Qantas Shutdown

[Andi O]

Alan Joyce has just held a press conference announcing the lock out of some Qantas staff and has shutdown the airline effective immediately.

[Sarah C]

Stunned.......Virgin must think Christmas has come early. Ball is now back in the unions court. Government has to become involved now.

[Darren T.]

This will live in History.

[Jarden S]

Wow that's a major change in events.
AJ also said in today's courier mail that the airline could loose 17,000 jobs within a year if the industrial action continues.

[Grant Smith]

A day after his pay rise was approved by the shareholders... Coincidence?

[John Arena]

All employees covered under the Unions have been 'locked out' according to the press conference

John

[Grahame Hutchison]

From Australian Business Traveller ...


Qantas has cancelled every single worldwide Qantas-operated flight immediately, until further notice, with the airline advising that "customers booked on Qantas flights should not go to the airport until further notice".
The airline is locking out all its unionised workforce: pilots, engineers, baggage handlers, ground staff and catering staff -- which means that it simply can't fly.
In a press conference today at Qantas' Sydney headquarters, CEO Alan Joyce announced that there will be "no further Qantas domestic departures or international departures anywhere in the world".
Aircraft currently in the sky will land as planned.
"Jetstar flights, QantasLink flights and Qantas flights across the Tasman operated by Jetconnect will continue," an airline statement said.
Qantas is requesting that only passengers within the next 24 hours call its contact centres: 13 13 13 from within Australia.
The airline says: "A full refund will be available to any customer who chooses to cancel their flight because it has been directly affected by the grounding of the fleet. Full rebooking flexibility will be available to customers who wish to defer their travel."
"Assistance with accommodation and alternative flights, as well as other support, will be offered to customers who are mid-journey."

[Carsten Bauer]

I couldn't believe this when I heard on the radio "Qantas cancelling flights" I thought it was the usual news we've been hearing all week, but then I checked my twitter, and saw qantas announce all flights grounded. Thought it was a joke at first.

[Andrew M]

Disgusting Alan
Disgusting

[Joe Frampton]

I work in the travel industry... (major gulp for the work ahead in the next few days).....

You have to say, this is truly historical, Qantas will either come out of this as the winner, with the unions crushed, or it's game over for Qantas as we know it in it's current form.... either way if you're travelling or planning to travel on Qantas in the immediate future, you're well and truly ****ed

and who thought it could only happen to Tiger :eek:

[Andrew P]

imho, a very wise move, now Gillard MUST get involved and send all to arbitration

i understand security of employment/staffing levels cannot be referred by the gov't to arbitration, so in end union loses, which is the proper resolution

[Andrew M]

I don't see the unions just backing down (at least for 24 hours)

[Joe Frampton]

crunch...... country grinds to a halt

in so many ways we don't even realise

[Raymond Rowe]

Joyce has done what he was put in to do.Make jetstar the major company and close down Qantas.

[Stephen Brown]

The man is way out of his depth. Handling negotiation like confrontation.

Then again he just getting what he wants. Destroying Qantas and a Australian Icon. It's like a foreign boss coming in and wanting to turn Vegemite Blue.

Unbelievable.

[Andrew M]

It's Xmas early for Joyce

Pay rise - Check
Giving Qantas a further bad name - Check
Jetstar flights full - Check
Virgin flights full - Check

Now if only he could get 40 x A320's up and running overnight for Jetstar and he'd be laughing

[damien b]

Not that surprising really - its the 98 water front dispute all over again but this time it looks like the government isn't involved. Certainly a game changer and a brave move. Federal Government will need to get invovled now. Hate to be a QANTAS worker or passenger right now.

[John Arena]

if only my Christmas present came early

- Get rid of Joyce
- Rebuild QFA to its former glory
- 787's to Qantas

John

[Andrew M]

John - Indeed

Virgin Australia fares have gone through the roof!!!!!!!

[Jaryd stock]

Is the freight that comes into Sydney via SQ/MH/EK/CPA and so on handled by Qantas ground crews? If so are they also locked out...

[Alexander.L]

Is it cheaper to shut down then run with strikes?

[Anthony T]

On the spotting side of things, expect to see some new liveries on the domestic scene, if this isn't resolved by monday morning.

Virgin are calling on Etihad, Delta & NZ to be ready to send aircraft if required.

Although it is likely that Etihad will do the VA Abu Dhabi run, and Delta all of the trans pac V Australia flights with NZ doing as much of PB's tasman stuff as they can.

This will release the 777's and PB 737's for domestic work.

Also it is the start of the NW schedules so plenty of spare capacity available from Europe as well.

[Nigel C]

It may release the B777's for domestic work, but I'm not sure there are remote domestic bays available for passenger bussing operations for a B777. Happy to be corrected.



Without knowing any of the ins and outs of the average Qantas worker's current employment conditions, were they really being screwed over by Qantas management in the lead up to this dispute, or are they being unreasonable in what they're asking for? Were things really that bad for the average worker when it appears there are plenty of others seemingly happy with their employment in other ground handling companies (obviously I'm leaving the pilots out of this one)?

Surely it's time for a bit of give and take on both sides before everyone loses everything.

[Montague S]

have to be the dumbest CEO in Australia.

[Kirk C]

TWU - Disrupting Australia

[Alexander.L]

I think the board told AJ to do it for a 71% payrise. The board is the directing, AJ is just the PR man.

[Adam P....]

Any likelihood of the SYD curfew getting lifted in response to this?? Would seem crazy not to imo.

[Jaryd stock]

Curfew won't be lifted.

There are two brand new KC-30's sitting up at Amberly these could be put to good use...

[David C]

Fortunate that I'm leaving LHR tonight on another carrier , but there again QF were never in the original equation anyway ... wonder why ?.

Dave C

[Ricky T]

I have a flight with them Monday morning. Fingers crossed.

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Any chances of seeing Virgin Atlantic doing ops to/from YMML to assist?

Stuart

[James S.]

Can they seriously get rid of the bloody idiot and get someone who can actually run an airline AKA do a Continental/Gordon Bethune.

[Nigel C]

Any likelihood of the SYD curfew getting lifted in response to this?? Would seem crazy not to imo.
What would be the benefit in that? There's less than half the flights in the air without Qantas flying.

[Brad Varney]

If they had to, who would fire the CEO?

the shareholders?

[Scott L.]

I am just reading the material provided by Qantas at http://www.keepqantasflying.com.au/.

The demands seem to me to be a usual starting point for negotiations from a Union. Where are the current negotations at? Does anyone know?

Qantas are either not negotiating or the unions are not compromising. Either way, can't both sides see the futility of protracted action. The reputational damage and the loss of current patronage is surely damaging both parties.

It reeks of hypocrisy that the CEO gets a nice pay rise but theres' a lock out on anyone else?

[Cam L]

What a sad day.

Does anyone know if VA will up their prices???

[Andrew M]

Prices go up with supply and demand...

As there is now a serious lack of supply and a huge demand prices will go up!

Qantas will be flying again soon though

[Montague S]

And Joyce has the cheek to talk about the cost to the carrier, what about the fact that te airline now has to accommodate a few thousand people around the globe?

[Jack Melon]

Meh, knew this was going to happen eventually. For those who are saying, virgin fares going up, well duh, the flights are packed, so they go up!

Bye Bye Qantas.

[Michael Cleary]

Just had a look at Virgin flights SYD-MEL and return on Monday 31/10 and the cheapest is $303.50 ,so Virgin will be doing well and 100% loads no doubt.

[Rowan McKeever]

Virgin have special fares in place for 'ex-Qantas' passengers... a fare increase seems almost logical to dissuade unnecessary new bookings & to keep seats open for stranded pax first.

[Warren P.]

I've been watching this brew for quite a while, and hope that it will be resolved soon. I live and work in a remote aboriginal community in the middle of the desert about 1300km from Alice Springs. I'm due to go on leave on November 10 and fly out of Alice Springs back to Sydney with Qantas, as they are currently the only airline that flies out of the tourist town.

Regards,
Warren.

[Grant Smith]

Qantas will be back flying tomorrow morning...

Fair Work Australia will rule that arbitration is required and to come back in 21 days with an answer...

Put 20 onnit!

[Joe Frampton]

If they're keeping Jetstar, etc. flying, what about jetconnect? Surely they ain't really Qantas mainline either are they?

[Andrew Coggan]

Jetconnect are still flying Joe.

[JoshuaD]

Jetconnect is still flying, as it is an NZ Subsidaty, and was mentioned specifically as still flying

[Joe Frampton]

.

[Ray P.]

AJ got his pay rise because he has demonstrated that he has the gonads to stay the course. Agree with him or not, he is certainly not a shrinking violet.

It will be interesting to see how the union-backed Labor Government will get involved, I have already seen Albanese on TV having a couple of digs at Qantas. The Government has petitioned Fair Work Australia to terminate all protected actions currently undertaken in the industrial dispute and I believe that the union has said it will strenuously fight against that. Interesting times.

[Arthur T]

The impact for Qantas to shutdown temporarily is huge and I sincerely hope the Government can take some immediate action as follows:

1. Immediately suspend implementation of curfew at Sydney Airport until the backlog is cleared.
2. Immediately liaise with Sydney Buses, CityRail, V/Line, Queensland Rail, Adelaide Metro, ACTION and any other Metropolitan and Regional Transport Operators to provide emergency feeder service for straded passengers, for example to use a Disel Hauled 4x 8 Car OSCAR train to operate between Sydney and Melbourne.
3. Immediately to call an emergency Parliament meeting to revoke the Qantas Sale-off Act to Temporarily Nationalise Qantas on a basis of National Interest by buying out shares available that the Australian Government to become the largest shareholder (I emphasis it should not be a 100% buyout) that the airline can operate and manage properly for a period of time before handing back to the market.
4. Consider to Temporarily allow other International Airlines such as Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Emirates and Ethiad to operate under strict conditions to feeder stranded Qantas passengers domestically. Such arrangements must cease when operations at Qantas returns normal.

I would describe the decision by Alan Joyce is disgraceful. He is definitely damaging the Australian brand also is not working for the National Interest of Australia. Should his claims about Qantas' financial situation is true, he should call the Government to bail Qantas out because everyone knows Qantas is too big to fail.

I hope the Aviation watchdog can take suitable action to avoid such things happening ever again.

[Andi O]

Your postings never fail to make me laugh, Arthur
:)

[Michael Mak]

Ditto :)

[Robert S]

Qantas will be back flying tomorrow morning...

Fair Work Australia will rule that arbitration is required and to come back in 21 days with an answer...

Regardless of the FWA decision, it is currently looking unlikely that Qantas will be flying in the morning. They are hearing more evidence now then reportedly will adjourn again for an undisclosed number of hours. The reported assumption from everyone is that a decision will come out some time during the course of tomorrow.

EDIT: Adjourned until 2pm AEDT Sunday.

[Anthony T]

QF12 (OQI) is the only QF aircraft left in the sky, it got out of LAX at 1638 AEDT, just in time.

[Sarah C]

To be fair, Virgin should be able to cash in...........they suffered when they had those IT problems and the other airlines profitted from it. Even without this action, buy a ticket with short notice means there is not a lot left and you pay more.

Whatever happens today, hopefully we know after 2pm today when the airline is back int he year.

[Nigel C]

Arthur,

1. with Albanese's electorate on the doorstep of Sydney, the curfew ain't going to be lifted anytime soon
2. someone will need to repair a damaged bridge near the NSW/VIC border for trains to resume
3. Awesome, so you allow foreign airlines in to fly passengers, but who's going to service these extra aircraft? It's not like the pilot's dispute where the ground handlers engineers, cleaners etc were still operating. Whose terminal space are they going to use? And who's going to operate and service the aircraft loading equipment, check-in facilities, cleaning of aircraft etc etc etc
4. Why should the Fed Govt bail out a private enterprise because of a dispute caused by Unions and management going head to head over internal issues? And if they start bailing companies out now, where do they draw the line and stop bailing out other failing businesses?


Bottom line is this, the Unions started this ongoing industrial action and the airline through Joyce bit back hard. If this dispute continues, I think it's only giving Qantas management the justification it needs to outsource whatever jobs it can, both locally and overseas.

[Nigel C]

To be fair, Virgin should be able to cash in...........


Just like Qantas did when Ansett collapsed.....

[Anthony T]

From the Etihad website :

Etihad Airways to provide capacity for Australian travellers during Qantas dispute

Etihad Airways, the Abu Dhabi-based airline partner of Virgin Australia, has pledged its support to Australian travellers disrupted by the current Qantas dispute.

The Chief Executive Officer of Etihad Airways, James Hogan, said he would be working closely with Virgin Australia Chief Executive John Borghetti to assess and meet Australia’s capacity requirements during what was certain to be an unsettling period for Australian travellers.

"We are already looking at a range of options to support Virgin Australia in its home market by freeing up additional capacity if required," Mr Hogan said.

He said potential options being discussed with Virgin Australia included:

▪ operating a shuttle service between Sydney and Melbourne on certain days of the week using Etihad Airways aircraft; and

▪ operating a daily flight between Sydney and Bangkok.

[A McLaughlin]

Arthur

...oh, never mind!

[Mike W]

Is this all part of Joyce's 'Grand Plan' for Qantas, hatched when he was still head of Jetstar? According to Joyce (and I believe him to some extent), Qantas, if carries on the way it is, it slowly withers and dies under competitive pressure from other carriers with lower cost bases, or makes radical changes to their cost base (I suspect this means taking most of Qantas International overseas) or, he lowers the cost base in Aus but I suspect this is a short term fix and the overseas option is preferred. Either way, the Unions lose, the Government loses and I guess the country loses.

By the way, I believe this is mostly about International ops with Domestic copping collateral damage, but I guess the lower costs will (if successful) be beneficial to intra-Australian ops as well.

[Justin L]

On a lighter note, there was a great tweet on the news.com.au website from a reader which said: "I still call Australia home. I have to - I can't fly out of the country @qantas".

[Alexander.L]

Arthur OSCAR train runs on electricity and the electricity ends somewhere near wollongong.

[Maikha Ly]

Actually... it runs out at Macathur (The next stop from Campbelltown).

[Grahame Hutchison]

The Sun Herald today ...


Qantas Executives and the Board will not be paid during the lockout.

[Nigel C]

But I bet the Union officials orchestrating their side of the dispute will be...


Arthur OSCAR train runs on electricity and the electricity ends somewhere near Wollongong.
And that train line ends at Bomaderry (Nowra). ;)

[Michael Mak]

Electricity trains go from Kiama to Newcastle, Lithgow and Macarthur.

[Dave Dale]

Unless the lockout drags on for weeks or months, I am sure the days not paid to the board during the dispute will almost be unnoticeable.


Dave

[Anthony T]

Although Arthur T's post are amusing, he did actually suggest diesel haulage of the OSCAR set.

[Philip Argy]

At first blush the union demands are excessive and the death by 1,000 cuts/slow bake threats intolerable. So in my view Qantas had to bring things to a head in the only way the Fair Work legislation allows.

But the timing of the revised remuneration package reflects poor judgement. It was always going to be red rag to a bull stuff and should have been deferred for a year. Institutional shareholders were always going to back Joyce against the unreasonable union demands so the AGM was never going to vote against the remuneration package as it would have sent the wrong message. Emboldened by the overwhelming shareholder support, I suspect that Saturday's decision was a bit easier than it otherwise might have been.

One thing that doesn't seem to have rated a mention is the role of Peter Cosgrove on the board. I can't believe he isn't bringing to bear his extensive defence force and civilian experience in the current context.

[Radi K]

If Joyce had any brains, he would not have accepted this pay rise.

Quote of the day!

[Arthur T]

1. With regards to Foreign Airlines Operating Emergency shuttle service, they should park at the Qantas Terminal using existing staff of that foreign airline for all on-aircraft operations. For ground operations, the Government can try to invite volunteers (which I believe most of us would love to join) to temporaily move the luggages, do security checks and print boarding passes/waiting at gates etc. It is necessary and it is eqv. to charter military aircrafts to clear the backlog, is just the Government to charter other airlines to do this job.
2. Using ground transport means to clear the backlog is necessary. The Melbourne Cup is coming and a lot of passengers will be flying this week. If we don't use buses, trains and ferries to transfer passengers we will see 100000 passengers stranded each day. This will bring great impact to the economy and tourism. We shall let Australia moving again immediately even it will be much slower.
3. As I said earlier, the amount the Government should bail out is subject to the point where Australian Government will just enough to be the major shareholder of Qantas based on Today's market price. That is, I need Australia Government to immediately take control the airline. Look at their books and to use government power to make just and equitable decisions towards the long term developement of Qantas and JetStar.

I believe with Government being in control, Qantas and Jetstar will combine and the Government will be able to provide Qantas staff a new and fair employment agreement whilst the cost will be significantly reduced.

Re Chris: Yes, perhaps things will be reversed if Qantas Executive did not take the wage rise, and my view might change.

[Kirk C]

It would be nice to see the new and the old EBA's published on the internet so the public can see who's being fair and reasonable.

[Andrew M]

The pay rise was planned not sure how that's relevant to the issues at Qantas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQlVhfWJII

[Nigel C]

NigelC: Let's dig into our savings and chip in a $100 or so to make sure the Qantas Executive staff don't suffer any great hardship during this lock-out.

I'm sure they're doing just fine.

My point is, I personally don't know of the last time a senior union official went without pay while the workers they are there to 'help' were out on strike. And if this action, as advised and started by the union movement, results in mass job losses will the TWU heavyweights keep paying off the mortgages of those who lost out? I don't think so.

From the outside looking in, and with no intimate detail of what's happened behind closed doors to get the situation to where it is now, I think both sides have probably handled things poorly and all sides will suffer as a result. They will only have themselves to blame.

[Martin Buzzell]

From the outside looking in, and with no intimate detail of what's happened behind closed doors to get the situation to where it is now, I think both sides have probably handled things poorly and all sides will suffer as a result. They will only have themselves to blame.

Yep, this how I feel.

Buzz

[Michael Cleary]

Gotta wonder about the decision to immediately ground (no departures after the announcement). Imagine being dumped in Bangkok and having to wade through the stinking flooded streets.

Then again, nothing seems to make sense with this circus now.

Maybe time to buy some overpriced things from the QFF store to use up my points and also ring the bank to kill off future Credit Card points transfers too.

[matthew mcdonald]

Qantas 31 had actually begun to taxi out to the runway when the decision was made. It had return to the gate and all 400 or so people were de-boarded.

[Michael Mak]

Same thing happened to a flight from Sydney to Melbourne. One of my friends was on it and he said the flight was on the runway (or close to) and had to return to the gate and everyone had to de-board. His holiday to Melbourne had gone up in smoke.

[Oliver Gigacz]

An Etihad A340-600 will be used to operate between MEL and SYD, from tomorrow.

[Laurent Sanhard]

The unions only have themselves to Blame ! , they can't continue to drag Qantas through the mud with no consequences , If Qantas is to survive long-term (not just the next couple of years ) , it needs to be a lot more lean , ie cut costs and get rid of the deadwood , The new Qantas that comes out of all this will be very similar to the current Jetstar , it has too if it wants to survive !

[Lukas M]

An Etihad A340-600 will be used to operate between MEL and SYD, from tomorrow.
Not bookable yet?

Source?

[Nigel C]

I thought this idea was still subject to regulatory approval. And where on domestic do you propose they load/unload the aircraft from?

[Steve S... 2]

It all boils down to natural human behaviour that every human being is born with to varying degrees = greed.

lol

[Dave Dale]

A bit of interesting reading regarding Virgin's plans over the week:

http://www.virginaustralia.com/AboutUs/Media/NewsandPressReleases/P_018955.html

[Danfeng Qian]

Maybe Virgin could check with Air China, as CA has one A330-200 grounded in Sydney for the whole day.

[Luke A]

The Qantas Unions are apparantly going to use this add as their new promo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEMFG37-a_s

[David Sims]

Such a sad couple of days for all concerned.
I would say that this is an end to Qantas as we have known it.

[Matt D]

Well done Alan Joyce. I'm pleased someone has stood up to the unions/associations and their 1980's thinking. If it takes stopping business to bring it to a head, so be it.

In a global market place global salaries and conditions apply. Australian transport unions needs to stop looking at the past and, like many other indistries have, wake up to the fact that the world has moved on and become international.

If costs are so high the company can't compete it will die a slow death.... and take every pilot and engineers job with it.

It's the board's job to make sure the CIO and his team is working in the best interests of the entire company and its future. (Despite what has been implied elsewhere in this thread, the board don't report to the CIO... the CIO is accountable to the Board). If the Board were concerned with the CIO#s course of action they would have acted. They haven't.

[Raymond Rowe]

And people here would not have the working conditions today if our grandfathers and fathers stood by the unions and got our conditions today that the current generation would not like to work under.It easy to see some people would work for next to nothing.The engineers spend many years studying and going thru many sleepless nights like the pilots do.So why should joyce get paid 5 million and everone else a few grains of rice like peoplke here would like to see.Hate to think what what sort of conditions some work under.

[Matt D]

At the Fair Work Australia tribunal tonight the preferred position of each party was asked. Question: termination or suspension?

Termination: Qantas, Federal, NSW, QLD, VIC governments
Suspension: Pilots, TWU, ACTU, Engineers

(information care of @leigh_howard twittering direct from the hearings)

[Craig Murray]

From the outside looking in, and with no intimate detail of what's happened behind closed doors to get the situation to where it is now, I think both sides have probably handled things poorly and all sides will suffer as a result. They will only have themselves to blame.


Agree entirely, and things haven't been rosey for a very long time at Qantas so those that seek to blame Joyce, and Joyce alone, without reflecting on their own impact on the situation, are simply playing along with the spin.

Virgin Blue / Virgin Australia have been leading the way now for a good couple of years and it shows on the face of the staff you encounter during your "Virgin Experience". Being a life long QF flier/FF member/supporter/fan I have recently (prior to groundings) made two flights with their domestic competitor and have been stunned with the professionalism, attitude and demeanour of all staff I encountered....... but at Qantas, I had to use a machine to check in, check and tag my own bag and saw hardly a smile. But I digress from the issue at hand.

Qantas, from the top down....... in deep trouble.

[Nigel C]

And people here would not have the working conditions today if our grandfathers and fathers stood by the unions and got our conditions today that the current generation would not like to work under.It easy to see some people would work for next to nothing.The engineers spend many years studying and going thru many sleepless nights like the pilots do.So why should joyce get paid 5 million and everone else a few grains of rice like peoplke here would like to see.Hate to think what what sort of conditions some work under.
A few grains of rice? There'd be plenty of shift workers who'd take their 'grains of rice' at the drop of a hat! And for the sleepless nights comment, I'm a shiftworker too; I reap the benefits, but I also suffer the negatives. That's MY choice, just as it is the engineers and pilots choice. Don't like it? Go work in the parts of GA that do Monday to Friday working 9-5. :rolleyes:

I've got no problems with people negotiating a fair work agreement (pay, conditions etc), but personally I think it's a bit rich when people start talking about jobs guarantees like the unions have. The market's just too globally competitive for restrictions like that, and if the current workforce aren't delivering the results like the competition are, then it should only be expected that the employer will look for more streamlined ways to do business and maximise profits for the shareholders (if you've got superannuation, you're probably one of them!).

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Any reason why VB couldn't use an EK B773ER to assist?
It is parked all day at YMML from about 0900 until 1700

Stuart

[Raymond Rowe]

And for the sleepless nights comment, I'm a shiftworker too; I reap the benefits, but I also suffer the negatives.
Nigel where have i mentioned Shift Workers .The amount of study involved to get and aircraft licence is very time consuming and many guys stay up late studying.The pilots spend many dollars to get where they are why should they not ask for job security when you have an airline that no longer wants to call Australia home..I also worked shift work for 11 years.

[Rowan McKeever]

Imagine the reason DJ haven't enlisted the EK 773 or the Chinese aircraft is that they're exhausting the possibilities with their partners first (quicker response because the relationships are already there).

And I'd say EY and other international carriers would use the international terminals and have the domestic 'D' sticker on pax' boarding cards.

[Michael Mak]

What about Virgin Atlantic's A340-600? It sits on the tarmac for hours too before returning to Hong Kong and London. Are things close between two Virgins?

[Todd Hendry]

Well said Raymond.

[Brad E]

Would it be wrong to assume that QF Pilots, Engineers and Ground Staff are the best paid and have the best conditions and perks amongst their local counterparts (VOZ, JST, RXA, etc) and if not the rest of the world? I don't see any issues at those airlines - so this argument about Pilots and Engineers requiring job security only applies at QFA?

The industry is globalised, infact this industry is largely responsible for the globalised world we live in. If QFA can't compete with its domestic competitors or on the global market the business will simply fail causing far more instability than the month of industrial action and a brief shutdown.

[Nigel C]

Ray, the main push for job security that I can see in the media seems to be coming from the very vocal TWU, and not the pilot's association.

But let's face it, the amount of study required to get many qualifications these days is very time consuming, and yes, many people stay up late to do so. Why should the engineers be feeling so precious?

But I also fail to see why, when someone chooses to spend vast amounts of time and/or money attaining their qualification, that should guarantee them a job at the end of it. The world, and the job market, has changed...time to get with the program. Even a government job isn't a 'job for life' like it used to be.

Find me 10 other, no, make that 5 other industries that offer 'job security' with the one employer these days.


It's time for both sides to get reasonable in their negotiations.

[Raymond Rowe]

Nigel i agree with you.But Joyce has gone way to far this time.

[Robert S]

In my opinion, you just can't point out that Joyce has gone way too far without acknowleding that the unions have also done so.

The other thing that gets me which doesn't get much mention is the completely disingenuous strategy of notifying of strike action then "cancelling" it at the last moment after the airline has already cancelled flights and notified customers. Effect of strike action in place, but strikers get to bank their day's pay. To then go around this weekend and say "we only spent x hours on strike" only served to perpetuate this disingenuous behaviour. This is not the behaviour of people negotiating in good faith - the moment they did that they lost any moral high ground they had as far as I'm concerned (now no-one has it).

[Michael Cleary]

Regarding the use of otherwise idle foreign aircraft, just remember that crews need to be found to operate them. For instance, the Etihad crews have to get their required rest breaks, and I am sure they would not use a rested crew to do a couple of domestic runs, only to have to cancel/delay the scheduled flight to Abu Dhabi due to a shortage of crew.

[Arthur T]

Re Michael: Can they ferry an extra set of crews delicated or in rotation to do the domestic runs? I am sure Ethiad accepts the offer to use their planes for domestic runs because what they recieve will definitely be more than the cost they are sending extra staff to, should that's needed.

I believe it could be the same as Singapore Airlines.

It seems to me that Virgin Australia is cashing in heaps even if they are wet-leasing aircrafts to do domestic runs for them to do so. However, I just wondering is it possible for Virgin Australia to use their B77Ws to do domestic runs as well? They are planning to let Air NZ replacing themselves to do NZ runs, and how about to use extra DL metals to the US and more Etihad planes to replace VA ones to ABU?

Finally, Virgin set a target to make their Corporate Market Share from 10% to 20%. I wonder if they will achieve say 30 or even 40% this year due to Qantas Shutdown.

[Zac M]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6215/6294898210_2c758e2074_b.jpg
My camera has this as taxiing out at 1700 departing at 1702, I dare say this flight (QF717 VH-VZL) was the last flight to depart anywhere.

[Matt D]

At the Fair Work Australia tribunal tonight the preferred position of each party was asked. Question: termination or suspension?

Termination: Qantas, Federal, NSW, QLD, VIC governments
Suspension: Pilots, TWU, ACTU, Engineers


The tribunal ruled in favour of Termination - as requested by Qantas and the fed and state governments ..... and against the wishes of the unions.

[damien b]

Joyce did what had to be done, although the board probably hoped that the Government would declare the industrial action illegal rather than get FWA involved. I rely on QANTAS to a degree for my job, i am also in a union. I know the training involved to become a LAME, i am a trainer. The unions (TWU and ALEA mainly)went too far in asking for legally binding job security - no one, excluding royal families (debatable at times) and the pope has job security, why should these unions? If they got that, every union would demand the same. QANTAS has been damaged by both parties actions, many will never fly it again and i guess time will tell how long QANTAS keeps flying.

[Jarden S]

The location of all 108 aircraft grounded by QF fleet by rego is on here:
http://theqantassource.com/
Also statemnet by AJ for his reasons for the grounding

[Zac M]

That is not a reliable source. It is only going by where aircraft were last trcked to, ie: VH-TJZ is listed as been in Canberra arriving on the 28th...WRONG

[NeilP]

Nigel i agree with you.But Joyce has gone way to far this time.
Too far?...

If you were invited to a knife fight, and had the option of taking a gun?...

[Steve S... 2]

Hi...

Two aircraft are missing from the list.

VH-QPH - I suspect is in Singapore.
VH-OGE - It was flying around the day Qantas was grounded.

Anyone know where OGE is please?

Regards,

Steve S

[Benny Zheng]

QF32 will depart Singapore at 1100 today. VH-OQG.

[Arthur T]

Finally glad to see Qantas flights back on running, however I am worried this will establish a very bad precedent to Australian firms.
So next time if Civil Servants in NSW are launching industrial action against the recent salary rise cap, Barry O'Farrell can shut down the Government and force them to Fair Work Australia to stop these actions for another 21 days.
The next next time if a Union is having industrial action at one of our major supermarket chains, they can shut it all down and leave us to have expensive food and short of supplies.
This is totally unacceptable and I think Julia Gillard should consider to make the company shutdown a criminal offense so that no one will shut their company down to put the whole nation into a halt.

[Daniel M]

V Australia are planning on operating a 777 MEL-SYD tomorrow

[Oliver Gigacz]

VH-OQD is being ferried from SYD to MEL as QF6017.

[Benny Zheng]

The following from Singapore systems:

Depart Singapore time

* = still yet to confirm
QF32 will depart 1215 VH-OQG. (Plane in Singapore)
QF6 will depart 1945 VH-OJE *
QF51 will depart 2105 VH-QPJ *
QF78 will depart 1945 VH-QPH * (Plane in Singapore)
QF9 will depart 2315 VH-OQD * (Plane from Melbourne)

[Rowan McKeever]

Ferrying an A380 after a 45hr shutdown??? Brilliant move...

[Grahame Hutchison]

First QF aircraft on Sydney ACARS was ...

VH-OEH QF6001 31/10/2011 13:05 Qantas B747-438(ER)

a positioning sector.

[Arthur T]

Re Daniel: The flight details has been announced on VA FB Page:

DJ 9502 SYD 1030 - 1200 MEL 2 B77W

BTW, will Singapore Airlines and Etihad still opering their birds domestically?

[Adrian B]

A pommy friend mentioned that they thought AJ in his time at Ryanair actually locked workers out for a week. Anyone confirm this?

[Nigel C]

This is totally unacceptable and I think Julia Gillard should consider to make the company shutdown a criminal offense so that no one will shut their company down to put the whole nation into a halt.

So you're telling me that in the event of a dispute like this one, where the unions disrupted 'normal operations' by way of strike, stop-work, and dummy-strike (which all resulted in delays/cancellations), that the company should have no recourse available to it at all???

[Adrian B]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I heard that the government actually instagated the FWA hearing under a certain section of the act, and that QF had that same right and ability to do so as well, but chose to go lockout.

[Ian Nicholls]

That is not a reliable source. It is only going by where aircraft were last trcked to, ie: VH-TJZ is listed as been in Canberra arriving on the 28th...WRONG

VH-TJZ - Sydney - arrived as QF752 from Adelaide 29 October.

[Ian Nicholls]

VH-QPH - I suspect is in Singapore.
VH-OGE - It was flying around the day Qantas was grounded.

Anyone know where OGE is please?

Regards,

Steve S

VH-QPH - Singapore - arrived as QF81 from Adelaide 29 October.
VH-OGE - Brisbane - arrived as QF512 from Sydney 29 October.

[Anthony T]

Why do people keep going on about AJ working at Ryanair?

AJ worked for Aer Lingus.

[Rowan McKeever]

So you're telling me that in the event of a dispute like this one, where the unions disrupted 'normal operations' by way of strike, stop-work, and dummy-strike (which all resulted in delays/cancellations), that the company should have no recourse available to it at all???
Particularly in a safety critical industry like aviation... without wanting to quote AJ, the last thing this country needs is distracted pilots flying around, or distracted engineers working on aircraft.

[Steve Jones]

DJ9502 should be the first ever VA-operated domestic flight and perhaps the first ever B777 Australian domestic flight (where not an international tag-on). Seats on sale for $109 each too!

[Andrew P]

I like the Alan Joyce of LA and twitter fame, getting all the wrong tweet

maybe Virgin should bring him out as publicity stunt

[Oliver Gigacz]

Could not resist, used my Velocity points for a very quick trip to SYD and back.

When I went to check in, it allowed to choose any seat in either Business, Premium or Economy. I chose 2K, so hoping this wont change.

[Andrew Johnson]

Gillard has the power to get them flying straight away but buck passed it to FWA so as to not upset her bosses at the unions.

What a joke.

[Andrew Johnson]

Qantas is a public company, it doesn't answer to politicians it answers to its shareholder.

If, because of dodgy industrial laws in this country, it's ;eft with no other option, it has to pull the pin, ie. shut down the carrier.

[Michael Dawson]

First flights to leave Brisbane today are QF 51 VH-QPJ BNE - SIN and QF 974 VH-VZS BNE-TSV.

Cheers

Michael

[Grahame Hutchison]

Second and third flights out on Sydney ACARS were ..

VH-QPA QF0041 31/10/2011 16:01 Qantas A330-303 Sydney-Jakarta
VH-OJF QF0011 31/10/2011 16:09 Qantas B747-438 Sydney-Los Angeles

Nothing domestic so far.

[Grahame Hutchison]

QF Domestic flights starting to move now on Sydney ACARS ..

VH-OGR QF0530 31/10/2011 16:24 Qantas B767-338(ER) Sydney-Brisbane
VH-ZXB QF0445 31/10/2011 16:27 Qantas B767-336 Sydney-Melbourne

[Brock Little]

OEH positioned from BNE (arrived as QF8 from DFW Sunday morning).

[Steve Jones]

Looks like a Pacific Blue (ZK- registered) aircraft operating a SYD-MEL-SYD return on Wed too.

[Anthony T]

02NOV11

DJ134 1430SYD-1605MEL 738
DJ135 1645MEL-1810SYD 738
Operated by Pacific Blue

[Michael Dawson]

ZK-PBA Operated DJ 154 BNE - SYD last night, didn't know if it was a divert or a special flight, looks like it was to help with uplift of disrupted passengers.

Cheers

Michael

[Lukas M]

DJ 9502 SYD 1030 - 1200 MEL 2 B77W
No return flight :confused:

[Tim Bowrey]

Lukas VH-VPE is opperating the flight(currently on LAX-SYD VA2) and I believe its ferrying back to SYD not long after then does the VA29 to AUH.

Passengers tomorrow will be bussed from T2 to the aircraft.

[Andrew M]

I am very tempted to book a MEL-SYD-MEL for the morning to get on the 777 domestically

Let me have another drink and consider

[Sarah C]

A 777 domestic flight - what is there to think about? It is a no brainer!

[Michael Mak]

If I wasn't working tomorrow, I would definitely go to Melbourne for a day on the 77W :(

[Philip Argy]

I'm OK with the lockout plan in all the circumstances, and understand that the consequence of the lockout was a grounding from the time that operational staff became unavailable. But I don't understand the basis for the grounding from the time of the announcement. It seems to be based on a fear that between the time of the announcement and the time the lockout took effect some members of the unions involved might (deliberately or due to distraction) do something inappropriate that would compromise safety.

If that's right, why has anything changed just because the FW Tribunal has ordered a termination of the rolling stoppages/threats/slow bake? Sorry to mention the elephant in the room but, whilst IR certainty has been achieved, the suggestion that termination means that safety is immediately OK again looks a bit too confected to me and certainly not supportable on the basis of the so-called conservative approach to safety which allegedly made immediate grounding a necessity.

For once I agree with the PM that immediate grounding was an unnecessary step and that the direct effect on 70,000 travellers and indirect effect on more than 100,000 additional people dictated a different course. IMHO the ends don't justify the means.

I hope we can have an objective and measured discussion about this without anyone taking offence.

[Greg McDonald]

Not a bad article in The Australian today:

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-qantas-dispute-is-not-about-alan-joyces-salary/

[Rowan McKeever]

Not bad at all... thanks Greg!

[Ray P.]

Personally, I think that the grounding was a masterstroke for Qantas. Clearly, the key parties (on both sides of the argument) were not negotiating in a conciliatory manner nor did they give the public any confidence that they were going to resolve this issue anytime soon. This was clearly demonstrated by the fact that the TWU warned that unionists were prepared to wage a year-long campaign of strikes against Qantas, whilst Aircraft Engineers Association secretary Steve Purvinas warned passengers not to book with Qantas before Christmas.

By its very actions, Qantas forced this issue to be resolved in the short term rather than a protracted battle that was going to last a long, long time. Personally, I would take three to four days of complete stoppage over a year of wondering when unions were going to call their next snap strike or go-slow action. But then again, this whole issue demonstrates that both Qantas Management and the Unions are equally prepared to screw the Australian travelling public to further their own causes and then have the gaul to blame eachother for the fact.

Nonetheless, I must say, that I have been impressed by the Australian and International Pilots Association. They have been very measured in their approach and their language and actions do not appear to have deliberately exacerbated the situation. It just seems that they got caught in the crossfire between other parties that have been acting like thugs and rat-bags.

[Raymond Rowe]

http://ozhouse.org/2011/10/30/qantas-finally-the-truth-is-coming-out/#.Tq5_wwSO1NQ.facebook



Have aread

[Ray P.]

This was 'news' more than two months ago and merely provides a transcript for Xenophon's speech on Qantas way back on 23 Aug 11. Generally I never consider anything that comes out of a politician's mouth under parliamentary privilege as being, 'the truth'. ;)

[Paul Waters]

Given the good work The Hon. Xenophon has already achieved for Australian aviation (the Senate Inquiry into pilot training and airline safety), I would believe every word that comes out of that gentlemen's mouth.

Why do so many people on this board find it difficult to deal with the possibility that:
a) Qantas is currently under some gross mismanagement (I would argue that's not a possibility, IT IS)?
b) Qantas is subsidising Jetstar and it's in much better shape than that little Irishman would have you believe?

There's one key ingredient to a successful business, HAPPY STAFF!!!!

Paul

[damien b]

Senator Xenophon is not one to state information that doesn't have some truth to it. My sister worked for him before he became a federal senator and he was honest and a thorn in the side of the state government as he had no loyalty to either side of government or lobby groups. QANTAS has from all accounts opened its books up to the unions and nothing untoward has been found, although they still insist on Jetstar being supported by QANTAS airline. The truth is probably somewhere in between and without a full inquiry at massive expense to the taxpayer we may never know the full truth. QANTAS group management has an adjenda and what we are seeing in one of many moves in a long going play which has yet to be fully written.

[Andrew P]

Joyce is an Australian, it is getting close to racism those calling him Irish

[Jason H]

How is calling someone from Ireland Irish possibly racist??

[Michael Morrison]

I guess it is racism when people mention someones nationality when talking about their work... ie " The Irish CEO of QANTAS".... why is the fact he is Irish relevant???

[Andrew P]

Paul called him "the little Irishman", had he been of Chinese heritage, would it be acceptable to call him "the little Chinaman"? I will let members make up their own minds

[Nigel C]

He speaks with an Irish accent, and he's small in stature.

Now, if they were calling him a leprechaun.....

[Bernie P]

Joyce is an Australian, it is getting close to racism those calling him Irish
Is he? I mean, he could be both an Australian AND an Irishman right?

I hold both Australian AND British Citizenship, and if AJ has both as well, then he is an Irishman without being 'racist'...

[Stephen Brown]

The Qantas story just took a turn for the looney (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/11243718/qantas-wires-cut/)

How could the Head of Safety at Qantas Susan Hyphen-Idiot say that the ground crews and engineers would intentionally sabotage a plane and endanger lives? That's just a hyperbolic statement to make. Maybe it's indicative of the spin that Qantas has been putting on the whole mess from the start.

[Rowan McKeever]

Because if the airline hadn't acknowledged it as a possibility it wouldn't have been cleared by CASA, as mentioned only a few paragraphs earlier (CASA insisted on a sabotage-risk management strategy).

[Steve S... 2]

There are some lunatics out there, and the fact that this has happened I will not fly with Qantas. They come in all shapes and sizes and can be employed anywhere!

Anybody who laughs this off is a fool.

Take a look at the FedEx DC-10 incident a few years back.

[Ray P.]

How could the Head of Safety at Qantas Susan Hyphen-Idiot say that the ground crews and engineers would intentionally sabotage a plane and endanger lives? ...

I can just about guarantee you that every airline would have 'sabotage' listed as a risk within their risk registers. Whilst the likelihood that this would occur would generally be assessed as low, the consequence would be catastrophic. As stated in the article the shutdown of services on Saturday afternoon would have served as action to reduce the risk of sabotage during the intervening period until the scheduled lock out on Monday. Upset and disgruntled workers with access to aircraft would significantly increase the likelihood of this risk occuring.

Whilst you think the Head of Safety is an idiot for contemplating the risk of intentional sabotage, they would not be doing their job properly if they didn't. BTW, she didn't say that the ground crews and engineers would intentionally sabotage a plane and endanger lives; she just said that there is a risk that it could happen. Nothing hyperbolic about that approach whatsoever.

[Ray P.]

As you said;
...They come in all shapes and sizes and can be employed anywhere! ...
Changing airlines won't necessarily reduce the chance of this happening.

[Stephen Brown]

I think Ray that in the current climate the statement was made more to damage the image of the workers rather than signal a problem. If you were in a company and trying to reestablish credibility in your organisation this is one of the last things you would say.

Its easy to spot spin once you know what you're looking for.

[Ray P.]

Stephen, whilst I whole-heartedly agree with you that there is a great deal of spin surrounding this debate, I think that it is fairly heaped on both sides of the argument. But in this instance, the question of sabotage was included in a confidential submission provided to Fair Work Australia by Qantas.

[Stephen Brown]

I agree Ray that the spin certainly went both ways, however making this sort of announcement at this time was certainly ill advised.

As you said it was part of a confidential submission it really should have stayed that way.

[Rowan McKeever]

From what I heard of an interview with Geoff Thomas this morning it wasn't Qantas management that 'announced' the AFP was investigating cut wires on a 767. The very fact that the AFP are investigating cut wires on a 767 strongly suggests that listing sabotage as a potential risk is justified. While I do agree there's been plenty of spin and blame-gaming, this 767 is a pretty serious issue.

[Paul Waters]

interview with Geoff Thomas this morning

If there is a so called aviation 'journalist' that is worse than what that man can spit out, then I'll eat my hat.

Geoff Thomas, from what I've read in his articles, is ill informed and lacking in research.

Geoff, I know you're probably reading this, so why don't you do yourself a favour. Be a journalist and do some research, instead of simply copying and pasting the media release given to you. Quit sideing with one party and sprouting rubbish (Qantas pilots apparently earning over $500k a year, need I say more).

Paul

[Philip Argy]

Can someone explain to me what part of the Fair Work Tribunal's order removed the sabotage risk that was implied to be the 'conservative approach' reason for the immediate grounding? Just asking ... :confused:

[Rowan McKeever]

Paul... I'm not going to disagree with you however he did say (in a roundabout kind of fashion) that Qantas management was not his source. Surely he can't get that wrong...???

[Owen H]

Jeremy,

Its not about wanting Mr. Thomas to find fault with one group or the other.

It is about a major problem with some segments of todays media, where they no longer actually use their journalistic trade.

Mr. Thomas has now, on a number of occasions, stood in front of the nations TV screens and told the public 'statistics' which are simply wrong, and do not reflect reality. Factual data is extremely easy to obtain on this topic. In fact, a large number of people have volunteered to provide that information to him.

As an "aviation expert", he should be striving to provide the public with unbiased factual information, and allowing them to form opinions. He can give his personal opinion, but it should be backed up with researched facts. He should not be simply reciting a press release and scuttlebutt as gospel.

[Rowan McKeever]

I agree, Owen. It's also been known for Mr Thomas to provide two different stats for the same thing, in the same interview. This is also the man who said, on national TV, that the cut wires presented no risk to safety because they were IFE-only, when we all know bad wiring on IFE systems has caused onboard fires in the past.

He is actually a smart man, but lately seems a little too 'trigger-happy' when talking to the media.

[Andrew P]

Owen

an example please, where Mr Thomas got it wrong

thanks

[Alexander.L]

Rowan are you refering to the Swissair MD-11 that crashed becuase of the IFE fire?

[Rowan McKeever]

Yeah, think so Alexander... can't seem to remember details but IFE fire rang bells for me. Did an AC DC-9 also have a similar thing or was that something else?

[Raymond Rowe]

Did an AC DC-9 also have a similar thing or was that something else?
The AC DC9 was caused by a toilet fire

[NeilP]

The AC DC9 was caused by a toilet fire
Since then AC no longer serve chilli...:D

[Rowan McKeever]

That's right, thanks Raymond :) And nice one Neil!

[andrew evans]

Thanks for that find Andrew C

[Ryan K]

The offer says a free "point to point" flight. Excuse my ignorance, but is a point to point flight non-stop flights only? Or would it include a flight such as HBA-TSV-HBA with a connection in SYD or BNE?

[Jon Harris]

Hi Ryan there is a misuse of the terminology...a lot of airlines mistakingly refer to "direct" as also meaning non-stop. Example SYD-SIN-LHR QF31 - this is a direct service - which means it has a single flight number and normally does not involve a change of aircraft at the transit points. QF107 SYD-LAX-JFK when sold and ticketed as a "through" service SYD-JFK is also considered a direct service for ticketing purposes eventhough there is an equip change from 744 to 332. Hope that helps...

[Ryan K]

Thanks Jon.

I'd say then that 'point to point' could mean either a non-stop or direct flight. Unfortunately for me, I don't think it would mean a HBA-TSV-HBA flight via SYD and BNE.

[Ryan N]

Compensation for QF frequent flyer members.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-reveals-its-frequent-flyer-thank-you-20111116-1ni4q.html

[Scott L.]

I booked an international flight to LHR with them on the Monday night, after the grounding was lifted.

I am not looking for compensation but it took some faith from me to punch my credit card into the Qantas website when making the booking.

[Adrian B]

Interesting article HERE (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/facts-fly-under-the-radar-20111116-1nj57.html) in the Herald sun from Bruce Hearn Mackinnon, a lecturer at Deakin Uni concerning the FWA Act and QF management.

[Kirk C]

Last night was the deadline set out by FWA, Neither the 3 unions or Qantas could come to an agreement, and its now up to for FWA to seal the deal.

[Bernie P]

QANTAS pilots have come out swinging against CEO Alan Joyce after he remarked that grounding the airline's fleet had been "positive for the brand".
Mr Joyce grounded the entire Qantas fleet in October as part of an industrial dispute with unions.

"I think it has ended up being positive for the brand," he told The Australian today, after the paper named him as one of the most influential business people in the Australia.

But the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) has described the remarks as "bizarre and worrying".

It says the move, which stranded tens of thousands of people around the world, has caused the airline "catastrophic brand damage".

"Any polling and basic commonsense will tell you that ... it is going to hurt Qantas's reputation," AIPA president Captain Barry Jackson said.

"Yet, Mr Joyce thinks, overall, it has improved the brand and that's incredibly worrying."

Capt Jackson said Qantas needed to focus on repairing the brand damage sustained in 2011.

"In order to do so we need a leader who is in touch with passengers and not just business leaders," he added.

"Mr Joyce needs to wake up and realise that the big end of town is cheering him on because they like the idea that someone is crazy enough to deal out huge damage to the company they lead in the name of industrial battle."

Capt Jackson said the fleet's grounding didn't end the industrial dispute.

"It merely forced it into compulsory arbitration, which will, ultimately, result in a less-than-ideal result for all sides and the airline as a whole," he said.

Fair Work Australia delivered the arbitration ruling in the wake of October's mass grounding, and also banned members of the Transport Workers' Union and the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers' Association from taking industrial action.



Source: news.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/pilots-attack-alan-joyce-over-qantas-comments/story-e6frfkur-1226269495760#ixzz1mDJvHsw0)

[Jason PM]

I am only a small business person, however, I have moved my business to VA and aligned airlines as I want assurance on service.

I also have concerns about the ethics related to QF management.

[Bernie P]

They cant take a trick at the moment can they...


THE Transport Workers Union (TWU) is challenging a court order to pay Qantas more than $750,000 in compensation over strikes at four Australian airports.
Qantas ground staff belonging to the TWU held four-hour work stoppages at Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth airports on the morning of March 30, 2009.

The industrial action, which caused widespread delays, was in protest at Qantas hiring casual staff.

But the Federal Court ruled in May 2011 that the stoppages contravened the Workplace Relations Act 1996.

Two months later, Justice Michael Moore ordered the TWU to pay Qantas $707,345 plus interest in compensation, and $20,000 in penalties.

Six TWU officials, including national secretary Tony Sheldon, were personally ordered to pay Qantas an additional $18,000 in penalties.

The TWU appeared in the Federal Court in Sydney today to launch an appeal against the payment of the compensation component.

The union's lawyer, Adam Hatcher, argued the court did not have the power to order payment of the compensation.

"Our submission, on the appeal, is that the provision is not authorised," Mr Hatcher told the court.

"We are not concerned with the quantification of the amount, merely the order."

The TWU is not appealing the penalties component nor the Federal Court's ruling that the work stoppages were illegal.

The case, before Federal Court justices Peter Gray, Robert Buchanan and Neil McKerracher, is continuing.
Source: news.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/trade-workers-union-challenges-strike-compo-to-qantas/story-e6frfm1i-1226269798276#ixzz1mEEYhh3Y)

[Bernie P]

- AKL-LAX and SIN-BOM being discontinued in May 2012
- JFK upguaged to the 747 with the new product
- SYD/BKK to switch to A330 equipment from June 2012
- SYD/NRT to see 744s 6 x weekly due rebound in market
- SYD/AKL to become solely operated by 73H once AKL-LAX finishes

And also:
QANTAS has announced a half year net profit of $42 million - a whopping 83 per cent drop from last year.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/massive-drop-qantas-profit-falls-83pc/story-e6frfkur-1226272496454#ixzz1mUkWZ98J

[Andrew M]

News not as big as was expected really!

Nothing huge, just small changes for now, besides all the 744's that are getting retired over the next year or 2

[Mark Grima]

I don't really know why. However I am upset that QF1, will no longer be routed via BKK. I liked the fact you could get to London on QF by a number of routes.

That said its good to see that the Japanese market can support 6, 744s a week. I must get there one day.

I heard rumors of Frankfurt being dropped, do these announced changes mean that wont happen?

Cheers

M

[Rod Sloan]

I hear Rob Fyfe is leaving AirNZ at years end. I'm sure he could sort Qantas out :)

[Andrew M]

Air NZ is not making money either at the moment!

QF leaving the AKL-LAX route is good news though for them!

[Michael Cleary]

Hard to fathom how the Japan market has picked up, given the general state of the Japan economy and the high AUD. The JPY is high too, but basically the same to AUD as a year ago.

Maybe Australia is getting the overflow that cant get into Tours to the US and EU.

[Jarden S]

Also Mumbai is getting axed so no direct links from Australia to India anymore.
Could jetstar asia start india flights ex sin?

[Alexander.L]

It was never really a direct link since it stopped in singapore. I thought most people who go to india use Thai via Bangkok?

[Jarden S]

I thought it went BNE-SIN-BOM routing.

[Alexander.L]

It is. I just thought most people who go to india would rather go through bangkok via Thai Airways.

[Ryan K]

It was never really a direct link since it stopped in singapore. I thought most people who go to india use Thai via Bangkok?

It was direct, but not non-stop. E.g. you can fly SYD-JFK direct, via LAX.

[D Chan]

It was non-stop as QF123. If I remember correctly the routing changed in May 2009 following the 2008 Mumbai bombing

[Bernie P]

NOT 100% sure if its come out of the restructure announcements last week, and not really wanting to start a single thread for just this, but seems as though QF/JQ are consolidating a little more in Vietnam, with the 'Jetstar Pacific'...

QANTAS Airways' low-cost offshoot Jetstar Pacific will be majority owned by Vietnam Airways under an ownership change confirmed in Hanoi late yesterday.
Under the new arrangement, national flag carrier Vietnam Airways will hold 69.93 per cent of Jetstar Pacific, with Qantas Group owning 30 per cent of the low-cost carrier.

The ownership restructure had been heavily flagged in Vietnamese media reports.

Previously, Vietnam's State Capital Investment Corporation (SDIC) held the majority stake in Jetstar Pacific.

A new chief executive and chairman would also be appointed in coming weeks.

A joint statement from Vietnam Airlines and Jetstar said the two carriers would work together to develop a two-brand strategy focused on serving domestic and international routes.

Jetstar Group chief executive Bruce Buchanan said he welcomed Vietnam Airlines as a new partner in Jetstar Pacific.

"We are confident this partnership between a low-fares carrier and a full-service airline can replicate the success of the two brand strategy used by Qantas and Jetstar in Australia," Mr Buchanan said in the statement on Wednesday.

Jetstar Pacific would also receive a capital injection of $25 million for fleet renewal, with the five Boeing 737s used currently to be replaced with new Airbus A320s from the middle of 2012.

The airline said it hoped to have 15 A320s in its fleet within the next few years.

Qantas said, in a statement, its contribution to the capital injection would be $A7.5 million.

"The shareholders support Jetstar Pacific's fleet to grow to 15 A320s within the next few years," the airline said.

Qantas has faced a number of challenges since it bought into Jetstar Pacific, then known as Pacific Airlines, in 2007.

In 2010, two Qantas executives were detained by Vietnamese authorities for more than six months as part of an investigation into fuel-hedging losses at Jetstar Pacific.

The investigation was terminated and the pair was not charged.

A former Jetstar Pacific chief executive was also arrested for "causing serious losses", while a Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam report found the airline failed to follow maintenance regulations.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/jetstar-pacific-ownership-goes-to-vietnam-airways/story-e6frfkur-1226277968292#ixzz1n41MGhgH

[Rowan McKeever]

It was non-stop as QF123. If I remember correctly the routing changed in May 2009 following the 2008 Mumbai bombing

The timing of the SIN stop introduction sounds about right, I thought there was some kind of an issue relating to crew hours, allowances, breaks or something with the non-stop flight as well though?

[Michael Mak]

I thought they didn't have enough 332s to operate SYD-BOM non-stop or the 333s didn't have the range to do it non-stop at the time?

[Gareth U]

After the cessation of 743 non-stop services, 333s were used on SYD-BOM with a stop in Darwin on the outbound sector only (where customers could leave or join the flight). Short haul cabin crew began operating this flight after a short time due to a crew change being required in Darwin and the difficulty in positioning long haul cabin crew in Darwin efficiently.

In Jan/Feb 2008, the flight became non-stop once more with the arrival of 332s. Due to the outbound sector duty time exceeding 14 hours, short haul cabin crew could no longer operate the flight and it reverted to being operated by long haul cabin crew.

[Matthew Chisholm]

We won't hire any more airport workers: Qantas


30 May 2012 5:07pm

A senior Qantas manager has told a FWA full bench during the arbitration of its dispute with the TWU that culminated in last year's lockout and fleet grounding that the airline will not in future directly hire any more workers in its airports division.

The union's secretary, Tony Sheldon, has seized on the comment to support his claim that Qantas's long-term goal is to shift its entire direct workforce to labour hire firms, either those it owns or separate companies, and contractors.

He also said today that if the tribunal handed down a decision that allowed Qantas to pursue its outsourcing strategy, then the Federal Government needed to amend the Fair Work Act.

Qantas's executive manager of ground operations, Matthew Lee, during cross examination (see from PN5412) earlier this month, agreed that he made up his mind ahead of last year's negotiations for a new ground employees agreement that all future workers engaged in airports would be an employee of its ground-services subsidiary, Qantas Ground Services (QGS) (see Related Article).

When asked by TWU barrister Adam Hatcher SC whether it followed that, at least as far as the airports division was concerned, there would in future not be any new person employed by Qantas, he said: "Yes, that's correct."

He agreed it wasn't a negotiating item, but a decision that Qantas made before bargaining began then announced to the union in the course of their meetings.

"It was something that you decided to do as a matter of business strategy?" Hatcher asked.

"Correct," he responded.

Lee gave evidence that Qantas currently had 1662 direct employees in airports.

The parties are in the 11th day of their 14-day arbitration - before Vice President Graeme Watson, Senior Deputy President Anne Harrison and Commissioner Greg Harrison - of last year's dispute over a new deal for ramp workers, baggage handlers, cleaners and catering workers.

The key argument the TWU has put to the bench is that a workplace determination that didn't include site rates would over time cover only a "dwindling legacy workforce", and Sheldon today said the comments by Matthew Lee supported its case (see Related Article).

However, Qantas has told the full bench that it shouldn't do directly what it couldn't do indirectly, which was to spread Qantas rates to QGS, which was not part of last year's dispute and outside the jurisdiction of the workplace determination.

Harry Dixon SC, representing the airline, told FWA when the case began in March that it was a clear premise of Qantas's agreement with the TWU on QGS that the subsidiary's workers would be paid a lower hourly rate to constrain the airline from outsourcing.

Qantas established QGS - which has an enterprise agreement with the TWU - in 2009 in settlement of a dispute between the parties over outsourcing of the baggage room in Perth.

Hatcher said in his opening submission that it was set up to cover labour hire employees and provide an alternative to third party arrangements and that the airline's plan to use it to undermine direct employment breached undertakings given in writing at the time.

The Fair Work Ombudsman on Monday begun prosecuting two Qantas entities and Jetstar for allegedly paying foreign-based cabin crew working in Australian territory only half of their minimum entitlements (see Related Article).


Source: Workplace Express

[Bernie P]

QANTAS Airways expects a fall of up to 91 per cent in its full year underlying profit due to the troubled European economy and soaring fuel costs.
Qantas today said it expected its underlying profit before tax in the year to June 30 to be in the range of $50 million to $100 million.

That would be down from an underlying profit before tax of $552 million in the previous financial year.

"The forecast result reflects the recent deterioration in global aviation operating conditions driven by the European economic crisis, the group's highest ever jet fuel bill, and substantial capacity increases in the domestic market that have reduced yields," Qantas said in a statement.
YIKES!!!
Source: News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/qantas-profit-to-drop-by-up-to-90-per-cent/story-e6frfkur-1226384284521#ixzz1wsBVGupo)

[Thomas Collins]

It is better than a loss... As many other airlines will post.

EK, SQ, CX, have all posted downgraded performance.

[Mike W]

It is better than a loss... As many other airlines will post.

EK, SQ, CX, have all posted downgraded performance.

But -90% Thomas?

[Ash W]

Still better than a loss, even if it was 99% down. In other words it could be worse. Do also remember that last year a good $90m was courtesy of Rolls Royce.

[Thomas Collins]

Mike - I am not sure what you're confused about.

It is still a profit.

There will be airlines that will post a loss.

Last time I checked - a loss is not good...