New battlefield aircraft for the raaf

[Bob C]

The Minister for Defence, Stephen Smith, and Minister for Defence Materiel, Jason Clare, have announced that the Government has agreed to purchase 10C27J Spartan aircraft at a cost of $1.4 billion.

The C27J will replace the Caribous which were retired in 2009 after more than 40 years service. The C27J complements the capabilities of the C130s and C17s and uses common infrastructure and aircraft systems such as engines, avionics and the cargo handling systems.

The C27s will be based at RAAF Richmond with the first aircraft expected to be delivered in 2015 and the Initial Operating Capability is scheduled for the end of 2016.

But what the Government giveth it also taketh away as the retirement of the C130H was announced in the Budget with some reports suggesting that all C130H flying will cease on 30 June.

So that will leave another capability gap for nearly 4 years as the RAAF will be down at least 7 heavy lifting aircraft (C130H) until the C27s arrive. I know that the RAAF will acquire a sixth C17 next year, but even if that can do the job of 2 C130Hs, our heavy lifting capability will still be significantly reduced.

And although the RAAF's C130Js are expected to take over, three are usually based at a sandy place overseas so I think our resources will be thinly stretched as there will only be a maximum of 9, and probably less due to maintenance requirements, in Australia to do plenty of work.

So perhaps an order for a few more C130Js may also be in the offing ?

[Nathan Long]

The interesting question is where are the C-27Js coming from?

[Damian N]

So perhaps an order for a few more C130Js may also be in the offing ?


I thought that not long ago there had been a plan to acquire a couple of extra -Js but that got dumped by the Govt and RAAF as it was felt that these 2 aircraft would be "orphans" with their maintenence cycle out of sync with the rest of the fleet - they would be 10+ years newer than the rest.

[damien b]

It will be interesting to see whether the C-27J are new or ex-USAF birds. The capability gap is a issue, but the H models are almost dead structurally and need major work to keep them going. It wouldn't surprise me if more C-130J's ( a squadron at least) were brought, but money may be the problem. The RAAF would probably rather spend it on new fighters, rather than transports.

[Jaryd stock]

Could an extra order of CH-47's be on the cards although highly unlikely...

[Nathan Long]

It will be interesting to see whether the C-27J are new or ex-USAF birds.

This is the big question. Apparently Alenia will not support the ex-USAF C-27Js if they're bought by anyone else.

[Bob C]

I believe that they will be new aircraft to be built in Florida.

Earlier this year the US announced that it would retire its fleet of 21 C27Js and scrap plans to build another 17. So many people thought that Australia could pick up some or all of the 21 surplus C27Js and spares and associated equipment at "mates rates".

But Alenia, the Italian builder of the C27, kicked up an almighty stink and in an unprecedented move, warned the U.S. government and intending purchasers that it will refuse to support the aircraft it sold to the United States if the U.S. resells them to other nations.

Alenia explained that the company would continue to support efforts to sell new C27Js through the U.S. Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program, but would exercise its rights not to support the aircraft originally sold to the U.S. if those planes were resold on the international market.

Alenia is still trying to sell new C27s and several countries are interested. But if the US "dumped" 21 aircraft on the market which is seen as a big deal, it would undermine Alenia and possibly affect its future and the livelihood of thousands of workers.

Alenia’s stance is understandable as a sister company, AgustaWestland, beat long time and bitter rival, Sikorsky to win the U.S. presidential helicopter contract. But a series of design changes and cost blow outs saw that $6 billion contract cancelled in the early days of the Obama Presidency so only a few of the 28 helicopters were delivered. Shades of the Airbus/Boeing USAF tanker dispute ???

The 21 surplus C27s may now be heading to the U S Coast Guard, another agency or could just be parked in the desert.

Had these events not occurred then Australia may well have been operating some C27Js by the end of 2012 instead of having to wait nearly 4 years.

I also think that 10 is too few ; 12-16 would be ideal to allow for maintenance and possible attrition. Better to buy them in today's $$$$ and have more in the fleet now and rotate them as required rather than "topping up" in a few years at increased prices like the latest C17 - I believe at least $20 million more than its sisters.

They would be far more useful and relevant, as would a few more C130Js, than the further delayed F35.

And a final word - much has been said about the Super King Airs being an interim Caribou replacement. But has anyone seen a platoon of soldiers scramble out of the back of a King Air or tonnes of supplies off loaded to flood or drought stricken areas ?

I think the King Air is a good communications and training aircraft but certainly not an "interim Caribou replacement".

[Rob R]

And if the Government really wanted to save money, they would base a few King Air's in Canberra and use them for flights to Sydney rather than the Challengers.

[Bob C]

Agree Rob ; they get plenty of flying up and down the East Coast and I think are pseudo VIP aircraft anyway.

[Ray P.]

...And a final word - much has been said about the Super King Airs being an interim Caribou replacement. But has anyone seen a platoon of soldiers scramble out of the back of a King Air or tonnes of supplies off loaded to flood or drought stricken areas ?

I think the King Air is a good communications and training aircraft but certainly not an "interim Caribou replacement".

Whilst being an Interim Light Transport, the purpose of the King Air 400/600 series aircraft is to provide an operational capability whilst at the same time training aircrew and maintainers to operate an aircraft with modern avionics and turboprop engines the likes of which are found on the Alenia C-27J (or whichever aircraft was going to win the Project AIR 8000 contest). So rather than an interim aircraft it is more of a transitional aircraft.

Also, whilst they may not carry tonnes of cargo or platoons of soldiers, the 38SQN King Airs were working around the clock during the floods early last year and have acquitted themselves so well, that we are very likely to see them continue to operate well after the C-27Js achieve operational capability. They actually perform a bucket-load of roles and are really the unsung heroes of the ADF.

[Bob C]

Hi Ray

I am aware that the Super King Airs are being used to train aircrew and maintainers in modern systems and avionics and I agree that the term transitional is more appropriate than interim which is used officially.

But it's a pity that the Government didn't make that distinction as these things are all about perception.

I'm also aware that they are very heavily utilized all over Australia given the numerous hits on ModeS reports every day. A couple even flew to New Zealand via Tasmania recently.

Oh, and I've just read that No 35 Squadron will operate the C27Js.

Cheers

Bob

[AdamC]

Well i guess it starts.

Will we go down the same path as big brother.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/australia-to-buy-aircraft-the-us-rejected/story-e6frfku0-1226352411129

[Bob C]

Probably better than going with the alternative as we're not having a good run at present with some other acquisitions.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

A friend just told me that we are buying 2 more C-17's which are cancelled orders? Strange as they just cut almost $5 billion from the defence budget over the next few years with deferred orders/cancelled projects etc.

[AdamC]

C17 number 6 was always on the cards, as for number 7 who knows.

Rumour has it they defence has purchased more blackhawks also, guess we'll see where that goes.

[Peter Agatsiotis]

I think these are 7 & 8? As to delivery times etc, who knows.

[damien b]

Makes sense if more C-17's are on the way beyond the recent purchase. I do wonder how the RAAF will keep the techo's and aircrew current in the time between the H model being retired and the C-27J arriving. I dare say not all could be employed effectivley within 37 sqn once the C-130H leaves.

[Jaryd stock]

Rumour has it they defence has purchased more blackhawks also, guess we'll see where that goes.

Why would they buy more Blackhawks when they have 46 new NH-90's for the army/ navy.... Unless your thinking of the new Romeo's that have been orderd for the navy.

[Jethro H]

I see that the 'artists' have been at work.
http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/raaf_cj27wm2.png

It took long enough to lock in this deal, they started looking at Caribou replacements more than 10 years ago.

[A McLaughlin]

Just to clear some misconceptions up...

The RAAF's C-27Js are to be new build. Alenia builds them in Italy, and then the mission systems are fitted by L3 in Waco, Texas.

The US didn't "reject" the C-27J...it was a victim of the US's need to slash a $400 ts defence budget over the next decade. The unit operating them in Afghanistan and US Army units it is supporting love it, it's just the USAF has decided to put all its eggs in the C-130 basket.

The C-27Js will be operated by 35SQN under 84WG out of Richmond...makes sense to centralise the maintenance for the C-27J and C-130J which share similar engines and avionics.

The RAAF doesn't want any more C-130Js. The two that they were going to get in the previous AIR 8000 Phase 1 were cancelled in early 2011 and the fifth C-17 was ordered instead. There has been a significant upgauging of the RAAF's airlift in recent years - the C-130Js will cover the larger tac airlift, and the C-27J will slot in underneath where the Caribous and C-130Hs used to be.

There have been rumours of more Black Hawks because of the MRH 90 issues, although I have recently heard from an Army pilot mate that the MRH issues are slowly being sorted and there is some optimism for the future....hopefully they can get them going before the current Black Hawks expire...

Seventh and eighth C-17? Hmmm...good luck getting funding for those! There are no cancelled international orders that I know of.

[Bob C]

Hi Andrew

Thanks for the clarification.

The confusion seems to stem from a reporter's error over whether the C27Js will actually be "built" in the US or not. I based my initial comment on the following article which appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald On Line and the alleged remark by MinDef to the SMH reporter that they would be "built" in the US

"............New airlifters confirmed for RAAF David Ellery
May 10, 2012

Australia is to buy 10 C-27 Spartan battlefield airlifters, Defence Minister Stephen Smith said today.

The planes, to be built in the US, will begin arriving in 2015.They are the long-awaited replacements for the Vietnam War-era Caribous that were withdrawn from service in 2009............."

Since my initial post, I've been searching around for several days seeking more information about an Alenia factory in the U S and the closest I could find was the Alenia Aermacchi North America site which mentions its U S partner L-3 Communications having several facilities in Florida. Another site mentioned that the first U S C27J was built at Alenia’s factory in Turin, Italy and that the rest would be “assembled” at Cecil Field, County Duval, Florida.

So I agree with you that will be the case with Australia's order and that they won't actually be "built" in the U S A.

And I also agree that bugetary, not performance problems, were the reason for the premature retirement from USAF service.

But do you think that 10 is enough or should we have sought 12-16 from the outset ?

Cheers

Bob

[A McLaughlin]

When Boeing was a partner on the original Joint Cargo Aircraft (JCA) program it was going to set up a manufacturing line at Cecil Field. But when numbers dwindled from 138 to 78 then to 38, it was decided to build the aircraft at Alenia in Italy and then fly 'green' airframes to the US for their mission systems fitout.

Boeing dropped out of the program a few years ago and L3 came in, and the fitout line was established at L3's facility at Waco.

Ten C-27Js is a good start - don't forget we only had 10 Caribous in the end and the utility of these in a modern war zone was highly questionnable anyway. Ten C-27Js can certainly cover a lot more ground a lot faster and with much bigger loads than 10 Caribous. With the C-130Js now mainly tasked in the tac role, the C-130Hs can also be retired. I doubt we'll see more C-27Js.