Flight times Syd-Mel

[Peter H.]

Looked at webtrack today as son flew to Melbourne

Shows take off of DJ #810 at 7.30 am and landing in Melbourne at 9.30(webtrack time) What does a plane do for 2 hours

It seems that many flights are taking this period of time. How can anybody accept thsi

[Ryan K]

I noticed on Flightradar 24 that there were some MEL bound flights in holding patterns. There was a QF flight from ADL that would have been delayed by quite some time.

[Dave Parer]

Maybe was put in a holding pattern?

I have an iPhone app called Flight Track Pro. It shows DJ810 as departing SYD at 7.20am and states it left gate 5 mins late.

It then shows an arrival into MEL of 9.36am and states it arrived at gate 46 mins late.

[Owen H]

This is now standard sort of stuff around the domestic network Peter! And thats on a good morning!

For example, on a Melbourne to Sydney sector, there is 20 minutes of Air Traffic Holding fuel that is required at all times - this increases to 25+ minutes at some times of the day.

If MEL or SYD goes to single runway operations you're looking at 40 minutes plus.

There is also the issue of the 80 movements per hour cap in Sydney, and the use of Runway 34R.

So, for a SYD - MEL sector with northerly winds in Sydney, you're looking at 15+ minutes of taxi time, then waiting at the holding point for other aircraft/movement cap (add a good 10 minutes), your flight which takes about 1:05 (plus about 8 minutes added to do the world's silliest departure out to the east), then say 10 minutes of traffic delay in Melbourne, 10 minute taxi... and you're already at 1:58 for the sector.

It doesn't take much!

[Tim M]

Plus Some big storms in Melbourne/victoria overnight and earlier this morning and most flights were arriving late!

[Adam P.]

Airlines as a group keep scheduling multiple aeroplanes to arrive at the same time.
Only one aeroplane can use a runway at a time.
Someone has to wait!

[Kelvin R]

Out of interest is there a website which shows which times of day YSSY reaches its cap of 80 movements an hour?

[Nathan M]

I doubt there would be a site showing this as it changes from day to day but in general most mornings during week-days and a few evening periods are very close or at capacity. The movement cap is enforced by this mob, might be worth checking out their site for more info (particulalry the coordinaation guidelines section).

http://www.coordaus.com.au

[Robert S]

Out of interest is there a website which shows which times of day YSSY reaches its cap of 80 movements an hour?

Detailed statistics are found here:

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/reports-and-statistics/sydney-airport-operational-statistics/

For the September report look at page 10 of the PDF (Page 8 if using the page numbers on the page). If you look further you can also see that someone in Kellyville clearly has way too much time on their hands.

[Kelvin R]

Thanks Robert.

From that report the peak average usage is 68 movements an hour between 8am and 9am in the morning. I thought from reading what others have posted here the 80 movements an hour cap is an artificial cap. That is the physical capacity of the airport is higher?

[Phil M]

Airport Coordination Australia allocate slot times, that if everyone met, would ensure the 80 an hour cap would not be breached. But in everyday operations, some run a little late, some a little early and some small delays in one 15 minute block can give the tower a few more aircraft to depart in the next block(s).

As long as the arrival load is full, and the departure queues are full, the cap can be easily broken, but it involves full loads (and a good sequence of aircraft) for a full hour.

We regularly have "cap threat periods" where the movements are counted and may have to slightly delay a departure or two until the next 15 minute block.

[Jarden S]

Thats another reason why the cap should be lifted if the next 15 mins block of flights have to be delayed because too many in the previous block which causes burning more fuel while on a hold point will just increase greenhouse gas emmisions, when we are trying to reduce our nations carbon footprint. not too mention will delay the public from getting from A to B which is really unneccesary. A plane should only be delayed for a mecanical fault not for a movement cap. Does arrival planes have to keep circling in the air until the cap is clear for landing also?

[Owen H]

And therein lies the whole problem - the movement cap should be a planning restriction only. As long as aircraft are scheduled to arrive or depart within the window then that should be sufficient. If you occasionally go one or two over the limit due to a few late departures, then so be it.

This new 15 minute window is also plainly absurd. I have sat at the holding point at the end of the busy period for two windows with no aircraft at the holding point to depart after us - so while the 80/hr cap was never in danger of being breached, the 15 minute limitation meant an increased delay of about 20 minutes.

How many times in the last few years has the 80 cap been breached? Not very many I would think is the answer! And that is despite not having a rediculous 15 minute window limitation. Aircraft operations do tend to "clump", and this system just increases the delay for everyone.

While we are at it and saving the world, we also need to change the situation regarding the 5am arrivals. The planners approve 5am arrivals as long as it is on 34L only - so aircraft waste rediculous amounts of fuel carrying reserve fuel to hold til 6am in case they can't land, and end up going around in circles for an hour, resulting in massive delays for the whole airport when it opens up at 6.

Its time we got smart and just said "you must land on 34L unless it becomes operationally unsuitable due to tailwinds, when you may land on the required runway". Less fuel wastage, less pollution, and less congestion, and it provides what aircraft and passengers need - some level of confidence of an on time arrival.