Jetstar to employ foreign pilots

[Greg McDonald]

From ninemsn.com.au:

Jetstar will use foreign pilots employed under 457 work visas in the first large-scale hiring of international flight crew in Australia since the pilots' strike of almost 20 years ago.

The budget Qantas offshoot has reportedly secured the support of federal Immigration Minister Chris Evans and Employment Minister Julia Gillard, to employ 75 foreign pilots.

Jetstar said the move, which was expected to be opposed by aviation unions, was needed to address the chronic pilot shortage, The Australian Financial Review reported on Monday.

"We are in a global industry and we should be able to source a global talent pool," Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce told the paper.

The foreign pilots will be used on Jetstar's domestic and international routes, and the first visa application was processed last week.

Jetstar has also recently hired 20 foreign cabin crew on 457 visas and has government approval to hire up to 60 more.

[Sarah C]

Well if there are not enough pilots in Australia, they have to get them from somewhere. Of course unions are going to oppose it - that is their job.

[Montague S]

what makes you think there isn't enough pilots in Australia, Sarah? the media you always give a bagging now seems to be the favoured source for you to bash the union.

surely there are enough Australian's in this country which Jetstar could hire as cabin crew? seems not...because they hire them on 457 visas too.

[Greg McDonald]

Wouldn't it be great if the governments of the day were to recognise the issues with pilot training costs in this country and actually try to fix the situation:mad:

Out of curiosity, is it as expensive to train overseas as it is here?

[Bernie P]

Wouldn't it be great if the governments of the day were to recognise the issues with pilot training costs in this country and actually try to fix the situation:mad:

Out of curiosity, is it as expensive to train overseas as it is here?

And, out of further curiosity, what does it cost to train up a pilot, and at what age would you be considered "TO OLD" to start? :confused:

[Greg McDonald]

And, out of further curiosity, what does it cost to train up a pilot, and at what age would you be considered "TO OLD" to start? :confused:

I'm told to expect around 80K for licencing alone...

[Lukas M]

If Rudd put training under HECS mabye we might start to get somewhere in the next 10 years

[Jarrad Wadmore]

There are enough pilots around, they just don't want to work for peanuts!

[Bernie P]

I'm told to expect around 80K for licencing alone...

ouch!!! :eek: I guess I won't be able to talk the 'Director of Home Affairs' into that then!!!

[Craig Lindsay]

I hear garuda has some good pilots

[Adam T]

It really grinds my gears when I hear about airlines whinging about a pilot shortage when they don't seem to make an effort to do anything about the situation. REX seems to be the only one who is willing to do anything about it (even if the contract they make you sign is bollocks)

I wanted nothing more than to be a commercial pilot, but the cost of training and the pathetic uptake of local pilots from aussie airlines forced me to look at something else.

[Rhys Xanthis]

what makes you think there isn't enough pilots in Australia, Sarah? the media you always give a bagging now seems to be the favoured source for you to bash the union.

surely there are enough Australian's in this country which Jetstar could hire as cabin crew? seems not...because they hire them on 457 visas too.

umm...you cant be serious? Have a look at REX, other regionals. They are winding down ops, decreasing capacity, suspending/cancelling routes.

Its really quite a mess!

However, i sincerely hope Jetstar train them good. And (not to be racist) dont hire Indonesians. Their air safety record is worse than an open sewer, and some of that rests with the pilots (Yogjakarta last year..)

[Montague S]

umm...you cant be serious? Have a look at REX, other regionals. They are winding down ops, decreasing capacity, suspending/cancelling routes.

Its really quite a mess!

However, i sincerely hope Jetstar train them good. And (not to be racist) dont hire Indonesians. Their air safety record is worse than an open sewer, and some of that rests with the pilots (Yogjakarta last year..)

Rex is your only example...at the very least Rex is doing something about the situation, Qantas appears to not let its pilots defect to Jetstar without losing their seniority...they could solve the problem by removing that stupid strangle-hold for a start.

http://www.rex.com.au/MediaAndPressClippings/ShowNews.aspx?Site=IR&nid=177

take a look CX and their MO, they'll train you as a relief pilot but you'll never get to land or take the damn plane off the ground...pretty essential part of being a pilot yet they won't teach you how to do it.

Qantas will offer a cadet program but at the end of it they won't even guarantee you a job.

[Marty H]

take a look CX and their MO, they'll train you as a relief pilot but you'll never get to land or take the damn plane off the ground...pretty essential part of being a pilot yet they won't teach you how to do it.

I was talking with one of our pilots who was heading to CX to take up that very role, and I thought it was a bit odd at the time also.

[Brenden S]

The whole reason why they need people for cabin crew from O/S is that they bond you something like 10k for the training on a salary of 20k a year with no overnights. Perhaps our local Jetstar cabin boys can enlighten what I have been told is true or not?

[Mick F]

umm...you cant be serious? Have a look at REX, other regionals. They are winding down ops, decreasing capacity, suspending/cancelling routes.

Like has been said, pilots do not work for peanuts. Said Regional Airlines are paying peanuts.

There is NO shortage of pilots. There is however, a shortage of experienced pilots.

If airlines would offer proper pay and conditions, then the shortage would be well reduced.

Mick

[Matt_L]

I agree with what Mick has said, he articulated it perfectly. The GA industry is grossly underpaid, particularly instructors who can work full time and expect 10-20 k a year which is shocking to say the least.
Something like a QF cadetship or Cathay one would be difficult to establish again ie for Jetstar, but I dont see why Jetstar couldnt follow Qantas Links lead in that traineeship program, it's just a throw in of the towl in my opinion- find pilots elsewhere not putting their experience as a concern but rather their ability to work for peanuts and terms and conditions the airlines always seem to dictate so tyranically.
Really this is a great indicator of where the aust aviation industry is going- just sad to see them resorting to this.
Matt

[Brendan Lawrence]

The whole reason why they need people for cabin crew from O/S is that they bond you something like 10k for the training on a salary of 20k a year with no overnights. Perhaps our local Jetstar cabin boys can enlighten what I have been told is true or not?

Fortunately that's incorrect... Nothing in the contract that I signed when commencing my ground school in December stated that I am subject to a "bond"-like repayment if I resign within the 6 month probation period. If there is one then it's certainly not 10k, more like 3k. I have heard rumours of this but there's nothing in writing in my contract about that so as far as I'm concerned it does not apply to me.

And in regards to base salary; more like 34k with flying allowance of $11.70 per block hour which adds roughly about 11-12k a year to the base. And whilst we are not rostered regular overnights like QF or DJ, we still do occasionally get sent on a trip to another base when there is a shortage or they have an 'out-of-hours' situation. We also get unscheduled overnights randomly when we have sector changes, delays or cancellations. I recently had a great Saturday night in Sydney because we were asked to operate the curfew-busting flight back into SYD (from OOL) instead of our return-to-base sector to MEL. Overnight allowance is about $80 per domestic overnight tax-free.

Anyway, just thought I'd give you the facts there Brenden, not having a go at you ;)... I believe this is more about the pilot shortage rather than cabin crew, mind you JQ and the other airlines have a massive pool of applicants to draw upon in Oz when it comes to CC so I don't understand why they feel the need to hire overseas applicants, unless of course it is for their already established BKK base?

[Raymond Rowe]

Could they also be sniffing for Jet Jocks for Vietnam.

[Mike Scott]

Maybe I should quit UA and return home earlier than planned....might as well work for peanuts there as here !!!!!:(

MS

[Gareth U]

The whole reason why they need people for cabin crew from O/S is that they bond you something like 10k for the training on a salary of 20k a year with no overnights. Perhaps our local Jetstar cabin boys can enlighten what I have been told is true or not?

While I do not work for Jetstar, I can put some truth to what you were told.

Recruitment is all through Team Jetstar now, who pay less than cabin crew employed under the Jetstar (and what was the Impulse) EBA.

Salary is closer to $30k and they receive an amount ($11?) per block hour, similar to the way flight attendants are paid in the US. The basic salary for crew on the old EBA is well over $40k, without the block hour allowance. Team Jetstar crew do not have access to Meal Break Not Taken penalty and they work longer hours. I believe their staff travel benefits are not on par.

Team Jetstar crew (and all crew employed in the last 2.5 years - even before Team Jetstar) are bonded, as you say. They also must provide their own accommodation if their ground school is not in their home base.

As for overnights I believe that Team Jetstar crew work both domestic and international and therefore have overnights. Even old JQ domestic crew get the occasional overnight.

MAM has also started bonding crew, I am told. Airnorth also bonded flight attendants in the past.

Sadly, when you have people willing to accept these conditions they will continue. Airlines want their cabin crew to leave after a short time to keep things 'fresh'. It is called environmental conditioning. Aer Lingus got in a lot of trouble over it a few years ago.

I am totally sorry for the tread drift. Just wanted to answer the question with some clarity.

Back to pilots. I think that the current 'shortage' is partly due to the above. There comes a time when people stop accepting less than what they are worth. The airlines will reap what the sow.

[Brenden S]

Thanks for the correct info. Bit hard sometimes with what your told in the west. A lot of Pilots,and flight attendants here ie Skippers, National Jet, Network are bonding people for 2-3 years for the training.

[Michael Morrison]

I don't see the issue.... Australians work for other airlines overseas, why cant foreigners come to Australia to work?

I'm sure with all the downturn in the states - just look at AA's 12% fleet reduction, there will be plenty of experienced pilots out on the market.

[Grant Smith]

I don't see the issue.... Australians work for other airlines overseas, why cant foreigners come to Australia to work?


Exactly Michael, as long as the foreign pilots are suitably trained and qualified (enough of the Garuda pilot bashing already :rolleyes:) there shouldn't be a problem..

[Rhys Xanthis]

(enough of the Garuda pilot bashing already :rolleyes:)

One shall never tire of such things!

[Brendan Lawrence]

While I do not work for Jetstar, I can put some truth to what you were told.

...Salary is closer to $30k and they receive an amount ($11?) per block hour, similar to the way flight attendants are paid in the US. The basic salary for crew on the old EBA is well over $40k, without the block hour allowance.

...I believe their staff travel benefits are not on par.


Referring back to my post Gareth, Team Jetstar cabin crew base salary is $34k, flying allowance of $11.70 per block hour which equates to roughly $11-12k on top of the base each year.

Base salary for "old EBA" crew is not well over $40k... It is around about $38-39k... What puts it ABOVE $40k is allowances earnt from occasional overnights and LIVE day allowances (penalty rates for working on home call-out days).

The main difference between Jetstar and Team Jetstar crew is not really much in OVERALL pay, but moreso flexibility of working hours and conditions. Our daily duty hour limitations are 2 hours longer than old EBA crew (15 hours with delays instead of 13). Maximum duty hours for a calendar-month roster period is 140 for Jetstar and 164 for Team Jetstar.

And staff travel IS on par with Jetstar crew. We fill out the same staff travel beneficiaries form as JQ crew and have access to the same Qantas staff travel website. I will become eligible for this in 14 days when I reach 6 months since my commencement date.

[Gareth U]

Base salary for "old EBA" crew is not well over $40k...

And staff travel IS on par with Jetstar crew.

G'day Brendan...

I think you will find that the base salary for crew employed under the old EBA is more than $40k. It is only Year 1 crew who sit at just under that amount... And of course there will soon be no more Year 1 crew under that contract. The payscale is for three years and is increased each year under the EBA. Team Jetstar agreement does not increase in that fashion. So I stand by my comment.

The Team Jetstar base salary has increased from what was initially released. That is good news.

I am glad Team Jetstar crew secured better staff travel than what was initially offered. Well done.

Anyway, back to pilots...

[D Chan]

take a look CX and their MO, they'll train you as a relief pilot but you'll never get to land or take the damn plane off the ground...pretty essential part of being a pilot yet they won't teach you how to do it.

Well after they come out of the cadet program (if you were referring to that) they start off as S/O. Of course S/Os are trained for landing or takeoff but during normal flights as you well know they'd be there to relief the Capt / F/O to extend crew hours during cruise. If the F/O or Captain is incapacitated they can takeover for landing or whatever.


btw Don't forget Qantaslink also has a cadet program, it's not only REX:
http://qantaslink.bfound.net/det-contact.aspx?jobid=58265&CoId=189&rq=1


There will always be plenty of pilots in Australia but with pilot recruitment the focus is really on the quality and suitability of the candidate instead of how many there are out there.


Wouldn't it be great if the governments of the day were to recognise the issues with pilot training costs in this country and actually try to fix the situation:mad:

It is a great idea but at the end of the day taxpayers may end up paying for individuals to join airlines. However that's sort of similar to HECS so I guess it is fair. But I do think it really should be the airlines' responsibility to recruit pilots and to ensure they get good pilots to meet their needs.

Out of curiosity, is it as expensive to train overseas as it is here?

I think CX used to train their cadets in Scotland and then they moved to South Australia.

[Gerry S]

Not enough pilots? Yea right... the correct version of the statement is: "There aren't enough who wanna be paid peanuts"... same problem everywhere!

Out of curiosity, is it as expensive to train overseas as it is here?
It's way cheaper there than where I am!

enough of the Garuda pilot bashing already
Want a "recommended" and a "not recommended list" of Garuda pilots? *grin* Just Kidding.

Gerry

[Chris Tully]

Brendan L, Gareth used to work for JQ befor moving across to QF. This was well before your time in the company so he is pretty qualified to comment on previous pat scales.

[Russell D]

What about some of the airlines lowering their standards a bit. It doesn't need to be a drastic cut but something reasonable. The hours required for entry seem awfully high, maybe shaving of a 200 or so might help the problem somewhat?

How much do JQ, QF, and DJ (and I guess now TT) pay pilots?

[Brendan Lawrence]

Brendan L, Gareth used to work for JQ befor moving across to QF. This was well before your time in the company so he is pretty qualified to comment on previous pat scales.

Fair enough Chris - I don't know the history of other members on this board, and I admit I don't know the Jetstar cabin crew EBA down to the letter. That's true Gareth I didn't take into account the 3 year scale, I was just going by starting salary.

But I did want to make sure that correct information/facts were raised with regards to Team Jetstar, rather than a lot of rumour which was initially spread back when it launched. Our base salary and flying allowance is also subject to a 3% increase each year of the agreement. And you're right in that staff travel initially was on shakey ground for us back in December but it was soon agreed that we would receive equal entitlements to the JQ crew which was good news.

Anyhow, thanks for that guys. (Sorry, back to pilots, just addressing previous posts!)

[Mick F]

Russell, what is so high about 500hrs Command??

That's the Qantas requirement. 500hrs Command can be obtained in about 8-9 months if you're employed in GA. Absolutely nothing.

Mick

[Russell D]

Russell, what is so high about 500hrs Command??

That's the Qantas requirement. 500hrs Command can be obtained in about 8-9 months if you're employed in GA. Absolutely nothing.

Mick

I fully agree with you Michael, but I was mainly referring to the fact that airlines have minimum requirements but seem to only accept people exceeding those minimum standards by significant amounts. For example, I'm guessing that not many people with the minimum 500hrs Command (or even a couple hundred more for that matter) get accepted to often. Naturally the airlines will take anyone with more experience over someone with lesser experience, but if they are really desperate for pilots, wouldn't increasing their acceptance rate of employing people at least help fill the gap?

On another note, the QF Cadetship program doesn't guarantee employment, not even in the desperately pilot-short Qantaslink alias.

P.S. Is there any place where rough estimates of pilot pay rates in Australia can be found? Or can someone shed some light for me please? Just like to know as personal information. Cheers

[Robert Zweck]

There are enough pilots around, they just don't want to work for peanuts!


Just about sums it up.

Quite a few jobs being advertised in the Friday Australian, the minimum requirements are a lot lower than only a few years ago