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Oliver Gigacz
19th October 2011, 03:54 PM
I filmed the take off of (My flight to Sydney), using the new iPhone 4S. I think it looks great for a camera phone. Remember to watch in HD.

The window was quite dirty, and the sun was facing me, so there was a lot of glare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJ9W1MiUb0

Aircraft was Boeing 767-300ER - VH-ZXE.

First time on ZXE.
Ninth time on a 763.
74th flight overall.

Mick F
19th October 2011, 04:09 PM
Oliver, how did you film it when your phone was supposed to be turned off?

Paul Waters
19th October 2011, 04:23 PM
What's the iPhone 4S like Oliver?

And why did you still have an electronic device on after the cabin crew would have instructed you to turn it off via the cabin PA?

Paul

Jacob P
19th October 2011, 05:21 PM
Good vid!
Come on guys give him a break i'm sure we all at some stage or another do take-off shots/vids. I mean it does absolutely nothing to put the aircraft into any form of danger by filming a take-off I even sometimes leave my phone on for the whole flight.

Jarrad Phillips
19th October 2011, 05:22 PM
lol Oliver you should have expected the sky cops to jump all over your post!! But thanks for sharing regardless!

Paul Waters
19th October 2011, 07:42 PM
CAR 1988, Regulation 309A:

(1) Subject to subregulation (2), the operator, or pilot in command, of an Australian aircraft may give an instruction, either orally or in writing, prohibiting or limiting the doing of an act on board the aircraft during flight time in the aircraft.

(2) The operator, or pilot in command, must not give an instruction unless he or she is satisfied on reasonable grounds that the instruction is necessary in the interests of the safety of air navigation.

(3) An instruction does not bind a person unless it is communicated to the person.

(4) A person who is bound by an instruction must comply with the instruction.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

(5) An offence against subregulation (4) is an offence of strict liability.

Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

It angers me when people quite happily break the law, regardless of whether they think it has any effect on the flight or not.

For those who can't understand what the above says, here it is in plain english:

What you are told over the cabin PA by the flight attendants, is basically a direction from the Pilot in Command. Should you choose to ignore these instructions (ie. leaving your electronic device or your phone on when you have been told to turn it off), you are committing an offence of strict liability (look up that section of the Criminal Code).

As the Pilot in Command of such flights like the one you were on, I don't find it amusing that you are ignoring my instructions.

Paul

Nigel C
19th October 2011, 07:43 PM
Well said.

Chris B.
19th October 2011, 08:07 PM
Absolutely couldn't agree more!

Lukas M
19th October 2011, 08:41 PM
Bit different up front is it Paul......

http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?&aircraft=-2&airline=-2&category=2&photog=-2&country=Australia&keywords=ApproAch&keywordrange=all&keywordlimiter=2&year=-2&sort=1&genre=1&display=&displaymode=1&mainsearch=search&newsort=12&size=-2
(http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?offset=0&where=search%7C-2%7C-2%7C-2%7C2%7CApproAch%7C15%7C1%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C-2%7C-2%7C-2%7C2%7C%7C%7C15%7C1%7C%7C-2%7C-2%7C%7C%7C%7Call%7C2%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C-2%7C%7C%7C1%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C)

Owen H
19th October 2011, 08:50 PM
You mean up front using the still camera which is NOT prohibited from use, compared to a phone camera which IS prohibited from use?

Nigel C
19th October 2011, 08:54 PM
I think there'll only ever be one winner in this argument, and they travel in the pointy end ;)

Paul Waters
19th October 2011, 08:58 PM
Lukas,
Couple of things to point out.

1. If the Captain chooses to let someone use an electronic device, then there is no breach of the Civil Aviation Regulations is there? Unless Oliver had permission (I highly doubt it), then he's in breach of the CAR's.

2. Oliver can operate his phone (in flight mode) when instructed by the crew, just like he shouldn't be operating his phone when instructed by the crew.

3. There are very very few Australian airline cockpits, in the take off and landing phases, in amongst all those photo's you've referred to me. Saying something isn't it?

My point still stands, Oliver has breached a regulation by not conforming to what the crew (in effect the PIC) has instructed him to do.

Paul

Mick F
19th October 2011, 09:05 PM
Well said Paul.

I've got an Air Law exam coming up soonish, perhaps you can sit it for me, :D.

Mick

Jason H
19th October 2011, 09:10 PM
(2) The operator, or pilot in command, must not give an instruction unless he or she is satisfied on reasonable grounds that the instruction is necessary in the interests of the safety of air navigation.

Is leaving a mobile phone on actually an issue of safety? What does it actually do?

Jakef
20th October 2011, 07:01 AM
Oh my, I'm sure the plane was only moments away from falling out of the sky right there.....
If the phone was in airplane mode than it makes absolutely NO difference to anything, as it transmits or receives nothing. Filming a takeoff isn't hurting anyone, or risking safety providing airplane mood is on (If it isn't the risk is still debatable).

Surely people aren't this precious?

Daniel M
20th October 2011, 08:10 AM
Yes, sure, lets all disregard CAR's then ! I'm guessing you're the same person that drives through red lights early in the morning because there isn't any other traffic around !

Mick F
20th October 2011, 09:02 AM
Jakef,
Whether you think it makes a difference or not, as Paul has pointed out, you are breaching a Civil Aviation Regulation by not doing what the Captain of the aircraft has asked you to do.

Jason,
I'm not up with all the science of exactly what a mobile phone can do, but from my experience it can create rather distracting buzzing sounds through the radio's of aircraft when going in and out of reception. Whether this does anything to navigation equipment, I'm not sure, but I imagine it has the potential to do so.

The point Paul has made still stands however, the rules are written for good reason. If you are directed to do something, for god's sake, just do it.

Mick

Dave Dale
20th October 2011, 10:27 AM
I wonder how Oliver's enthusiasm for aviation is going? I am in awe on how the laws are brought out in every regard to demonstrate his misgivings and how he had broken them. However, the same notions of law obedience apply throughout our whole life and not just on an aircraft. I am quite certain that we all have disregarded the law at some point. I cannot help but think that a certain hypocrisy lies within some of these posts. Although the point of Oliver filming when he should not have has been made time and again, I feel that it serves no purpose to keep smacking him down for it.

Dave

David Knudsen
20th October 2011, 10:53 AM
I think the point has been made here, please keep any further replies on topic.

Nigel C
20th October 2011, 01:22 PM
With all due respect, I think the thread has remained on topic. As part of the thread initiation, a video was made during the take-off phase of a flight and that is exactly what's being discussed here.

Jakef
20th October 2011, 03:57 PM
@Daniel M: Actually I'm the type of person who always stops at red lights. Not a comparable issue, if the phone was in airplane mode than it is not transmitting, receiving, or doing anything that makes it different to an ordinary camera.
Fair enough it may be in the CAR's but still, was he hurting anybody? No. Was it a safety risk? No.
You just have to look at the tens of thousands of takeoff/landing videos on youtube to see that this is a fairly common practice. I've been sitting next to someone on a flight who was still sending and receiving text messages throughout the entire flight when she had reception, I'm still alive so it can't be that bad.

To keep it on topic, great video :)


PS: If you want to see something really dangerous in regards to Australian aviation on youtube, you can certainly find it...

James S.
20th October 2011, 04:20 PM
The Il-76 at Canberra? ;)

Brad Varney
20th October 2011, 04:39 PM
This one's really bad! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u7sXslgo8g

NeilP
20th October 2011, 05:47 PM
Anyone here driven 62km/h in a 60 zone?...

Mick F
20th October 2011, 05:54 PM
Haha, Neil, even I had to laugh at that.

It's good to see enthusiasm for aviation. But I'm also a strict follower in the rules. My job depends on it, so I would expect those who fall under my care (my passengers) to follow reasonable directions given to them from myself. If this includes turning your mobile phone off, whether you think it's fine to leave it in flight mode or not, then I expect you to do that.

Mick

Jakef
20th October 2011, 09:17 PM
^^If I may ask, why? If the device is not transmitting or receiving in any way what reasons are there for wanting them switched off? Is it in case of an emergency so that people aren't distracted? In that situation I would imagine most normal people would drop whatever they are holding and get the heck out but you never know... Or are pilots of the big metal just self conscience that someone might film a less than perfect landing? :P

Mobile phones clearly pose no risk to general aviation, my flying instructor sometimes pairs his phone with headset via bluetooth if he is expecting an important call. Doesn't seem to create any noise or buzzing. Many headsets are marketed with the ability to be able to do bluetooth pairing, so it must not be a risk.
(No risk that is, provided you only use it when at cruise altitude when the workload has decreased and certainly not during takeoff, climb-out, descent, approach or landing!!)

Mick F
20th October 2011, 09:29 PM
Jake,
I don't fly large airliners. My aircraft is equipped with multiple amounts of equipment that can be subject to inteference from mobile phones.

My question to you, is why do you feel the need to question what is a reasonable request? If that safety card in front of you says no mobile phones and the Captain of the aircraft asks you to turn your phone off, based on what knowledge and experience do you think you would know better?

I know that in a GA aircraft mobile phone's pose little or no risk by way of electronic interference, but how can you be so sure they don't pose a risk in a modern airliner, equipped with EFIS cockpits and fly-by-wire technology?

Mick

Zac M
20th October 2011, 11:32 PM
The Qantas safety card says you may use cameras and video cameras during periods where other electronic devices must be switched off, what is the difference between using a video camera and a phone in flight mode doing the same thing?

Oliver- I cannot view the video on my phone but I will when
I get to a computer and I am sure it will be great!!!

Maikha Ly
20th October 2011, 11:58 PM
Zac, if I recall, I believe the Qantas safety card also says Furby's must be switched off as well!

I'm not overly sure what risk they posed though

Radi K
21st October 2011, 12:13 AM
Isn't QF installing mobile technology on the 767 so you can use your phone onboard? The no electronic devices onboard modern aircraft is null and void in my opinion. Listening to onboard commands from the PIC is a different story.

Anyone got the evidence that mobile phones interfere with onboard instrumentation, scientifically proven?

Paul Waters
21st October 2011, 12:28 AM
Listening to onboard commands from the PIC is a different story

My point exactly, thank you Radi.

And for the purposes of onboard announcements, while they are made by the cabin crew, the directions are essentially coming from the PIC.

Oliver, Jake, Zac, Lukas, take note.

I'm not overly familiar with the Qantas safety cards, but I understand that even camera's etc. are banned for take off and landing until such time as the seatbelt sign has been switched off.

Cheers

Paul

Zac M
21st October 2011, 12:44 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/denon/3636830787/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The print is small but:
"Devices not Restricted from use-Devices required for the essential support of human life, such as medical implants and other medical devices that have prior approval by Qantas, Global Positioning recievers (GPS), Electric Shavers, Video and still cameras which are powered electronically, pocket calculators, other devices with micro-cell batteries and solar cells"

Jakef
21st October 2011, 07:15 AM
My question to you, is why do you feel the need to question what is a reasonable request? If that safety card in front of you says no mobile phones and the Captain of the aircraft asks you to turn your phone off, based on what knowledge and experience do you think you would know better?

I'm not denying that is is a reasonable request, nor am I saying I know any better. I think there is every right to question the reasoning behind it, and yes the PIC may have asked for it via the flight attendants and technically that is the law, but still, I think there is every right to question why?
I think that wanting to know the reasoning behind it is not an unreasonable request.

I wonder if the reaction to this video would be different if the OP had taken the video with a video camera and put that in the description instead of mentioning the dreaded p word (phone).

NeilP
21st October 2011, 07:59 AM
Then we have nothing to argue about, and this forum would be terribly boring...:cool:

Greg McDonald
21st October 2011, 08:20 AM
I'd agree with you Jake. It's probably about time that the powers that be draggged themselves into the 21st century and rewrote some of the archaic laws in every field, not just aviation. There have been a lot of studies done recently and the general advise (at least in scientific circles) is that if it can't transmit and it can't receive then it's impossible for it to affect any aircraft electronics. Common sense says that this really does make the device just a camera. Then again I've been told on a number of occasions to turn my digital camera off for takeoff and landing (strangely always when flying DJ) when this too makes no common sense. As the old saying goes...common sense is not so common :).
There are also a number of airlines (including Qantas I think) that are actively testing and considering allowing texting and calling to and from mobile phones while in the air (how I desperately hope that voice calls will never be allowed!!!) . It'll be interesting to see how without any alterations to the aircraft this will suddenly become ok!
I guess the bottom line is that, regardless of if the law makes sense or is correct, it IS the law and therefore must be blindly followed.

Mick F
21st October 2011, 10:06 AM
Greg,
Totally agree, perhaps there does need to be more up to date research done on the topic and the rules overhauled. But as you say, in the meantime, the rules still must be followed regardless of ones personal thoughts.

Zac,
Thanks for that. Having never used a camera for take off or landing I have never bothered to take notice.

Mick

Owen H
21st October 2011, 09:42 PM
Greg - Alterations to the aircraft are indeed made for these sort of things, and in some cases the aircraft are required to undergo interference testing prior to use.

Besides which, it will be permitted but NOT during takeoff and landing.

ILS (and GPS for that matter) signals are very sensitive. Do some research about interference, and you'll see why the CONSERVATIVE option is taken. You have absolutely NO need to use a phone or electronic device during takeoff and landing, and so the industry is not prepared to spend the enormous amounts of money required to prove that it is (or isnt) safe.

Jake

Yes the reaction would have been different because he would not have been breaking the instructions.

Also, the reason why has been made clear - interference. It is difficult to positively prove that no interference will occur during takeoff or landing, and so it is banned. If you would like to prove to the airlines it is safe I'm sure they'll listen - but I hope you have deep, deep pockets to do the necessary research.

Darryl Schlodder
22nd October 2011, 10:53 AM
Just watch Mythbusters, they proved that mobile phones do not create any interference at all.

Owen H
22nd October 2011, 08:01 PM
There is Mythbusters "proof" that it has no effect.

There is scientific research that has showed mobile phones interfering with ILS signals on large aircraft (albeit older generation ones).

Which one do you think the body responsible for the safety of air operations should use, when we're flying low visibility approaches?

Brock Little
22nd October 2011, 08:28 PM
Mythbusters were restricted by the FAA to conduct ground tests only though.

Daniel M
22nd October 2011, 08:52 PM
lol @ using mythbusters as a excuse to remove restrictions !

David N
7th January 2012, 02:41 PM
Hi

I have been interested in doing a Trip Report with a Take Off or Landing Video.
Although, I have Not and will Not use my phone to do it.

Just wanted to ask...

My Lumix Camera has a HD video, am I allowed to use this and post the footage without been shot down in flames for breaking the law? :confused:

Owen H
7th January 2012, 04:21 PM
Which airline are you planning to fly with?

David N
7th January 2012, 05:13 PM
G'day Owen

Emirates in a couple of weeks and Qantas mid year

Regards
David