's have to play by to manage the stock market and the ASX in general, Qantas afterall is a publicly listed company, not the state owned benevolent society some think or wish Qantas to be. Indeed even Virgin did the same, by announcing an outline of their basic plan a few months before, along with a date for all when will be revealed.

I personally trust that he will do what NEEDS/MUST to be done and I think for the time being at least the board is happy they have someone who will make and do the hard decisions to get the company re-invigorated. It is just a pity that about all that is left is workforce reform hence all this mud slinging and character assassination of Joyce in particular. It wouldn't matter who was at the helm, even Borghetti, the message and realities would be the same.

[Raymond Rowe]

Maybe a massive colour change to silver.It was said when Joyce went over he was there for alternative reasons:D

[Ash W]

Maybe that is exactly what is needed to keep the company alive and the majority of the Australian workforce in jobs!

I do wonder how a silver livery with an orange kangaroo on the tail would look?

[Montague S]

What do you want him to do Montague? You know there are rules that CEO's have to play by to manage the stock market and the ASX in general, Qantas afterall is a publicly listed company, not the state owned benevolent society some think or wish Qantas to be. Indeed even Virgin did the same, by announcing an outline of their basic plan a few months before, along with a date for all when will be revealed.

I personally trust that he will do what NEEDS/MUST to be done and I think for the time being at least the board is happy they have someone who will make and do the hard decisions to get the company re-invigorated. It is just a pity that about all that is left is workforce reform hence all this mud slinging and character assassination of Joyce in particular. It wouldn't matter who was at the helm, even Borghetti, the message and realities would be the same.

After reading all your nonsense it appears as plain as day to me that you have no idea if the significance of August 24th.

Thanks for telling me what I already knew.

[Ash W]

Please do tell what is significant about August 24, other than the fact that is the day of the Qantas announces their final year results. Though let me guess that was also the date Jetstar was first announced?

PS you, or any others for that matter have not actually said what they would do if they were Joyce to turn Qantas around, or are many in denial thinking $500m is a good profit and the company is running along fine and not in danger of total collapse?

[Owen H]

Two quotes:

“The combination of our two domestic flying brands, Qantas and Jetstar, together with Jetstar International, Qantas Frequent Flyer and Qantas Freight, has enabled us to withstand a number of major events affecting our performance. On a combined basis, these businesses are profitable and are returning in excess of their cost of capital.

“In FY11, Qantas International is forecast to generate a loss before interest and tax of approximately $200 million, on invested capital of over $5 billion, with a weaker result expected next year"

Could someone please explain to me why all of the first named parts of the business are profitable on a COMBINED basis, and yet International is singled out?

International could have been combined in that first list, as, combined, they are all profitable!

So that begs the question - which of those first named areas - Q domestic, J domestic, J international, Freight and FF, are NOT profitable, and WHY is it that only Q International is being singled out? Could it actually be that one of the hallowed parts of the company, which is supposed to be the model of efficiency, is actually not making money?

[Montague S]

The Press Club speech can be viewed here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvmC0jqu3Y8&feature=player_embedded#at=3481).

I watch NPC often and I have never seen anyone receive applause during their speech, odd that Joyce was applauded when making certain remarks...or just fishy?

[Dave Dale]

I watch NPC often and I have never seen anyone receive applause during their speech, odd that Joyce was applauded when making certain remarks...or just fishy?

I thought something was up too, especially since he had some of his associates in the room. Perhaps they were on cue (or on:Q)...

[Matt_L]

A few points of interest I will refer to below.

Firstly a poignant quote from 2008 Alan Joyce said after becoming QF CEO 'the rumour going around is that we are going to try and make Qantas into a low cost carrier. That would absolutely be the wrong thing to do' The Australian newspaper . How times have changed!

Secondly, Joyce included Jetstar Asia I'n his list of successful arms of the company. Refer here http://m.smh.com.au/business/budget-airline-reverses-losses-20110206-1aid3.html JQ Asia have Never made a substantial profit and indeed suffered more losses then profit I'n what is a cutthroat Market.

Thirdly, he alludes to the fact QF Intl cost base is so much higher then their competitors. Why's this? Crew pay makes up a very small proportion
Of this cost basis . Maybe poor management is at play given Cathay ek and most other major top airlines seem to have it sorted.

It shocks me he sees the Intl arm as such a risk with 3 billion I'n the bank. His fleeting reference to Ansett i found uncalled for and pretty inappropriate and the whole speech seemed like a justification for jetstar international to go fully global Ie pvg or other china base and reduction I'n Qf services (august 24 announcement )

[Montague S]

Please do tell what is significant about August 24, other than the fact that is the day of the Qantas announces their final year results. Though let me guess that was also the date Jetstar was first announced?

PS you, or any others for that matter have not actually said what they would do if they were Joyce to turn Qantas around, or are many in denial thinking $500m is a good profit and the company is running along fine and not in danger of total collapse?

google is your friend...try 1989 and pilots dispute.

the Co isn't running along fine, and the problem is the people running the company...this is the same CEO that jumps on a QF flight to an IATA meeting in Singapore and trashes the brand whilst giving his speech, then gets on a QF flight and heads back home.

not sure, but from where I sit he deliberately trashes the international arm at any chance he can get...and I suspect that he does it so that Australian's will feel less aggrieved when he finally starts dumping the international arm in some part of Asia.

[Andrew P]

Google takes me to this page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Australian_pilots'_dispute

cant see anything there about a date of the 28th

but what has that to do with QF,as Qantas was not part of the pilots strike (from memory)

ps don't forget under ASX rules QF must report its Preliminary final reports by 31 August each year

[Montague S]

^ try reading the dates correctly...but here you are.

http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/pd89_appendices.htm#APPENDIX%209

[Ash W]

Andrew it is all part of the conspiracy theory, which is just a smoke screen for not facing reality.

[Andrew P]

agree, the thought that someone in QF would set a results announcement date, which by the way is date that would have been pencilled in over 2 years ago, and locked in over a year ago, to coincide to an event back in 1989 is crazy

[Bernie P]

Perhaps, we will get a slow filter of information similar to that of DJ?

QANTAS Airways Ltd has announced a new domestic fare structure it says is simpler, more flexible and offers further frequent flyer benefits.
The main changes are a reduction in the previous four economy fare levels to three - Red eDeal, Flexi Saver and Fully Flexible - and better frequent flyer benefits for its cheaper fares.

The changes apply across the airline group's mainline and regional networks and come into effect for tickets booked from July 7.

Qantas said customer feedback helped shape the changes.

"Regardless of which fare type you book for Qantas domestic travel, we offer a meal or refreshment, inflight entertainment (except on QantasLink services) and a checked baggage allowance of one piece of luggage up to 23 kilograms," Qantas spokesman Rob Gurney said today.

Qantas says the new domestic fare levels are:

* Red eDeal - offering low year-round fares;

* Flexi Saver - offering a greater range of flexibility and choice;

* Fully Flexible - offering complete flexibility with full a refund option; and

* Business - full premium, with additional baggage allowances, Neil Perry designed menus, and dedicated lounges in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne and Canberra.

Qantas said enhancements had also been made to its frequent flyer program, which has 7.8 million members.

"From 7 July 2011, all Qantas domestic economy fares, now including Red eDeals, will be eligible for domestic flight upgrade awards to business using Qantas Frequent Flyer points, where available," Frequent Flyer chief executive Simon Hickey said.

"In addition, all flexible domestic fares will be classed as economy, resulting in improved status credit earn and upgrade rates for members on more fares."

Qantas yesterday said it expected full year earnings to rise to at least half a billion dollars on its profitable domestic business, while its international business is tipped to make a $200 million before-tax loss.

The Flying Kangaroo says it will achieve its best result since the global financial crisis on the strength of its domestic, freight, low-cost carrier Jetstar and frequent flyer businesses.

news.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/new-domestic-fare-structure-for-qantas/story-e6frfkur-1226080645653)

[Justin L]

Talk in this Age article (http://www.theage.com.au/business/jetstar-panasia-plan-has-flights-to-beijing-20110712-1hc5f.html) of JQ or 3K flying to Beijing and JQ replacing QF to BKK, with EZE to be scrapped.

[Danfeng Qian]

I'm wondering how Jetstar to compete against Chinese airlines.
Low price? Air China offers $850 including tax return for Sydney/Melbourne to Beijing, and China Southern's quote is $800 via Guangzhou.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

I agree Danfeng, might have an advantage if it is direct though. Qantas tried it but didn't last long (anybody know when the QF135 stopped?)

[Oliver Gigacz]

Flight is a continuation of JQ7/8.

[Scott S]

Danfeng, both CA and CZ fares are seasonal fare targeting tough period which often seen during this time of the year.

Peter, QF191/QF192 (SYD/PEK/SYD) services were suspended in Apr 09. I think QF135/QF136 were the flight numbers used for SYD/SHA/PEK/SHA/SYD back in late 90's.

[Danfeng Qian]

Agreed.
But we always can get around $900 return tickets for CA, CZ & MU except for Christmas and Easter from travel agents.

[Lukas M]

The inbound is one hell of a trip

PEK-SIN 0250-0930
SIN-MEL 2050-0655

25hrs! No thanks :eek:

[Sarah C]

That is quite a stopover but luckily SIN has plenty of action for spotters :)

[Michael Cleary]

QF135/136 were the flight nos used for SYD-TPE-SYD - which ceased many years ago.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

Thanks Scott and Michael. I knew they did try it before. As already mentioned though the Chinese travellers are very loyal to their airlines but of course there isn't that much competition (between the two cities). All QF do is a daily Shanghai service from Sydney AFIK.

[lloyd fox]

I also know that flight went thru BNE as well as Austasia 135/136 when it was Australia-Asia airlines.

[Beau Chenery]

My thoughts:

A new airline called Qantas Asia will be announced on August 24th (approximate anniversary of the pilots strike back in '89)

Qantas will move all their long haul operations and base them out of Singapore/Hong Kong/Bangkok and thus require their pilots to resign contracts on much lower salaries than what they are currently on.

I personally do not think they have been over paid at all. My personal opinion is that they are under paid at the moment. When I worked for a company my salary increased relative to inflation how QF pilots didn't. To me that is disgusting.

Alan Joyce says in not so many words - I like the pilots but I don't like the unions. ABC Interview (http://http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3228180.htm)

Thought - The union is made up of pilots.

Why would Alan Joyce give a f#$% about an Australian carrier he is Irish. He doesn't give two hoots. Like Sol from Telstra, he didn't give two *****s about Telstra, left it in a piece of crap state for someone else to clean up. Thankfully its happening now.

It's foul what is happening and it's a story that requires some proper journalism and media coverage at the highest levels from both sides of the fence not just the Qantas spin from HQ.

Beau

[Ash W]

I think your prediction is well off the mark. Qantas will not set-up an offshore operation to replace the Australian one and force staff to resign and apply for work in the offshore entity. It will however attempt to set-up one and channel expansion through this entity. This 'airline' will either be called Qantas or Jetstar. My prediction is this may well be out of Singapore or Kuala Lumpur, it won't be Hong Kong or Bangkok though.

As for the amount of money staff are paid, at the end of the day weather any staff are are over or underpaid is actually irrelevant. The bottom line is the cost of staff relative to the amount of income the airline receives for it's services, in such a competitive international environment is too high. Qantas, or any business CANNOT survive if it isn't making money to cover their costs, and this is what is happening international where to remain competitive Qantas must charge less than it costs to operate. This is clearly not sustainable.

As for pay going up at the rate of inflation, no employee anywhere should expect this, but most of us do and do get it. But you know what all that does is increases inflation so it disappears as easy as it comes. Over the past 10 years Australian incomes have gone up significantly, coupled with tax cuts, which has lead to the massive increases we see in the cost of living. This is one of the many reasons why Qantas is now so unprofitable on international routes, where it competes with an international cost base, but domestically, where the cost base is the same it does ok.

Back in the early 1990's Paul Keating described the recession that was going on at the time as 'the recession that Australia had to have", sadly a recession of this order is what we need in this country to bring costs back into a sustainable position. But no politician will ever allow that to happen because it would cause direct hurt, but the way things are going there is going to be hurt anyway. The question is do we need one where it can be controlled or one where the market controls it?

As for Joyce, the fact he is Irish is irrelevant. He is there to do a job and is trying to do it. If Borghetthi got the top job at Qantas you could bet your bottom dollar that he too would be trying to make similar changes. Indeed Borghetthi was involved up to his eye***** with the creation of Jetstar which was the start of the push to reduce costs, Joyce is just continuing what Dixon, Borghetti and co started.

PS mods, why is the word b a l l s (as in eye b a l l s) stared out?

[Jack Melon]

1. Qantasia
2. Qantas, A Jetstar Group Airline

[Justin L]

The SMH makes the following comments on likely QF international route cuts:

LAX-JFK: Cancel - rely on AA alliance
AKL-LAX: Transfer to JQ
SYD-HNL: Under consideration for cancellation
SIN-BOM: Under consideration for cancellation
SYD-EZE: Under consideration for cancellation
SYD-JNB: Keep

Full article here (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-to-ground-some-us-flights-20110724-1hvc9.html).

[James R]

AKL-LAX has been long mooted for JQ as they have NZ-based staff don't they? Either that or they'll be ops by SIN-based staff doing SIN-AKL-LAX and return.

Wouldn't be surprised to see QF dropping off EZE, HNL and BOM as per the SMH article, perhaps BKK too if they can feed more LHR traffic through other ports.

How long until all the JQ aircraft are then repainted in QF colours, staffed by pilots and crew on much lower wages with less conditions?

[Will H]

I was always under the impression LAX-JFK was great for cargo. Maybe not anymore?

Keeping JNB is a no-brainer.

[Anthony T]

How long until all the JQ aircraft are then repainted in QF colours, staffed by pilots and crew on much lower wages with less conditions?


Not long to wait now, QANTAS group management has lost patience with the unions at QF mainline and will do their own thing, if the mainline employees want to come along for the ride, all well and good, if not they will have to find another airline to work for. :(

[Andrew Johnson]

I was always under the impression LAX-JFK was great for cargo. Maybe not anymore?

Keeping JNB is a no-brainer.
So guess this frees up an A330 ?

Can Qantas/Jetstar A330's operate AKL/LAX & LAX/AKL without weight restriction ?

[Andrew Johnson]

Obviously HNL will go. Can;t work out why it's lasted so long.

The big question is how long will QF INT last & how soon QF will only be BNE, SYD, MEL, CBR & PER & rest will be given to JQ.

[Stefan Perkas]

how soon QF will only be BNE, SYD, MEL, CBR & PER & rest will be given to JQ.
What about ADL in that list? They wouldn't drop all routes from ADL.

[Ryan K]

Similalry, what about HBA? Would this go to QLink or JQ? The 6am 737 service to MEL is always pretty full when I'm on it. If this went to JQ, they would have to start paying for crew to stay overnight as there is no JQ base in HBA anymore. The pollies would be very peeved if QF mainline pulled out of HBA. DJ would love it.

[Beau Chenery]

From what I'm hearing most of the Domestic sector will be relatively ok. It's the International pilots that are going to be screwed over..

[Zac M]

how soon QF will only be BNE, SYD, MEL, CBR & PER & rest will be given to JQ.
This is wrong on so many levels....

[Bernie P]

A 'sign of the times' perhaps - no longer paying any Royalties..???

QANTAS has begun replacing its "cringe-worthy" in-flight safety video that stars John Travolta.
Travolta, who owns a vintage Qantas Boeing 707-138B jet, starred in a controversial three-minute demonstration video played before take-off on every domestic and long-haul Qantas flights since earlier this year.

Fast forward five months and the video is disappearing from in-flight sceens. The Saturday Night Fever and Grease star is thought to be a casualty of an ongoing industrial dispute between Qantas and the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA).

The airline has confirmed it is replacing the Travolta video but insists it was only a "temporary feature". However, the union says there is another motive at play, with the video's message similar to their own.

In the video Travolta, who is also a Qantas ambassador, says: "There's no one I'd rather have at the controls than a Qantas pilot".

This is the same motto that the AIPA uses in its campaign against Qantas sourcing pilots from overseas... and paying them less.

"The seemingly common-sense message has now earned the Hollywood star the sack from the Qantas in-flight video," an AIPA spokesperson said.

"With Qantas management under Alan Joyce preparing to announce moves to replace Australian Qantas pilots with outsourced and offshore alternatives on August 24, Travolta’s message has been deemed inappropriate for the times."

When the safety video was released earlier this year there was outrage about the use of Travolta in the clip.

Cabin crew argued that a "real pilot" like Captain Richard de Crespigny, credited with saving 466 lives on a crippled flight from Singapore, should deliver the message.

The video opens with Travolta, named the airline's ambassador in 2010, dressed in a pilot's uniform and hat, announcing, "This is your captain speaking - well, maybe not today.

"But I can guarantee that the guys on the flight deck and the greater team care just as much about aircraft safety as I do.

"I've been flying over 40 years as a pilot and I can tell you, there's no one I'd rather have at the controls than a Qantas pilot," he added.

"Who better than the genuine aviation professionals who saved QF32?," said one Qantas staff member.

One Qantas flight attendant, who did not wish to be named, described the video as "corny" and "tacky."

Source: News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/not-staying-alive-qantas-dumps-john-travolta-in-flight-safety-video/story-e6frfkur-1226107371916#ixzz1TviXIk1p)

[Grahame Hutchison]

When I returned from Cairns last Friday with QF, they played the Travolta Safety Video as usual, however when we landed in Sydney and were taxiing to the terminal, the Captain came on with an announcement outlining the planned changes by Qantas. The Captain's message was right to the point, "Qantas Pilots in Qantas aircraft", and asked everyone to support the pilot's cause.

All that was missing was the final, "This announcement by Qaqntas pilots, was written and spoken by" .....

The QF pilots have a great platform to get their message across to the travelling public, so that they understand what is going on.

[Matt_L]

qantasanswers.com.au
All Qantas-operated flights are flown by Qantas pilots.

This includes every Qantas domestic flight and every Qantas international flight.

Union claims to the contrary are incorrect and misleading.


Why do we tolerate blatant lies?
I can assure you New Zealand ops for example aren't, they are flown by Jetconnect New Zealand pilots yet under a QF flight number.

I suspect this August 24 announcement will have ALOT to do with JQ taking over a tonne of QF 'operated' flights but with crews from a multitude of sourcing agencies/companies such as jetconnect or indeed Jq themselves.

If only the public actually knew....

[Andrew P]

and Matt what is the lie, i cant see it

ps if it is to do with Jetconnect, it isa Qantas group company, so it cant be that

[Donald H]

Well, if you go to the Qantas website & lookup a flight to AKL for instance, then it says "This flight operated by Jetconnect for Qantas".

Seems blatant enough to me ;-).

[Matt_L]

Andrew,

So a Jconnect pilot is Qf trained and an Australian crew on fair work conditions. No!

Foreign crew less pay etc pretty simple to see - they might be getting paid off 'Qantas' checkbook but they are Not Qantas pilots , the difference is a rather large one.

[Montague S]

could start with working on QF8...joke of a service this is.

[Ash W]

Actually Andrew is right. If you read what Qantas has said they too are TECHNICALLY right, though yes their choice of wording, especially to the uninitiated is a tad miss leading, just like the rhetoric from the other side too.

In particular the bit that says "All Qantas-operated flights are flown by Qantas pilots." Jetconnect flights are not Qantas operated, so the fact that Kiwi's fly the aircraft is irrelevant as the flight isn't Qantas operated.

[Matt_L]

Ash,

To be fair for all intents and purposes average Joe on a QF flight number to nz thinks it's a Qantas flight when it is not nor flown by QF crew. Technicalities on wording are irrelevant- it is simple really you expect to fly Qantas when it's a qantas livery , flt number etc and you aren't - most pax would have no idea about tiny disclaimers on the website . That's my point..

[Donald H]

It doesn't walk like a kangaroo.
It doesn't TALK like a kangaroo.
Therefore it isn't a kangaroo.

Qantas...the flightless bird :-p.

[Ash W]

So Matt, based on that argument I take it you also have a problem getting on a turbo prop Qantas aircraft to find that it is operated by Sunstate or Eastern, or you get on a 717 operated by National Jet/Cobham? None of these airlines have real Qantas pilots or crew but fly aircraft in Qantas livery with Qantas flight numbers. The same will apply soon to Virgin with the ATR services being operated by non Virgin crew.

In reality though when it comes to structure and ownership Jetconnect is exactly the same as Eastern and Sunstate in so much as they are 100% Qantas owned companies, who employ and train their own staff but on separate conditions to Qantas mainline. So really they, including the NZ based Jetconnect staff are really Qantas.

NJS/Cobham are different though in so much as Qantas does not have any interest in the company and just contract them to fly aircraft supplied by Qantas. In fact if anyone has any issue with aircraft not being operated by Qantas pilots etc then these services are the ones that should be focused on not Jetconnect. Unless of course if the real issue here is not weather an aircraft is being operated by a Qantas pilot, but weather the aircraft is being operated by non Australian's. My gut feeling is the issue is the latter.

[Matt_L]

Of course it's the local jobs which is part of it...

Sure airlines like Cathay employ foreign pilots- if you look at why though in the last few years recruitment has opened up for foreign cadets it was because they were for the most part desperate for crew with numerous orders. A new COS came out circa 2009 ish and the foreigners /locals hired from then are on same terms.

Australia has a supply of pilots which does not require the hiring of foreigners for local positions- so the only reason it is being done can be narrowed down to the cost gains from it. Njs/qlink are all still Australian crew , as Borghetti says an airline with spirit of Australia on it's fuselage should be Australian crew , just like we should protect our other domestically producing industries...

[Ash W]

If it is the point then why are the unions arguing against non Qantas staff flying rather than just coming out and saying their objection is to foreigners flying? As I have shown non Qantas, Australian staff already fly Qantas aircraft. As for having plenty of Australian pilots, I kinda thought we were in a pilot shortage at the moment, but even if we did have plenty could Qantas afford to employ them on the same pay and conditions as the existing mainline/international pilots?

As for Borghetti, when did he say this? Quite an interesting thing to say especially when you consider he was heavily involved in the creation of Jetstar. So if this is a recent comment then he has changed his tune a little.

[Andrew M]

Latest rumour is that Jetstar is to get 2 x 744's.....

Given the 787 delays and Qantas cuts to international services, this is likely to happen I feel.

Hello SFO J* :eek:

[Andrew Johnson]

qantasanswers.com.au


Why do we tolerate blatant lies?
I can assure you New Zealand ops for example aren't, they are flown by Jetconnect New Zealand pilots yet under a QF flight number.

I suspect this August 24 announcement will have ALOT to do with JQ taking over a tonne of QF 'operated' flights but with crews from a multitude of sourcing agencies/companies such as jetconnect or indeed Jq themselves.

If only the public actually knew....
Which QF services will become JQ apart from HNL do you think ?

[Justin L]

Syd/bne-mnl, syd-cgk, adl-sin?

[Matt_L]

Ash,

Australian Aviation July Issue- grab it- excellent interview with JB.

Andrew- agree with Justin, but alot more then those routes- potentially more Asian routes- even nz us services and alot of domestics excl capital city milk runs.

[Andrew M]

Qantas of the future:

MEL-SYD-BNE-PER
MEL-SYD-LAX
MEL-SYD-LHR

Sad times, but times are changing. I don't blame QF for this, they have a premium product (yes we know it has shortfalls) but people want to fly Tiger and Jetstar.

People want to pay a bus fare for an airfare, and are happy to have cheap labour to support these cheap prices

[Jacob P]

Just hope that with this whole pilot union tension QF does not cave in and give them the Qantas Club access they want. I mean it will make an already overcrowded lounge even worse! Why don't we just give the poor dears Charimans lounge access, seems to be plenty of room there and maybe they might learn a thing or two there from a few business execs about offshoring and its necessity to ensure the long term survival of a company particulalrly one as volatile as an airline. Probably going to get blasted here but it is a valid point why should crew be given lounge access espcially when travelling on discounted staff tickets. Airline lounges should only be reserved for an airlines customers that are most loyal or pay a premium to fly.

[Lee G]

I agree with your point Jacob ... it's just it comes over like a class elitist segregation sounding opinion. :(

"Airline lounges should only be reserved for an airlines customers that are most loyal or pay a premium to fly. " - Pay a premium, yes - Loyalty, No ... Loyalty doesn't pay the bills if all you're spending to fly on the airline is $30 per week for a cheapie airfare.

[Jason Carruthers]

I think Qantas is far more likely to pull out of Sydney-Melbourne/Brisbane before they start touching the likes of Karratha/Mount Isa/Newman/Kalgoorlie

Looking at their domestic network there isn't much left to cut that hasn't already been handed over. Cairns is the obvious candidate to give away but even then Qantas would probably want to keep a daily flight or two to Brisbane for premium, high end leisure and govenment travellers. Everything else either has high volume premium travellers (SYD/MEL), serves FIFO miners (KGI/ISA), government travel (CBR) or either monopolised or has very little competition (DRW/ASP)

[Andrew M]

Jason - You can't Jetstar mining routes :)

[Jason Carruthers]

And that was exactly the point of my previous post

[Todd Hendry]

Just hope that with this whole pilot union tension QF does not cave in and give them the Qantas Club access they want. I mean it will make an already overcrowded lounge even worse! Why don't we just give the poor dears Charimans lounge access, seems to be plenty of room there and maybe they might learn a thing or two there from a few business execs about offshoring and its necessity to ensure the long term survival of a company particulalrly one as volatile as an airline. Probably going to get blasted here but it is a valid point why should crew be given lounge access espcially when travelling on discounted staff tickets. Airline lounges should only be reserved for an airlines customers that are most loyal or pay a premium to fly.
Jacob,
If your theory is correct about offshoring to keep an Australian company afloat then god help Australia.
What do you do? Bet I can find someone who will do it cheaper in another country.
So there instantly you've lost your job. The government has lost tax, both income and from the company.
When you are old and didn't have a job ( because it was off shored) who is going to pay for your care?
Government has no money. You have no super or cash saved. Because of no job.
So I see massive mistakes in this.
Why can't Aussies compete?
We are the best in the world in a lot of things.
Why offshore them?
Todd.

[Jacob P]

Hi Todd,

In relation to your comment about my job,
Doubt the government would risk offshoring their own jobs!
Also when i'm old and no longer employed I will have enough fund saved from sound financial planning that I won't have to bruden the government with the cost of my healthcare. I'm not againjst aussie competition its just that from what I can see there is a lot of talk about aussies doing this and that but at the end of the day nothing ever happens. Would love to know what we are so good at here apart from exporting resources and a few tourists that come around. When you think about it there really is not that much here and nothing ever happens becasue the moment someone comes up with an idea for something it is immediatly "shutdown" by a group of perpetual whingers. But I digress, many airlines in the world conduct offshoring for various aspects of their operation and at the end of the day if an airline wants to be competetive and profitable at the same time, the only way it can do this is by minimising its cost base which can only be achieved through offshroing as there are only so many costs that can be effectivly reduced locally. whether you like it or not offshoring is going to gain a greater presence within Australia over the coming years and not just in the aviation sector but also in areas such as agriculture.

[Ash W]

Simple Todd, because in many area's our lifestyle has priced us out of the market. If a business was providing a domestic service to Australian's only then of course this higher cost can be covered by our higher wages (hence why domestic still does ok), however once you move into an international market where you are competing with people on a lower cost base you are basicly screwed if you don't join em.

[Todd Hendry]

Mick. You beat me to that one.
Ash, do you know the wages of other pilots around the world who QANTAS ,not Jetstar, compete with.
They are very similar.
Todd

[Ash W]

So Todd if they are very similar then what is all the hooha about? If you listen to the pilots unions the people Qantas want to employ will be 1/2 to 2/3rd the cost of them, so clearly they are not similar. Also look at the annual reports of airlines and see how much staff cost (including no pilot) as a percentage of total outlays and tell me where Qantas sits compared to other airlines. To make it easier just look through this board and you will see the figures I posted comparing Qantas, Cathay and Emirates. There was a stark difference which speaks volumes about the issue Qantas faces.

As I said this is quite clearly caused by the relatively rich lifestyle we now enjoy in this country, it means we are pricing ourselves out of many many markets and clearly international aviation is one of them. Like it or not.

[Todd Hendry]

Ash I agree with you about our rich lifestyle. The domestic bit etc.
Yes the union is right. Because management would like everyone to be on low cost carrier wages. QANTAS doesn't compete with those.
And if this is the case why don't management take a similar pay cut. Or just offshore management too.

Personally I don't think half the stuff on here will eventuate anyway.
We'll have to wait and see.

Todd

[Ash W]

Actually Todd Qantas does compete with airlines internationally who are on a much lower cost base. Sure they are not LCC (but the likes of Air Asia etc are), but they are airlines with significantly lower costs, be that because they are from poorer countries, or oil rich emirates with low to non existent personal and company tax rates.

[Brent L]

People

I heard that JQ will be getting a couple of 744's from QF over the next few months? Is this rumor true? Nothing surprises me any more with QF slowly turning into JQ.

[Zac M]

Has anyone realised how stupid this thread actually is? Seriously everyone, stop getting so fired up and wait for the announcement, everyone is jumping to conclusions based of speculation and coming up with stupid theories based around no facts at all...

[Cam L]

I see what you are saying, but isn't it all part of the fun of major announcements??

Take the VA rebranding. Some of the stuff people had from "good sources" never has or will happened. But it made the build up so much more interesting!!!!

Ok so a qantas announcement isn't as exciting as a rebranding, but it still has an element of anticipation and rumours help build it up!!!

[Jason H]

As a pilot soon to be looking for a job, I think this announcement is one that will hugely affect my future. In my opinion, this is a lot more important than VB's rebranding, for me.

[Beau Chenery]

Zac you do realise people on here have reliable sources so the truth is probably in someones post on here..

[Zac M]

So Qantas cutting SYD-MEL comes from a reliable source?

[Beau Chenery]

Sorry Zac I didn't specify what post contained the correct information I just stated that someones post will most likely contain the correct info.

No I don't think Qantas shakeup will cut into the domestic market very much if at all in my opinion.

Beau

[James R]

Zac .. the stupid speculation on this thread is a little like asking for rego requests isn't it? I suppose rather than asking for your rego you could simply wait and see.

[Zac M]

I don't mind speculation with-in reason, but this thread is just stupid. Yes, I could just not read it, but it is possible something interesting may come up in this thread.

[Justin L]

OK guys you've made your point. Let's get back on topic now please.

[Todd Hendry]

Although I have posted in this thread before this will be my last.
I see no point posting till the announcement.
Todd.

[Andrew Johnson]

Qantas of the future:

MEL-SYD-BNE-PER
MEL-SYD-LAX
MEL-SYD-LHR

Sad times, but times are changing. I don't blame QF for this, they have a premium product (yes we know it has shortfalls) but people want to fly Tiger and Jetstar.

People want to pay a bus fare for an airfare, and are happy to have cheap labour to support these cheap prices
LHR & LAX ?

Probably not with all the competition, esp LHR.

[Anthony T]

Frankfurt should stay, after all QF must be making a fortune from S7, carrying their Moscow passengers from Sydney to Frankfurt.:D

QF website SYD-Moscow cheapest return A$2378.

S7 website SYD-Moscow cheapest return A$937.76 (and there is a promo fare level below this one, but has no availability)

[Steve Jones]

Nice find AT. I didn't believe it, but yes, on the S7 website, you can book a fare with QF to FRA connecting to MOW with S7 for $1000 return including all taxes... A mistake??

[Anthony T]

S7 website SYD-Moscow cheapest return A$937.76

.......and of that the taxes are $673 leaving a base fare of $264 return :cool:

[Chris W]

Could you then just travel on SYD-FRA and be a no-show on the Moscow legs? Or would they assume that have then no-showed for the entire return trip?

[Andrew P]

likely find FRA has an X against it on your ticket, so cant stopeover so any bags must be tagged thru to Moscow, also as nonshow the rest ofthe inteniary will be cancelled

[Lee G]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/gulf-poised-to-snap-up-rich-qantas-travellers-20110814-1it1q.html

This is just what everyone wants ... they'd rather a gulf carrier than our own.

[Dave Dale]

Maybe it's what Qantas has done for all of us, allowed a gulf carrier to become our own.

[Ash W]

It's the classic catch 22 for Qantas. Qantas cannot hope to compete on price with these carriers owing to their government subsidies and lower tax rates. Qantas cannot hope to compete on route options owing to the fact that Qantas is based in Australia which is in the middle of the least populated (and one of the poorest) corners or the the world and the gulf carriers 1 hope from Australia and 1 hop from the rest of the rest of the world. So all Qantas is left to compete with is product and service, which as we all know costs money, especially with the rising cost of living and the higher wage expectations of Australians in general to pay for the cost of living, thus making it even harder to compete on price. So it all goes around in circles.

So I would say the market has driven this. About the only thing Qantas could and or should have done is formed a closer alliance with one of the major gulf carriers or worked closer with Royal Jordanian. Ie if you cannot beat em join em. Just like Virgin Aust has done with Ethiad.

[lloyd fox]

Emirates offered QF a code share from day 1 and they knocked it back.

Another great decision by Qantas.

[Ash W]

You are speaking with hindsite of course. The market when Emirates came to Australia was completly different. For starters Dubai was not non stop as it is today and the amount of onwards destinations (which is irrelivant if the code share didn't include access to these) they had on offer again no where near what it is today.

So yes it is easy to criticise in 2011, but ask the question what would Qantas have got out of the deal back in the mid 90's, when Emirates only carried a bit over 3m passengers, compared to the 31m+ they carry today.

[Andrew Johnson]

It's the classic catch 22 for Qantas. Qantas cannot hope to compete on price with these carriers owing to their government subsidies and lower tax rates. Qantas cannot hope to compete on route options owing to the fact that Qantas is based in Australia which is in the middle of the least populated (and one of the poorest) corners or the the world and the gulf carriers 1 hope from Australia and 1 hop from the rest of the rest of the world. So all Qantas is left to compete with is product and service, which as we all know costs money, especially with the rising cost of living and the higher wage expectations of Australians in general to pay for the cost of living, thus making it even harder to compete on price. So it all goes around in circles.

So I would say the market has driven this. About the only thing Qantas could and or should have done is formed a closer alliance with one of the major gulf carriers or worked closer with Royal Jordanian. Ie if you cannot beat em join em. Just like Virgin Aust has done with Ethiad.
Qantas can employ Thai flight attendants very cheaply. Think I read that the Thai Jetstar flight attendants who got sacked recently in SYD for saying they were tired, were on something like AUD$258/month retainer + AUD$7/hour, which in Thailand, probably means you can live like a king, but is probably 1/10 of what Australian based QF flight attendants are on.

Qantas has no choice, it must lower labour costs as it's competing in a global market.

[lloyd fox]

Ash well obviously Qantas didn't have any hindsight, or they would have done the deal.They would have been told by EK their future plans which blind freddie would have known and understood that non stops were on the plans.

Why defend them they have made plenty of mistakes and this is one big one.

To stick with BA and then have to backtrack all over Europe or go with EK and hub out of DXB one stop to heaps of European destinations .Tell me which is the no brainer.

At least VA have the sense to go with EY ..Oh don't tell me that VA aren't aware of EY expansion plans.

[Justin L]

I'll throw a curve ball.

Asia
QF have already planned some sort of tie up with MH. This would compete with the VA/SQ network for Asia. They have a joint venture in the works with JL for Jetstar Japan hubbing out of NRT for Japan domestic, China and other NE Asia flights.

North America
AA will work for them in the US through LAX and DFW.

Middle East and Europe
If they let the EK thing slip a few years back, and EY is taken with VA, could they look at a VA/EY style tie-up with QR? QR only service MEL in Australia, and with QF Sydney-centric, they wouldn't take away from their prime SYD routes.

Just my thoughts. Probably unlikely I know, but I think it could be interesting.

[Montague S]

in other words Ash, for the past 15+ years QF has been run by blind imbeciles.

[Greg Wood]

One of their biggest mistakes was never getting 777s :eek: amongst many other bad errors of judgement they've made as an airline.

[Andrew Johnson]

787's will help when they finlly arrive, as they'll then be able to do eg. BNE/LAX & MEL/LAX some days with a smaller aircraft, when a 744 can't be justified.

Also SYD/LAX could end up with 1 x A380 & 1 x 787 instead of 744.

Plus QF would probably reintroduce SYD/SFO when 787 arrives.

[Oliver Gigacz]

By the time the 787s arrive MEL-LAX will be all A380s.

[Andrew Johnson]

or maybe all 787's ? QF or JQ ?

[Dave Dale]

I read somewhere (can't remember exactly where) recently that Jetstar are supposed to be getting two 747's from Qantas... sounds unlikely IMO.

[Anthony T]

Could you then just travel on SYD-FRA

You could, the $937 fare is a lot cheaper the a QF SYD-FRA one way ticket, just do a runner in FRA, Take hand baggage only and you would be OK.

[Matt D]

Qantas has no choice, it must lower labour costs as it's competing in a global market.

Andrew hit it on the head with quote above. While the insular views (especially the unions) continue to resist any change, Qantas will continue to go down the gurgler.

The same issues don't exist domestically for QF as its (almost) a level playing field.

But in the international market, international labour rates set the standard. Labour costs are killing the company. Unions and workers need to accept that Qantas International's ship has a big hole in the bottom of it and water is coming in fast. They can continue to fight with and blame management, or work with management to plug the hole before the ship sinks.

[Ash W]

Montague, wouldn't go that far, would say that they have been run by people without a working crystal ball. I bet no one on earth could have imagined how much Emirates and the gulf carriers in general have grown the past 15 years.


And Lloyd do you have any details of this supposed offer to code share? If so what are the details of it? For all we know the agreement was for Qantas to whack it's code on flights to DXB, but no beyond. Just because you code share doesn't mean you are sharing the whole network. You also need to remember what Emirates network look like at the time and what the aircraft of the time were capable of. None were capable of Australia DXB non stop. So maybe the agreement had no major commercial benefit to Qantas.

I also recall there was talk a few years back about another tie up, but that was in return for Qantas to not stand in the way of Emirates flying to the US via Australia.

[Ash W]

Or maybe even scare campaign.

[Allan K.]

I'll throw a curve ball.

Asia
QF have already planned some sort of tie up with MH. This would compete with the VA/SQ network for Asia. They have a joint venture in the works with JL for Jetstar Japan hubbing out of NRT for Japan domestic, China and other NE Asia flights.

North America
AA will work for them in the US through LAX and DFW.

Middle East and Europe
If they let the EK thing slip a few years back, and EY is taken with VA, could they look at a VA/EY style tie-up with QR? QR only service MEL in Australia, and with QF Sydney-centric, they wouldn't take away from their prime SYD routes.

Just my thoughts. Probably unlikely I know, but I think it could be interesting.
understand that QR offered code-share to QF years ago but was knocked back.. by Borghetti !

[Zac M]

Looks like the announcement is going to be today, going by the Qantas Facebook page. It says to keep an eye on their twitter feed from 1000. They are tagging all related tweets with #anewspirit.

[Steve Jones]

Full page wrap-around ads in today's papers. A week early?

[Andrew Johnson]

I read somewhere (can't remember exactly where) recently that Jetstar are supposed to be getting two 747's from Qantas... sounds unlikely IMO.
Why unlikely ?

QF INT is going to continue to shrink. JQ INT is going to continue to expand, especially as they employ cheap foreign crews, that keep their overheads down to the levels of the Air Asia's of this world.

[Kieran Wells]

QF are going crazy on their twitter feed... @Qantasairways or #anewspirit..

There is a video and webpage:http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/a-new-spirit/global/en but says nothing concrete.. Will be interesting with the feed...

So far:(taken directly from the twitter feed)
-5 year plan to make Qantas a strong competitior
-Currently 82 out of every 100 people flying out of Australia are choosing to fly with an airline other than Qantas #anewspirit
-We do not have the option of pretending that things will change if we stay the same. They won’t. #anewspirit
-Core domestic operations performing very strongly & generating good profits. We have 65% of market share in domestic market
-The Qantas Frequent Flyer program is world’s best & most profitable loyalty program #anewspirit
-Today we will make several announcements, the first of a series over the coming months to create a better, stronger Qantas
-The first objective of our 5 year plan is returning Qantas International to profitability in the short term #anewspirit
-Today we announce new gateway strategy, which is based on expanded network of alliance relationships #anewspirit
-Joining American Airlines in DFW, we will strengthen ties with LAN, Malaysia Airlines, South African Airways & British Airways
-Commencing in April 2012 we will replace Buenos Aires with Santiago, starting with 3 services per week. #anewspirit(EDIT:KNEW THIS ONE WOULDNT LAST...)
-Through Malaysia Airlines, Kuala Lumpur will be a gateway to continental Europe, ideal for premium leisure passengers
-johannesburg will remain our gateway into great game parks, beaches & business opportunities of Africa #anewspirit
-We will have more award-winning A380s on daily services to LA & our daily service to London via Singapore from SYD & MEL

[BradR]

So far
-BKK-LHR and HKG-LHR gone. Replaced by BA codeshares
- Final 6 A380s deferred for 6 years
- All 744s to be retired.

[Arthur T]

They are announcing today indeed.
According to the Tweets today, Qantas claimed they constitue only 18% of market share for International operations.
Their goal is to make International operations profitable in the short term, and here are the strategies:

1. Opening Gateways to World
2. Growing with Asia
3. Best for Global Traverllers
4. Building a Strong Business

[Arthur T]

Chris: Qantas B74W will retire by 2021 when the 15th to 20th A380s arrive.
So I think meanwhile they want to upgrade their products on B74Ws to hang for another 5 - 6 years.
Furthermore, an exciting news: Qantas is ordering 78x A320neos! :D
Full script is here:
http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/a-new-spirit/global/en

[Andrew M]

These A320's are just for Jetstar though.........

[Andrew M]

25 or something 744's to be retired and replaced with 10 x A380's
40 or so A320's for Jetstar Australia "expansion"

Not much more needs to be said.

[Grahame Hutchison]

The PR machine has started ...


Qantas - Building a stronger Qantas

As one of our most valued customers, I want to share with you our commitment to building a stronger Qantas. A Qantas that will be better for you.

Since 1920, Qantas has represented the best of what air travel can be. A pioneer that introduced flying to a young nation, carried generations of Australians to meet the world, and became one of the world's great airlines.

Now the times have changed again and Qantas is changing with them.

The new Qantas will take on our global competitors with a spirit that will make Australians proud. An airline that builds on our unrivalled safety record and over 90 years of experience. That offers Australians more choices through new gateways to more destinations around the world. A state-of-the-art fleet with the best comfort, service and entertainment in the sky. An airline that will be strong, dependable and profitable now and into the future.

Of course, as we build a stronger Qantas, some things will never change.

We will always be owned by Australians. We will always be proud that the vast majority of our operations are based in Australia.

We will always call Australia home.

[BradR]

Sorry about the all 744s to be retired. What was announced was a timeframe for retirement.

4 are being retired this financial year with the final 744ERs to be retired by 2019.

[Philip Argy]

Here's the official material:
http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/a-new-spirit/global/en

[Andrew P]

love it when predictions go wrong, brings a smile to the face

[Arthur T]

To me it seems the new strategy by Qantas is seemingly driving Cathay out:

1. No words of Cathay Pacific has been mentioned in the whole press release, whilst emphasising the importance of Chinese market, which is what Cathay Pacific is good at and specialised in.
2. Why bother having another First Class Lounge in Hong Kong whilst they can simply use CX ones?
3. A new premium carrier targetting Chinese market? It seems a new Full Service Carrier in Singapore may not be viable with the range of A320s, so are they saying they want to eat into Cathay Pacific's market by basing 11x A320 in Hong Kong, which could be a better option?
4. It is understandable going to Europe via Singapore/Kuala Lumpur is faster than going via Hong Kong, but seems Qantas is intending to transfer its passengers through to Rome and other European countries via KUL instead of codesharing with CX?

These are my spectulations, but to me it appears there's something wrong between Qantas and Cathay. Interesting times ahead.

[Ash W]

No surprises there Authur, Qantas and Cathay, despite being OneWorld members have never been that close.

Interesting about the larger order for A320's, though someone above said they were for Jetstar and the new airline and not Qantas. Reading the release it doesn't actually say this, so maybe some will find their way into Qantas colours.

[Dave Parer]

Good post Arthur. I thought a tie up with Cathay would have been a sensible move for Qantas.

Can anyone explain what the deal is with QF & CX. Both are members of One World so I thought they would have been friends in this case, but you cannot book a Frequent Flyer flight through Qantas that code shares with Cathay.

The whole Qantas / Cathay arrangement as always seemed odd to me.

[BradR]

ArthurT, Maybe CX are seeing OW as being a basket-case and are planning to get out. They have limited interaction with any of the members and are currently the most profitable airline in the world.

I don't think a QF A320 operation in Asia will cause them too much heartache given they have the ears of the Chinese Government who can determine who gets access to mainland China and who doesn't.

[Zac M]

A reply received on twitter states QF mainline will getsome of the A320s.

[Arthur T]

Also there are no mentions of the coming of B788/B789s.
They are supposingly arriving within next year, first to JetStar (?)
To me it seems the B787-9s will replace some B744s, it might not make sense in terms of capacity, but you may see amongst a number of overseas carriers operating into Australia are targetting to increase frequencies on their routes. Thus there could be no surprises in a longer term Qantas intends to increase frequencies to Asia by using a smaller aircraft?

[Dave Parer]

Increase frequencies to Asia by using a smaller aircraft makes very good sense. More options for the traveler is a good thing. If Qantas go this way, then it is a positive move by them.

[Laurent Sanhard]

as of 2012 no more QF1 service through to London and QF29
these will stop @ Bangkok and BA will take the passengers through to London
BA15/16 increase the 777 service to a 747 like the old days to Singapore , BA 09/10 will only go to Bangkok from London and not through to Sydney
looks like the flying kangaroo is hopping mad , but these are tougth times for airlines

[Jaryd stock]

Didn't Boeing say that in no uncertain terms do they want there new aircraft (787-8/9) that are being delivered to Qantas to be painted up in LCC livery ie: Jetstar. I thought they said it's a premium aircraft for premium airlines first then LCC's..?

[Dave Dale]

Just reading some of the comments on the Qantas facebook page. It appears the new announcement is not very well received by the travelling public.

[Oliver Gigacz]

We have negotiated with Airbus to defer delivery of six of our 20 A380s by five to six years, so that numbers 15 through 20 will be delivered between 2018 and 2021, to line up with the retirement of the last B744ER aircraft in our fleet.

So only four A380 deliveries, before there is none for 6 to 9 years.

Of the four, two will be deliveried later this year (MSN063,074), while the other two (MSN091,102) will be delivered in Q3/Q4 2012. Delivery schedule of the final six, is of course TBA.

So this allow MEL/SYD-SIN-LHR and MEL/SYD-LAX to all go daily.

So BNE may not see QF A380 services for long while.

[Oliver Gigacz]

Just confirmed through Qantas, that the A320s will NOT be used on the Qantas mainline.

[Zac M]

I asked the same question of the twitter feed and got a different response :/. Australian Buisness Traveler is also reporting they will be used on QF Mainline.

[Luke A]

A message of to the Qantas pilots who plan to hold protests in light of the announcements today. And please in no way intended to cause a heated discussion in the thread, but an option to QF management to settle the situation. Give these pilots the books, lock them up in a room for as many days as they like, and ask them to balance the books with a break even or profit forecast for the next five years to ensure the airlines survival.

[Danfeng Qian]

For trip from Australia to China, I would prefer to transfer in Guangzhou/Hong Kong instead of Singapore. It could save at least two hours one way. Both China Southern and DragonAir offer more destinations and frequencies than any others.

[Matt_L]

A message of to the Qantas pilots who plan to hold protests in light of the announcements today. And please in no way intended to cause a heated discussion in the thread, but an option to QF management to settle the situation. Give these pilots the books, lock them up in a room for as many days as they like, and ask them to balance the books with a break even or profit forecast for the next five years to ensure the airlines survival.
Right.... so stuff up your whole workforce but the bosses and managers take no paycuts whatsoever, sounds fair right?

[Dave Dale]

To my cynical side, I thought it would have been a nice touch if Keven Rudd did a translation of Alan Joyce's media release into Cantonese. Since all this is about driving the last breaths of Qantas into Jetstar, I feel it's only fair our Asian friends fully understand how much Qantas loves them, in their own language... Hello Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar New Zealand!

I received an email from Qantas frequent flyer today and it was titled, "There's a new Spirit". I felt it should have been titled, 有一种新的精神 (There's a new Spirit).

Cynical I know, but what gets me is Qantas has gone from calling Australia home, to Australia is mostly home less 1000 employees and hello Asia, our new home for everything other than the limping kangaroo.

[Ash W]

The union response is very interesting but not unexpected, clearly just seeking headlines yet again. From what I see the plan is in many ways a win win for management and the workforce. Whilst of course there are 1000 jobs to go (do wonder if this includes the 500 or so they announced a few months back), the bottom line is these jobs are going because Qantas are shrinking their international fleet. In no way are these staff being replaced by foreigners.

Now the unions argue that the new Asia based airline (probably in Hong Kong) is taking jobs away from Australian's, however from what I understand this airline will be based offshore, serving offshore markets, feed by Qantas flights from Australia crewed by Australian's based in Australia. As for the new airline how can anyone seriously expect for that to be crewed by Australian's, so long as it doesn't fly to our shores? So a win win really.

[Alexander.L]

Dave

Kevin can only speak Mandarin, but of course i can translete into cantonese!

[Dave Dale]

Alex, sounds like a plan ;)

[Owen H]

Can't be bothered.

[Jayden Laing]

Just putting it out there, PLENTY of room for expansion in KUL... In fact they are already building now.

[Ash W]

In this whole announcement, I have not seen a single step which aims to develop or revitalise QF International. It is all slash and burn, and shows absolutely no initiative to develop the international brand.

When there is an underperforming part of the business, surely it would be wise to concentrate on returning that part to profit and success before pursuing multiple ventures which must be considered relatively high risk.

QF International is a solid business... it should be developed and returned to success. Working with the staff, investing in fuel-efficient equipment, and increasing service to compete with the likes of Emirates would be a good start. Instead, the entire announcement was slashing key routes, and establishing new businesses with venture partners.

Owen, not sure why you cannot be bothered, but lets look at some facts with your post that you have deleted. Firstly QF International is NOT a solid business. You don't have to believe Joyce to see this, just look at the traffic figures and see who people are flying and why. The main why is because there are now so many hub airlines based one hop to Australia's west that can offer bucket loads more destination options than Qantas can ever hope for and at a price that Qantas cannot compete with.

As for returning an under performing business to profit ever stop to think that this is what it is all about? Sometime you need to contract to be able to grow. From what I see Qantas is doing that, contracting to concentrate on specific markets where it makes perfect sense and is profitable for Qantas and growing new markets where there is demand an opportunity.

They are opening new markets that Qantas CANNOT do from Australia, ie Japanese domestic airline and this new Asian premium carrier. If these two entities, plus all the various other Jetstar Asian based operations work then there is no reason why they cannot generate and funnel traffic back into Australia, which in turn will allow the international business to grow, be profitable and be a solid business proposition.

[Owen H]

I can't be bothered because people have already made their mind up either way.

It doesn't matter how much we discuss why all of the other premium carriers are going from strength to strength (including, I might add, BA which has far greater cost issues than QF), while Qantas retracts, and why there is more than enough proof that people ARE prepared to pay higher rates for Qantas flights than other carriers, people here either agree, or disagree, and that won't change.

For the record, the post was deleted for a reason, and I'm not particularly impressed at it being quoted and then remaining on the board.

[Mick F]

I can't be bothered because people have already made their mind up either way

Agree Owen. There appears to be one "expert" who even when others offer their opinion, they shoot them down.

I've not bothered to comment on any of this lately, because I can't be bothered reading the rant I'll get in reply.

Qantas, was once a great Australian airline and with the right management, it could still continue to be a great Australian airline. For now, it appears as though it's becoming the "Spirit of Asia".

Mick

[Ash W]

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me....

[Owen H]

Not at all Ash.

I freely admit my mind is already made up based on the evidence I have seen, and I can see yours is made up based on what you have seen.

That doesn't mean we're wrong in doing that, just that there is really no point beating drums and/or chests over it any more.

[Jarden S]

Qantas may pull out of MNL and increase JQ79 to daily via DRW as allows connections from most states. Later on JQ could put on a 321 on the route they still got some on order from Airbus, that way they can provide 1440 seats per week to MNL. Could still expand their DRW hub with more flying as close to Asia were they can tap into the cheaper cabin crew.

[Ash W]

Owen wasn't you I was refering to, and what you said is why I am surprised you deleted your post. BTW, I was actually working on my reply before you deleted the original, I then quoted the orginal as what I was saying made no sense in the context of the other posts.

[Michael Morrison]

Qantas to become a "gateway" carrier and maximising its network through alliance partners... sounds a little like Virgin's strategy!

[Arthur T]

Re Mr Morrison:

Think there are a few Michaels around so...
The European Gateway is indeed really similar to Virgin Australia, but I think it is even worse. Ethiad has far more destinations than Malaysia Airlines + Cathay Pacific + British Airways (from Asia) combined in Europe, and premium passengers who wish to travel from Point A to Point B for such a long distance will definitely try their best to travel within shortest time and transfers required. Because it is tiring to change planes all the time. Although the current Ethiad network is yet to be perfect (currently there are no services to Vienna, Oslo, Stockholm, Madrid etc, at least bookable via VA's website, there are already more 1 stop European destinations than the new Qantas International could offer, let alone if Ethiad is going to expand further into Europe in years to come.

For South East Asia, the Malaysian x Qantas vs Singapore x Virgin rival should be a draw since the network for SQ and MH are pretty much the same. Note Virgin may win some Indian passengers back because of the agreement and the reputation of SQ in India.

Similar tie up for USA and Trans Tasman I would say at the moment and I believe the determint will be East Asia. Thus far Virgin has yet to sign up an alliance with a North East Asian carrier. Although you might argue it is unnecessary due to existance of SQ alliance, I want to make a point that the current SQ/MI network to NE Asia is not as extensive as the potential JetStar Japan and Japan Airlines can make.

For this I would recommend Virgin to sign up with Asiana Airlines for their NE Asian network. It is going to be really useful as OZ pentrates more than JL into China whilst there's a strong presence of OZ in Japan as well.

Finally back to the topic, I hope this is not offensive, but strategically in terms of OneWorld positioning I find it st**id for Qantas to consider a full service carrier based in KUL/SIN. If the new airline is going to base in KUL, it is going to be a direct competition between 2 OW airlines in one hub. This has never happened before even in the USA when there's only 1 OW Carrier - AA. For Singapore, Qantas have enough 5th freedom rights plus JetStar to operate these sort of thing. JetStar might not be premium enough, but with its new JetStar Plus Fare strategy, I think a hybrid premium carrier can be established in Singapore by chaning fare structure of JetStar Asia.

What is really needed is indeed BKK. There's limited presence of OneWorld at BKK whilst most OneWorld carriers are flying into this port. If Qantas is putting their 11x A320s plus possibly some JQ A330 (when JQ B787 arrive) to BKK for a Premium hub, this is going to be really profitable and even it could be a main threat to Thai Airways (In terms of product Qantas is indeed better than Thai). Thailand has a much higher European travel demand than any other Asian countries and this is what exactly Qantas needs.

[Dave Dale]

Something I noticed while reading the Investor Presentation was that Qantas will not renew Boeing 737-800 leases (page 22). I thought Qantas would hang on to these for a lot longer. My question is how much more time do the original leased 738's have? I think from memory, some of the VH-VY* series were leased.

[Arthur Boy]

Evening All, didnt AJ spin all this 'postive' news so well?

I can only drool at what further good news the endearing CEO will have on the 24th.......

Lets see..........JKT / MNL........I see lots of Orange here......

And do we really need 22 74's to serve a shrinking network of Red destinations?

Methinks more 74's in the domestic skies to further mount the challenge a proper Business class offering from DJ........

Speaking of which, anyone else noticed the distinctive downgrade of food service in J/class of late........Spag Bol offered as a main meal tarted up as pasta a la tarted up, or some such haute cuisine bollocks. Oh, and the 2 inch Toblerone has been replaced by the 2 inch Cadbury Dairy Milk.....both fine products clearly but equally clear is the price difference......and the paying punters are noticing and will vote with their feet. Simple.

Isnt da little fella doin a fine job protecting what once was a great company......?

Oh I just cannot wait for the 24th...........tissues anyone?

AB

[Jason H]

Love this post Arthur hahaha.

Found this video promoting their new spirit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuH59v9QwXQ

Doesn't his smile just bring a shiver up your spine?

Tried commenting on it but it has to get approved before being posted. Needless to say, my comment will not get approved.

[Michael Morrison]

I also wonder if the UK crew base will remain given the current EBA requirement that 1 flight be op'd by Aussie crews

[Ash W]

Interesting point Michael, it would make sense for that base to be shut and crewed once more from Australia or Asia.

Dave in regards to your comment above about 738 leases, if you look in the civil aviation register you will see all the 738's are owned by "leasing" companies, though a good deal of these are clearly Qantas owned shelf companies and a few owned by Orix and some other Australian companies that may or may not be Qantas in disguise. If I am not mistaken -OJR was retired recently because it's lease (from a Qantas owned company) expired, so really any of the aircraft could be up for removal from the fleet when their "leases" expire.

[Mick F]

Here's a couple of questions for Mr Joyce and his followers to answer....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojE7fogh6rU&feature=player_embedded#at=369

Mick

[Dave Dale]

Ash, I was of the understanding OJR was owned by Allco Finance and had the highest lease costs which is why it left early. I didn't think it was owned by Qantas but rather sold and leased back years ago.

[Montague S]

begs the question, if QF international is in such a bad state then why is the shake-up so minor? and if the books are not as bad as Joyce says, then what is his real agenda?

either it is in a bad way or it isn't.

[Ash W]

Your right Dave, OJR was sold to Allco.

And Montague if the shake up is so minor why are there so many people in a rage about the changes, the pilots in particular? Personally I don't understand why the rage, because if anything this give the pilots what they wanted, Australian jobs for Australian pilots and if the offshore entity works it will increase traffic into Australia thus generating even more new jobs. Though for now clearly there needs to be a reduction. The only thing though is for the most part their flying will be made up of single destination trips! Maybe that's the issue now, no more jollies.

Things like the video posted by Mick clearly show how little the pilots (well the pilot who made that anyway) really understand about the issues, even blind Freddy can see them. Is this change the fix, who knows, but what is for certain and what the pilots don't accept is change IS NEEDED.

[Montague S]

and if the problems are so big, Ash, then why are the changes quite minor? Joyce told us nothing that we didn't already know. Seems pretty odd for a company that is apparently in deep sh..?!

you seem to have all the answers...perhaps you can even answer this?

[Mick F]

So setting up an overseas company and reducing mainline is creating more jobs in Australia is it?

The person (might not even be a pilot) who made that could have more insight than yourself.

Or as Montague said, do you have all the answers?

Mick

[Ash W]

The only reason I seem to have the answer is everyone else who holds a view different to you, Montague etc has deserted the board in general. Funny that isn't it?

[Mick F]

That doesn't make sense....

[Matt_L]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NRKrmEjVNM

In case you missed this important announcement- see this video..

[Mick F]

An interesting article by Ben Sandilands

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/16/questions-that-qantas-investors-may-like-to-have-answered/

Mick

[Robert S]

I stopped viewing from that point on.

I got past that, but the following footage consisting of a series of grabs of AJ umming and ahhing while answering questions at the National Press Club which were then poorly edited together was just so childish that I wasn't going to continue beyond that point.

The other video from the same source since posted which consists of taking the AJ New Spirit video and messing up the pitch to chipmunk level and putting on apparently humerous subtitles is also childish and I didn't proceed beyond the first line.

Don't get me wrong - I think the direction Qantas has been going has been on the nose for many years now and although I'm unashamedly a Virgin Australia fan, I do still recall feeling pride in Qantas and Australian and it does make me sad that the "new spirit" in my view is simply a case of lopping off everything but the shiniest fruit and rushing off shore to take a punt elsewhere under some other non-Qantas brand trying to trade off the Qantas brand. To me this is waving the white flag stuff, for what I hope turns out to be merely a low point in Qantas' history. I'm an aviation fan - I'd rather see two great and successful airlines, not having one of them I regard as shabby in large parts of their product and going downhill at an ever increasing rate of knots.

But childish and pathetic videos do absolutely nothing to help the cause of questioning what is happening - they work completely against it. Poor form.

[lloyd fox]

FOUND THIS.

Australia's federal government is under pressure to prevent Qantas sending jobs offshore after the airline announced 1000 jobs would be affected by a restructure of its operations.

Unions claim more than 6000 industry jobs could be lost because of the airline's decision.

Union leaders stood with federal parliamentarians in Canberra on Wednesday demanding action be taken against the airline.

Qantas has announced a five-year plan to create a premium service in Asia and other restructuring that will lead to job losses.

Independent senator Nick Xenophon said he would introduce a bill to ensure the airline could not employ foreign crew at rates lower than Australian crew flying in and out of the country.

"There's a real concern that Jetstar has been getting away with practices that are just unconscionable," he told reporters of Qantas' budget arm.

"Qantas can no longer call Australia home, it's more of a layover for Qantas."

The airline's claim that its international division was losing money while "no-frills" Jetstar was going gangbusters did not make sense, the senator said.

"I think their books and accounts need to be subject to forensic scrutiny.

The Transport Workers Union says for every job in the aviation industry there are 6.5 jobs attached.

"We've effectively had the Qantas group announce that 6500 people will effectively lose their jobs in this industry," national secretary Tony Sheldon said.

"We've also had the Qantas group of course with their announcement hide the additional 4000 that we estimate will add to this list as they retire planes and open up an expanded operation further in Asia."

Sheldon called on the government to effect the intent of the Qantas Sale Act.

"And if the intent isn't strong enough it should be looking at legislative moves to protect what is not only an economically vital industry but a vital form of national defence, national training and national skills."

Pilots are concerned about standards and further job losses as Qantas mothballed its fleet domestically and growth went offshore.

"It won't be ,1000 pilots, it'll probably be about 5,000 staff at Qantas that could lose their jobs if this allowed to continue," Australian International Pilots Association president Barry Jackson said.

Australian Greens MP Adam Bandt said the public expected legislation to ensure Qantas remained largely in local ownership.

Bandt said he was unconvinced the airline would suffer serious detriment if it could not arrange cheap labour overseas.

He intends pressing Joyce on the issue in a meeting later on Wednesday.

Australian Licensed Engineers Association federal secretary Steve Purvinas said "it was just one great big fat lie" Qantas had to make the changes to remain competitive.

"This company is about to announce a $500 million profit," he said.

He claimed the closure of the Rolls Royce centre of excellence in Sydney had resulted in safety issues because overseas workshops were full.

Labor senator Glenn Sterle, a former aviation union organiser, said he had no doubt the ALP would stand up for Australian jobs.

Joyce said union criticisms were not protecting the airline.

"What we have seen is the unions continuing to trash the Qantas name," he said.

"They are continuing to undermine Qantas, they are continuing to make false accusation about Qantas."

Joyce said the airline was trying to ensure the proposed 1000 job cuts were through voluntary redundancies.

"We are working through with each of the individual staff groups about how we do that," he said.

Already 400 cabin crew had applied for voluntary redundancy.

"We will be doing that with all of the individual staff groups to make sure there is the minimum amount of compulsory redundancies."

AAP

[Ash W]

All well and good except the jobs are not going offshore. The Australian operations are being scaled back with the costly 2nd legs of two flights replaced with code share, just like most of the European airlines who once flew to Australia did a good 10 years ago, including a lot of BA's Australian flights. Everything else within Qantas itself is status quo.

The new airline+Jetstar Japan are a separate issues, and are designed to serve NEW markets mostly WITHIN Asia, which cannot nor should they be crewed by Australians. If anything this may well lead to more demand for Qantas services (crewed by Australians) to and from Australia in a few years time as well it will give more destinations in Asia that can be accessed by Qantas flights from Australia, that people currently get to by flying Thai or Singapore.

[Ash W]

Have a question. How many here support Richard Branson bringing Virgin to Australia and elsewhere in the world? How many think that airline should be crewed solely by UK based crews and maintained by poms, even if these airlines are based in different countries. How many support V(irgin) Australia flying to the UK? How many think it is right that Australian's crew these flights instead of UK based Virgin Atlantic crews? Do you hear Virgin Atlantic crews carrying on about foreigners taking their jobs which in effect is what is happening with the V Australia flight to London.

Now the reason I ask is at the end of the day the way in which Branson has spread the Virgin brand around the world is not too dissimilar to what Qantas has done and is planning with their new Asian based airline, the only major difference is the Qantas brand is meaningless outside of Australia, so it will use a different name.

[Dave Dale]

Ash for me, the difference between Virgin and Qantas is that Virgin belongs to no one and no where - it identifies only as a brand and not to any one country or people. However, Qantas identifies as Australia and if you are patriotic like myself, then I worry when I see things like 1000 jobs gone, flights cut, the expansion of Jetstar at the apparent cost of Qantas.

I read the linked article regarding what is missing from British Airways that is found on Singapore Airlines flights. It had to do with flag carriers and I felt it summed up Qantas quite well.

I am interested to see what next Wednesday brings whether we will have new announcements to compound those of this week.

As a side note, by the beginning of 2012, no more Qantas 747's at Heathrow. The first time since their introduction to the fleet in 1971.

[Laurent Sanhard]

I think that stopping QF1 at Bangkok was a mistake , after all this was the first international regular route by Qantas through to London , I realise its about saving money but this was a flagship route for Qantas ( kangaroo route ) they should have upgraded this to an A380 next year and stop QF31 at Singapore ,... if these cost cutting ./ codeshare changes don't work for Qantas in the next 2 years I don't think they will have many more options to fix this once great airline...........

[Brett o]

Hi Laurent

I believe the fist Qantas flight on the Kangaroo Route was on 1 December 1947. It went Sydney to London, with stopovers in Darwin, Singapore, Calcutta (Kolkata), Karachi, Cairo and Tripoli.

My first memories of QF 1 was Sydney,Singapore , Bahrain London. (I think the flight started in Melb) but I am sure other members of the board can go back a lot further :) .

I think QF first went via Bangkok in the 1980's as a reaction to BA making a 1 stop flight from London to Sydney . I think it was when the 747 -300 came in but not sure.

My understanding is that Singapore has always been a much more profitable destination and transfer airport for Qantas than Bangkok.

If QF 1 (as whatever number) is reestablished I think it may go via Shanghai but that is in the future

My Guess is that QF 31/32 will become QF1/2 next year. Stopping the flight in Singapore with all the flights from other Australian cities is not an option.

[Rich W]

There is already heaps of competition in Asia. I had a look at Jetstar Asia when I travelled SE Asia a few years ago but the prices were way more than Tiger/Air Asia. I don't understand how creating 2 new airlines in Asia will have any benefit when they already have Jetstar?

Does anyone know how successful Jetstar is in Asia at the moment?

[Andrew Johnson]

All well and good except the jobs are not going offshore. The Australian operations are being scaled back with the costly 2nd legs of two flights replaced with code share, just like most of the European airlines who once flew to Australia did a good 10 years ago, including a lot of BA's Australian flights. Everything else within Qantas itself is status quo.

The new airline+Jetstar Japan are a separate issues, and are designed to serve NEW markets mostly WITHIN Asia, which cannot nor should they be crewed by Australians. If anything this may well lead to more demand for Qantas services (crewed by Australians) to and from Australia in a few years time as well it will give more destinations in Asia that can be accessed by Qantas flights from Australia, that people currently get to by flying Thai or Singapore.
of course jobs are going offshore, it's the only chance QF has of surviving.

Employment might be under Jetstar umbrella rather than QF, at Jetstar or lower pay rates.

[BradR]

I sincerely hope the new strategy works in the short term and the share price recovers so I can sell!!!! At the moment my $25000 investment is worth $12000!!!

[Ash W]

Rich, Jetstar asia is a LCC and clearly there is a market for that type of airline. Likewise there is a market for full service airlines too.

The problem Qantas has in Asia is at present the only full service airline they have access to is Cathay, who is not what you would call a very active/co-operative member of OneWorld, especially with Qantas. So for most people if you want to fly to anywhere in Asia other than Singapore, Bangkok or Hong Kong you need to fly a non OneWorld carrier. So it does make sense to sponsor MAS into OneWorld (this also gives more European destinations too), and create their own new full service airline, which in turn if it all works should allow for growth in Qantas international on flights out of Australia.

[Ash W]

Dave I think the day of flag carriers went out the window many years ago, particularly with the creation of airline alliances.

As for identifying with a brand, think you are spot on about Qantas being a brand for Australian's, but for example Virgin being a brand for everyone. I think you will find that this is one reason why Jetstar for example has no real tie to the Qantas name and why the new airline will be not called Qantas.

In the future I fully expect the new airline to fly to Australia alongside Qantas aircraft (not as a replacement for), but my prediction is this airline will be mostly carrying non Australians into Australia, with Qantas mainly carrying Australian's out of oz, in other words serving two separate markets, oh with Jetstar carrying the LCC passengers in and out.

[lloyd fox]

AT least Virgin cares about Australia and Australian jobs.

Today's Courier Mail.

VIRGIN Australia is in talks with aviation unions to rescue the 1000 workers Qantas plans to sack.

Confidential correspondence reveals Virgin is also seeking to usurp Qantas's patriotic branding as the "Spirit of Australia".

Virgin Group executive Richard Tanner even said the airline was prepared to deal with its rival to take the workers off its hands.

"We are keen to ensure that as many as possible of the highly skilled staff being displaced by Qantas are provided the opportunity to be considered for suitable roles at our airline," Mr Tanner said.

"We are willing to liaise directly with Qantas and the aviation unions to help as many of the redundant Qantas staff as possible.

"Virgin Australia is committed to its Australian roots and to delivering the best travel experience in Australian skies."


Transport Workers Union national secretary Tony Sheldon said the Virgin offer proved that there was a strong future in Australia's aviation industry.

"Virgin is moving in the right direction," Mr Sheldon said.

"This is the challenge that Qantas has got: they're expanding the airline but getting rid of Australian jobs and that's a very fundamental mistake."

He claimed tens of thousands of workers could lose their jobs under outsourcing plans - 5000 over five years from Qantas and an estimated 6.5 flow-on jobs for each of those positions. Qantas has rejected the claims.

Australian International Pilots Association president Barry Jackson warned Qantas could lose its reputation as Australia's national carrier.

"Qantas has enjoyed an enormous natural advantage over Virgin when it comes to reputation and Australian identity," Captain Jackson said.

"Yet the way things are going under these two CEOs, things could turn around very, very quickly."

The Aviation Unions Federation of Australia said the move by Virgin proved an airline could be profitable with local staff.

"The AUF welcomes any expansion of Australian aviation companies, which sees Australian jobs, Australian conditions and Australian standards maintained and enhanced," he said.

[Jack B]

John Borghetti is a man of integrity, a huge loss for Qantas.

Whenever you fly on Virgin now there's a buzz amongst all the employees - it really is great at that place. Shame about the other side of the terminal..

[Andi O]

Just throwing it out there, but from what I see, most are assuming this "new" full service, unnamed, carrier based out of Asia will be something fresh and exciting. I don't think it has been said by QF that this is the case. I am reading it as they will set up an Asian based carrier to be the Qantas carrier through the region (read Jetconnect in NZ)
I see it being visually Qantas with Qantas service, but as is the case with Jetconnect, operated by a "subsidiary" working with different employment and operating conditions. I think it will operate services on behalf of QF out of Asia such as the current service bewteen Singapore and Adelaide, Perth, Brisbane, Mumbai etc and (hopefully) expand the flying options with Qantas out of and around Asia.
Time will tell I guess.....

[Ash W]

Andi, spot on, and by expanding those options it should generate employment in Australia too for Qantas employee's.

And Jack you make me laugh. Have a look at what Borghetti's role was with Qantas and how involved he was in setting up Jetstar etc. Believe me if he was running Qantas now he would be doing exactly the same kind of thing as Joyce.

[Dave Dale]

Ash, not so sure about your last premise, I heard John Borghetti in an interview in about May stating that he left Qantas because of the direction it was taking. There was a reason why Alan Joyce got the job and we all see it now. I believe it is the same reason why John Borghetti no longer wears his Qantas tie.

Dave

[Ash W]

He may well have left for that reason, however the fact remains he was on the board and was an active participant in the creation of Jetstar (which many opponents reckon was the death knell of Qantas) and as executive general manager of Qantas the direction it took until the time he left.

[BradR]

What is amazing in all of this is the marketing smarts of VA compared with the sheer incompetence of QF.

VA has sniffed the wind and know that the announcement about staff hiring is a winner with "Joe Public." Whether they hire all of the displaced staff probably doesn't matter they have won huge free marketing even down to a radio journalist saying on Fairfax Radio this morning that Virgin is becoming the new Spirit of Australia.

In the meantime QF has looked shifty, the announcement is not complete and they have the added misfortune of a CEO talking about how Australian the business is with a thick Irish accent. They have respected Australians on the Board like Peter Cosgrove. Having him sit beside AJ would have at least added some Australianness to a very foreign feeling announcement of "We are setting up a foreign airline in an unnamed foreign city staffed by foreigners whilst at the same time cutting back our traditional Australian services all in the name of growing an Australian business."

[A McLaughlin]

Ash - Borghetti was NOT on the Qantas Board, he was in senior management. Major difference.

[Andrew P]

Correct, senior management drives the company, the board just comes along for the ride

[Laurent Sanhard]

totally agree with your above comment BradR , in my opinion Qantas has been too slow off the mark and had too many problems adapting to the changing / challenging market, Virgin Australia may have a new logo in a couple of years , Virgin the "new" spirit of Australia .......................:cool:

[Andrew M]

As much as Virgin Australia has a buzz about it, it is still not making money!

[Greg Wood]

Virgin has consumer confidence & the airline is moving forward, Qantas is in turmoil & its long term plans created so much controversity it requires a re-think! Its not to late......

[Laurent Sanhard]

intersting article in the SMH today , http://www.smh.com.au/business/bumpy-ride-on-the-shrinking-kangaroo-20110819-1j28m.html

basically confirming that this bold move is make or break for Qantas and how setting up a new airline in Asia has its local challenges

[John Arena]

BA Ending Services from BKK-SYD (BAW009) on 25th March 1012 (BA Site)
Not sude about Qantas to LHR

John

[Anthony T]

From airlineroute.net

As per 19AUG11 GDS timetable display, British Airways has loaded Summer 2012 operational changes for service to Bangkok, Hong Kong, Singapore and Sydney.

The adjustment is made followed by QANTAS’ announcement of its network restructuring, reported on 15AUG11. BA and QANTAS currently has joint-venture agreement on Kangaroo route.

Details effective 25MAR12:

London Heathrow – Bangkok
BA009 LHR2200 – 1515+1BKK 744 D
BA010 BKK0020 – 0630LHR 744 D

BA Bangkok – Sydney sector cancelled. LHR BKK sector schedule remains pending for the moment.
BA codeshare on QANTAS BKK SYD service is now closed as QF system also closed the reservation on this sector

London Heathrow – Hong Kong Increase from 14 to 17 weekly, new flights with 777-200
BA031 LHR1200 – 0655+1HKG 777 357
BA025 LHR1840 – 1315+1HKG 744 D
BA027 LHR2200 – 1650+1HKG 77W D

BA032 HKG0900 – 1500LHR 777 146
BA026 HKG2315 – 0455+1LHR 744 D
BA028 HKG2345 – 0540+1LHR 77W D

QANTAS has closed HKG LHR sector reservation. BA only has codeshare traffic rights on LHR MEL, which is also closed.

London Heathrow – Singapore – Sydney Boeing 747-400 replace 777-200ER (LHR SIN existing Daily 747 service BA011/012 remains unchanged for the moment)
BA015 LHR2115 – 1655+1SIN1945+1 – 0515+2SYD 744
BA016 SYD1530 – 2145SIN2310 – 0520+1LHR 744

[John Arena]

Some interesting news found on the QF Site, when looking for flight numbers from SYD-BKK, i found the following:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a45PCaYi6PY/TlIpDXsFHrI/AAAAAAAAAYI/IJfzKN5GlQM/s800/Screen%252520shot%2525202011-08-22%252520at%2525207.56.12%252520PM.png
Some interesting Codeshares

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VsFeDdWT_aA/TlIpC8VOGTI/AAAAAAAAAYE/h8_3waqd4G0/s800/Screen%252520shot%2525202011-08-22%252520at%2525207.56.35%252520PM.png
Code Share with Hong Kong Airlines

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AUXsiHCJjZQ/TlIpDp_UEUI/AAAAAAAAAYM/3U-eqYFUn7g/s800/Screen%252520shot%2525202011-08-22%252520at%2525207.56.28%252520PM.png
a VERY interesting Codeshare with Emirates

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IMSOW701E5Y/TlIpz9bHroI/AAAAAAAAAYU/yQrtGlK9hWQ/s800/Screen%252520shot%2525202011-08-22%252520at%2525207.59.32%252520PM.png
Proof that SYD-BKK-SYD will be QFA023/QFA024

Does anyone have any further information??

John

[Ash W]

Yep and QF31/32 is now QF1/2. Though I do wonder why when I just did the searche you did there is no sign of QF23/24 at all, the only flights showing for me are QF301/302? Maybe the data is not ready to go live yet and you caught it at the right moment.

[John Arena]

Right place, right time, does anyone have anything on the codeshares, interesting seeing the Emirates stuff up there

John

[Jim Liu]

SYD BKK is changing to QF023/024, already reflected on BA's system.

QF does not codeshare with Emirates nor Hong Kong Airlines, those flights are simply interline connection, which is common for most airline's booking engine.

[Ash W]

I have never before seen any airlines booking engine show interline connections, especially Qantas and especially in the booking section of the website. A travel agent maybe.

[Alex Lui]

Hong Kong schedules now reshuffled.

Perth / Brisbane / Melbourne (as mentioned) is now a turnaround in Hong Kong with day flights to Hong Kong and overnight to Australia. Sydney's QF88 is now an turnaround arriving about 2-3 hours after QF128 in Sydney.

[Andrew P]

A mate of mine had to get to BKK, just before Christmas, and the QF website sold him a ticket SYD to Jakarta on QF, connecting to Garuda to KL, and then connecting to LH to BKK

As direct flight fully booked, he took this route (direct BA back)

[Nigel C]

Qantas financial reports are now up...

http://www.news.com.au/business/qantas-more-than-doubles-net-profit/story-e6frfm1i-1226121001509

And in a separate article...
http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/skys-the-limit-for-demanding-qantas-workers/story-e6frfq80-1226120979598

AUSSIES should get set for chaos at our airports as we head back to the bad old days of union mischief, says Janet Albrechtsen from The Australian.

GET set for chaos at our airports as we head back to the bad old days of union mischief.

In April, unions threatened "guerilla warfare" against Qantas right across the globe if the airline brought in managers to replace striking employees. Then, last week, Qantas engineers and pilots threatened strikes in response to the restructuring plans announced by Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce.

Bring it on. For too long, unions at Qantas have got their way. If this is the modern face of the union movement, then unions have not yet secured a sensible, responsible place for themselves in the 21st-century workplace.

They have learned nothing from Ansett's demise 10 years ago, after years of union-dominated cost structures. And they have learned nothing from the broader union movement's diminishing membership.

In a case of industrial deja vu, get ready too for all sorts of claims thrown at the flying kangaroo, most of them highly emotional and economically irrational and some of them downright misleading and reckless.

To his credit, the federal Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Anthony Albanese, made clear this was a commercial decision by Qantas. In the 2009 white paper, Albanese said the airline industry would best rebound from economic turbulence by innovating and expanding.

Could the minister have a word with his party's core base, the commercially illiterate unions that want to stop Qantas from innovating and expanding?

Most disappointing is the pilots' union. They are called the Australian and International Pilots Association as if to suggest an "association" is more refined than your average union. Sadly, its highly educated members are not so refined, choosing cheap emotion when they should know better.

They should know that for much of this century, well before September 11, 2001, the airline business has been in a state of financial crisis, suffering billions of dollars in losses. Numbers say it all. With more than 82 per cent of customers choosing an airline other that Qantas to fly overseas, it's clear that people buy tickets based on price, not brand.

The international side of the Qantas business is being dragged down by cost structures a hefty 24 per cent higher than rivals, by competition from airlines run by oil-rich governments and by geographical challenges.

Our national carrier is an end-of-the-line airline, not one operating from the world's major hubs. So the decision by Qantas to cut unprofitable routes and to build two new airlines in major Asian hubs using 110 new narrow body aircraft makes eminent commercial sense. In fact, it's good old common sense.

Unencumbered by logic, the unions are the biggest drag on our flying kangaroo. Take, for example, the pilots' union demand that all pilots on Jetstar and other Qantas affiliate airlines be paid the same as Qantas pilots. This is sheer economic lunacy. Jetstar operates in the very different, low-cost leisure market. The low-cost airline has excelled because it has negotiated different enterprise agreements with its staff that enable it to compete favourably with other low-cost airlines.

Now check out the terms of your average Qantas pilot. They receive higher salaries than most long-haul pilots across the globe and fly fewer hours, receive six weeks' leave and 25 sick days. They get cheap flights and upgrades to the pointy end of the plane. But they want more - for starters, a 2.5 per cent wage increase for the next three years, free international economy tickets, upgradable to seats closer to the cockpit and $1 million to fund their union bosses each year.

The pilots' greedy demands will endanger the low-cost Jetstar business and burden Qantas with costs its international airline cannot afford. Simple mathematics tell you this is not good for customers or jobs.

Consider also the deceptive claims from the highly educated engineers' union that also likes to use the more highfalutin label of an "association". Their emotive claim for "job security" is a demand to entrench outdated and inefficient maintenance practices that most other airlines have long since reformed. To get a sense of the backward-looking unions, the engineer's union demands would prevent Qantas from updating its maintenance in line with new regulations set down by Australia's Civil Aviation and Safety Authority regulations.

And don't fall for the unions' wicked use of emotional tricks. Steve Purvinas, the boss of the engineers' union, said last month: "Alan Joyce does not want Australian aircraft engineers inspecting aircraft because we find things wrong with them; he'd rather take his chances that nothing goes wrong at 40,000 feet."

Apart from ignoring the crucial fact that 90 per cent of maintenance of Qantas aircraft occurs in Australia, is Purvinas really making the knuckleheaded claim that the 82 per cent of passengers who travel overseas on an airline apart from Qantas are willing to take their chances that nothing goes wrong at 40,000 feet? This arrant nonsense highlights why the union movement has only itself to blame for its slow demise.

Does big corporation now equal big corporate liar
Try this on for size, too. The pilots' union and the engineers' union have raised questions about the $200m loss suffered by Qantas International. And hot on their heels, the headline-hunting independent senator, Nick Xenophon, wants "forensic scrutiny" of the accounts.

Does big corporation now equal big corporate liar? These are seriously reckless accusations given the legal obligations and penalties imposed on those who mislead the Australian Stock Exchange.

One need only look at the Qantas share price today to fathom the challenges facing Qantas. Recall the takeover bid at $5.45 in 2007 rejected by large shareholders as inadequate. Yesterday, Qantas shares closed at $1.54. The world has changed and Qantas is trying to change to survive.

Desperate for attention, a few independent MPs are spurring on the unions. Last week, independent Queensland senator Bob Katter said 5000 jobs would be lost. Incorrect. Qantas will cut 1000 jobs as part of its restructure.

Then Katter played the parochial card, arguing for new legislative restrictions on Qantas and pointing the finger at the "people from overseas" such as "Mr Cleverness" at Qantas (Joyce is Irish-born) and Gail Kelly (who hails from South Africa) at Westpac.

God forbid, Senator, that we should encourage the movement of people and trade in the 21st century.

The same ill-conceived brand of Katter economics once argued in favour of so-called "national champions" to justify governments running airlines and taxpayers picking up the tab. It failed dismally: governments have no idea how to run efficient businesses.

Even dumber in economic terms is the prospect of fencing in Qantas with new demands to stop the airline growing its business overseas. As the experts will tell you, that's a sure way to turn a national carrier into a national basket case.

janeta@bigpond.net.au

[Michael Mak]

Cathay Pacific website shows some weird interline connections on SYD-HKG as well, albeit only for the fully flexible Y fare. On some of the flights to Hong Kong and back, it shows connection with Virgin Australia via Brisbane or Melbourne to Hong Kong and back.

[A McLaughlin]

Oh please don't start quoting Janet Albrechtsen...she's just a little to the right of Hitler! :eek:

[Andrew P]

looks like this topic can now be locked as it has reached its end

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

[Justin L]

Nice! I had never heard of Godwin's law but I like it. I won't close the thread, but now as the Qantas boss has outlined the "big international shake-up", I would like to encourage that specific new threads be created to discuss each of the aspects. For example, flight number changes for BKK, or SCL details, Jetstar Japan, etc.

That way the threads can flow more smoothly on their topics. Some of these threads have already been recently created by forum members.

[Ray P.]

219 posts before Godwin's law is enacted. Brilliant. :rolleyes:

[Anthony T]

You could, the $937 fare is a lot cheaper the a QF SYD-FRA one way ticket, just do a runner in FRA, Take hand baggage only and you would be OK.

Just had another look at the S7 fare and stopovers are permitted with this fare. :)

[Stefan Perkas]

Evening all,

As per 29SEP11 GDS timetable display, QANTAS from 26MAR12 begins 3 weekly Sydney – Santiago de Chile service on board Boeing 747-400 aircraft.

This will replace existing 3 weekly service to Buenos Aires, where the airline has already closed reservations.

Schedule as follows, note the reservation for this route is now open:

QF027 SYD1045 – 0955SCL 744 136
QF028 SCL1335 – 1755+1SYD 744 136

From: http://airlineroute.net/2011/09/29/qf-scl-s12/

[Jason H]

Just for those in London who are interested, after almost 41 years, Qantas' last 747 service will depart at 2230 local on Saturday 24 March as QF30 to Hong Kong.

[Jacob P]

Wow i'm actually stayin in LHR that night will try and get it on the ramp during the day.

[Kieran Wells]

This change also means that BA will have its last 772 doing the LHR-SIN-SYD BA15/16 ops in Sydney on sunday. Rotation to revert to 744 ops beginning with monday arrival.

[Jason H]

QF30 to Hong Kong and QF2 to Bangkok and Sydney leave around the same time on Saturday night. The two aircraft will be VH-OJG and VH-OJH

[Jason H]

VH-OJT just operated the last Qantas 747 service out of Melbourne as QF29 to Hong Kong.

No more scheduled 747 ops for Melbourne except for the odd Antarctica flight...

[Laurent Sanhard]

G YMMG BA 772 BA16 just departed Sydney , last 777 for the time being , back to 747 tomorrow

[Laurent Sanhard]

BA16

[Alex Lui]

British Airways also reduces down to 1 flight a day with the flight to and from Bangkok ceasing right?

Alex.

[Brock Little]

Yep that's right Alex. 747 now operates on LHR-SIN-SYD-SIN-LHR. No more 777 :(

[Joe Frampton]

Just for those in London who are interested, after almost 41 years, Qantas' last 747 service will depart at 2230 local on Saturday 24 March as QF30 to Hong Kong.

What is Qantas doing with their LHR slots? Are they selling them or keeping them?

[Neil Hogbin]

Think the QF slots at Heathrow are "On Loan" to BA until they decide if and when they may need them in the future. G-CIVD is the first 747 back on the BA15/16 rotation.

[Steve J H]

Hope this is in the right place.. now Qantas has changed QF23 & 24 to A330-200's instead of 747 as touted

[Jim M]

I think it was discussed somewhere,but QF23/24 rotation is changing to A330 equipment from June,I think it is. I could be wrong,or something could have changed.

Cheers
Jim

[Ash W]

Correct Jim, BKK is still 747's even though it is now QF23/24. The A330's start on 10th June.

[Steve J H]

thanks.. why the smaller aircraft.. is the demand not there ???

[Rowan McKeever]

BKK no longer has QF's own connecting traffic through to LHR, only with BA. And probably safe to assume most of that connecting traffic will have moved across to the 'super-hub' at SIN?

[Ash W]

If you think about it, a good portion of the people flying on the old QF1/2 would have been going through to/from London, not stopping in Bangkok, with only a portion having Bangkok as their final destination. Guess Qantas worked out that an A330 size a/c is the right size to do Bangkok as a standalone destination. So maybe no reduction in demand for Bangkok, but clearly other pax are now on the A380 services via Singapore.

Would be interesting to see if anyone has the load figures for the flight to see just how many are flying on QF23/24.

[Scott L.]

Is there any reason why QF favors SIN over BKK with the stopover A380 service to London?

[Laurent Sanhard]

more connections onwards to Europe , from Australia , Jetstar , Jetstar Asia feeding traffic through Singapore ??

[Ash W]

Singapore is a mini hub for Qantas with flights from Sydney, Melbourne Perth, Adelaide(some days) and Brisbane all converging in Singapore between about 1930 and 2230. They then connect with the 2 London and the Frankfurt flights that leave before midnight. Likewise in the Europe flights that arrive around 6pm then connect with the outbound flights to Australia.

Sure they could send one one of the A380's via Bangkok instead but then they don't have the capacity SIN-LHR and of course in Bangkok they don't have flights from other cities to combine with on the BKK-LHR leg.

[Steve J H]

Doesn't Darwin have a Jetstar flight to Singapore around that time as well ?

[Laurent Sanhard]

yep JQ 61 - A321 Darwin - Singapore