Brisbane Traffic Holding - A Joke

[Radi K]

Air schedules in chaos because Brisbane Airport's two runways can't operate at same time at night

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/flying-circus-night-after-night/story-e6freoof-1226417242574

It's up to 60 minutes of airborne holding on clear weather nights in Brisbane.

Keep in mind, airports like Gatwick (with a similar mix of traffic) can operate with a movement cap of 55 per hour. Brisbane comes nowhere close to this.

We are talking about an airport with an ILS on each end and high speed taxiway exits.

Something has to be done.

[Steve Jones]

I totally agree with you Radi. As a very regular flyer to/from BNE for work, the holding is verging on the ridiculous, especially now that the days are shorter (to open a can of worms, if we got daylight savings in QLD, it would help a lot in summer...!)

The challenge I see is that there won't be a parallel runway for close to 10 years and with all the resource traffic expected over the next 2-3 years, the airport simply won't cope (not all of the mining ports can take larger aircraft, so you are talking high frequency Q400/ATR72 services to meet demand).

[lloyd fox]

I disagree with some things here Radi.

On Tuesday BNE handled a record 672 movements with 57 in the hour 9-10am albeit RWY 14 and 01 were both in use.

It is when RWY 19 is in use that traffic cannot land RWY 14 due to a incident and nobody is willing to take the risk.This is when most delays occur.

Today could possibly beat Tuesday's record .I have just come from there and 14 at the hold for RWY 19 and a constant non stop arrivals which is different to LGW because we have Caravans,Barons etc feeding into the sequence and i believe the ATC do a wonderful job.

Airlines will possibly add a further 30 movements a day by years end.

Now LGW handles around 250,000 movements annually which equates to 684 daily with busy days handling 750.

For the financial year 2010-2011 BNE handled 206,000 movements up from 194,000 the previous year.This financial year possibly 220,000 .

To put this into context now BNE handles 70-75% of Sydney movements with 1 runway quite a amount of the time.

[lloyd fox]

Actually i just read the article and i am not sure where they got the daily movements from as those daily figures are 15 years ago.

This week Monday 647
Tuesday 672 and Wed 645.

[Joe Frampton]

I live under the YBBN 01 approach at Norman Park on the southside. There are certainly periods on some days where the aircraft are on a constant line up from late afternoon well into the evening. But I've also been to Gatwick, where they seem to handle far more traffic on one runway without too many problems. I'm no expert on this, but our aircraft separation & stacking seem (visually) very conservative compared to say Gatwick or LAX, where you can see the approach lights stacked up on levels and they seem to get plenty of planes on the ground... Are we really a 2 runway city?

[lloyd fox]

Yes Joe we are.

As i said before when RWY 01 is the active then 14 or 32 are also in use.You get maybe 60% traffic over your area.

This am between 9am-10am 56 movements.

[Radi K]

I’m sorry Lloyd but I can promise you the holding requirements imposed at Brisbane are very dissimilar to most major international airports. 60 minutes of airborne holding for a fine weather evening shows poor planning from BAC. A slot system needs to be implemented without delay to ensure passengers and airlines can plan accordingly. Baron’s/Caravans etc might be in the mix but the airport is over promising and under delivering.

This morning with the 56 movements only 20 minutes of airborne holding was required at most. So if you can explain why night after night we are seeing 45-60 minutes of aircraft flying around in circles, I would love to hear it. I trust your experience with airport and the movement numbers you have mentioned but we are nowhere near the efficiency of other well-known one-runway international airports.

For the record, last night it was 60 minutes of holding between 1930 and 2200 local.

Tonight it’s 45 from 1730-2200.

[Chris W]

While Brisbane won't be getting a slot system, Collaborative Decision Making via the Metron Traffic System should be implemented sometime in 3rd Qtr 2012 to bring it into line with Sydney and Perth. There were some figures being thrown around that during the first few weeks of its implementation in Sydney, airborne holding was halved (bear in mind that is talk and not confirmed).

However, anyone operating into Sydney since it went live in March would know the system works quite well. It isn't perfect but it is a lot better than the old CTMS system when everyone abides by the delay program.

[Mick F]

Being directly affected by the delays into Brisbane (those who know my background know that I know the holding pattern at Maleny quite well), and having a fairly good knowledge as to the reasons for delays etc., I can pretty well assure you that given the resources ATC has, they do a pretty bloody good job at maximising the runway useage at peak times.

What a lot don't seem to think about, when they see big delays between arrivals during these peak periods, is that you have to squeeze the departures in there as well!

14/32 is not 'closed' at night, and where opportunities exist for ATC to use 14, they will use it (I know, because we are the one's often put onto it). However, the use of 19 pretty much precludes it's use at all during peak times, and during peak times it's also hard to utilise it when 01 is in use as well. Not impossible, but you need just the right sized gap.

14/32 will be closed later this year for about a 6-9 month period, to enable the commencement of works for the new runway, so it's only going to get worse. However, there's not a lot that can be done!

We are talking about an airport with an ILS on each end and high speed taxiway exits.

ILS approaches only make it worse.

As Chris has said, there is something being done behind the scenes, but the Courier Mail wouldn't put anything like that into their story, otherwise it wouldn't sound as bad as they've made out.

Mick

[lloyd fox]

There is a very good discussion about this on Pprune at the moment and whether i am right or wrong all i know is the ATC hands are controlled by the incident mentioned.

BNE has had a massive increase in movements the past 2 months and anyone who follows my Jetspotter posts can read that info at anytime.

BNE movements will get a further 30-40 a day weekdays before the year ends and as Mick says things will get worse.

We are now busier than Melbourne on aircraft movements and yesterday was also a new record.

Yes Mick is absolutely correct they have to sequence the arrivals to let the departures go.
Yesterday 9am-10 am peak 56 movements.14 at the hold and a constant 2-3 on finals for 2 hours.Only 1 landed 14, a Dornier 228, everything else landed 19 and all takeoffs were 19.
250 movements between 6am and noon.

[Radi K]

Thanks Chris, Metron has worked better and I know it's on the way but it will only work with maximum benefit if there is financial penalty for departing before/after your allocated slot time. Non-compliance is recorded but nothing is done about it. I agree Sydney has improved.

Lloyd, I understand the significant increase in movements but if the runway can't handle the increase without incurring major delays, I struggle to understand why BAC allows more and more aircraft to arrive and depart? Is it profit driven? Again I ask, despite the peak of 56 movements, only 20 minutes of holding was required yesterday morning. I'm still searching if anyone can tell me why 60 minutes is needed on a weeknight, at a time where this peak isn't reached?

God help us when summer comes and the storms slow everything down to a snails pace. Then we will be holding for 2 hours +!

[lloyd fox]

Radi i agree with you there is some hidden agenda here.There is a little bit more in today's Courier Mail as well which may explain more.

SEE BELOW.


THE new runway that could solve Brisbane's crowded skies has been delayed until 2020 as a row brews over who will pay for the $1.3 billion congestion buster.

Airlines are unhappy that they are expected to cover the entire cost but agreement on the financial arrangements is required by September 1 in order to commence preliminary work if it is to be built by 2020.

Although airlines agree the runway is needed - with the airport already experiencing congestion issues for evening flights - they are balking at the prospect of paying upfront for a runway eight years in advance.

The long construction period is due to the fact the runway is being built on swamp land that requires millions of tonnes of Moreton Bay sand as fill, which takes three years to settle.

Board of Airline Representatives of Australia executive director Warren Bennett said international airlines were concerned they were expected to spend a lot of money on a project that would provide no benefit for many years.

"Brisbane Airport Corporation is expecting the airlines to pay for the world's biggest sand pit," Mr Bennett said.

"They get no benefit and are facing a very high charge."

He said airlines worldwide had always objected to the pre-funding of capital projects.

"They're happy to pay for projects that are delivered in an agreed timeframe, but ... some of the airlines paying now might not be there in eight years time."

Mr Bennett said negotiations with BAC had been "very difficult". "There hasn't been much progress made in the last couple of months," he said.

"If we don't reach agreement (by September 1) it's difficult to say what the outcome will be. There are no guarantees."

Qantas has also confirmed its opposition to the funding arrangements, which would set a precedent for the industry.

The date for the new runway was put back to 2020 four years ago, because of "softening demand" for air travel as a result of the global financial crisis.

A BAC spokeswoman said they formed the view in 2010 that demand was recovering and construction would need to start this year.

"Discussions with airline partners, and indeed growing congestion, have confirmed that the runway is needed, so BAC is proceeding with the project," she said.

Brisbane Airport has one of the poorest on-time performance records for arriving flights, with nearly one in five planes (937) landing more than 15 minutes late in May.

The problem is only one airport runway is allowed to operate at night for safety reasons, which means planes are regularly forced into holding patterns for as long as 40 minutes.

The BAC and other stakeholders are exploring ways of maximising the efficiency of the existing infrastructure with the delays set to worsen as airport traffic increases.

[Paul f.]

BNE has had a massive increase in movements the past 2 months and anyone who follows my Jetspotter posts can read that info at anytime.

BNE movements will get a further 30-40 a day weekdays before the year ends and as Mick says things will get worse.

We are now busier than Melbourne on aircraft movements and yesterday was also a new record.

Lloyd it would be interesting to see how many of these movements are scheduled flights when all the GA, FIFO charters, air ambulance flights are taken out.

[lloyd fox]

Well it's not going to happen Paul because the same as Sydney,ADL,PER we get it all and will for many years to come.It must be disappointing for you to have to go to 2 airports to see what the rest of us see at one.

[Jarden S]

Seems the airport doesn't care about the holding over the city it not costing them nothing only the airlines suffer more fuel burned and with more delays to their flight schedules later on. They also want the airlines to pay for the new runway themselves so it can keep its profits for more important matters eg management bonuses.
Delays will be far worse by 2020 3-4+ hours circling the city by then. It be soon quicker to divert to OOL and take the train back to BNE city.

[Paul f.]

Well it's not going to happen Paul because the same as Sydney,ADL,PER we get it all and will for many years to come.It must be disappointing for you to have to go to 2 airports to see what the rest of us see at one.No its not disappointing Lloyd,its good to be able to travel to Essendon which you know is only a couple of km,s down the road from Tulla and have a break from all the big stuff such as the A380,s(btw you dont see them in BNE do you,whoops you do over flying at 40000 ft;))and the DJ A330,s had one BNE yet? :p

[Joe Frampton]

Just watching an inbound SQ and MH circling and circling over the Lockyer Valley and feeling sorry for everyone onboard... 7.25 Monday night in BNE!

[Alan Dent]

Just heard on ABC radio news that one of the reasons the PM gave Brisbane the G20 conference in 2014 was that Sydney airport couldn't cope with the extra traffic.

Any comments?

But Ms Gillard says the decision to hold it in Brisbane is based on capability, and the Queensland capital is better equipped to handle the summit than Sydney.

"I can understand that Sydney's disappointed and that New South Wales is disappointed, but there were a couple of big reasons why Brisbane was selected," she said.

"First, the Convention Centre here is ready to go... In Sydney, the major convention centre will be undergoing repairs and renovations at that time. And then secondly, we needed to be reassured about airport capacity.

"[There will be] lots of planes, lots of pressure on the airport, all in quite a confined period of time. And Sydney Airport does have restrictions and a lot of pressure on it already, whereas Brisbane's airport can cater for all of that."

[Grahame Hutchison]

Julia could say anything, the chances of her being Prime Minister in 2014 are quite remote.

[Nigel C]

Julia wouldn't be talking more porkies, would she?

[Morris Biondi]

If Sydney Airport could handle APEC, the Olympics and other major events i'm sure we could cater for the G20 as well.

Sydney could easily handle more movements immediately if the ridiculous movements cap would be lifted to 120 as it should be, instead of 80 that is now.

POLITICS.

[lloyd fox]

I believe it was a case of having more parking space for the aircraft than other cities, nothing more and nothing less.That is how it came across up here along with the largest and most expensive new infrastructure roadway system in Australia called airport link due to open in a few weeks.

Yes i am sure it was a vote catching exercise but as us Queenslanders would say

And the winner is BRISBANE.:D

PS I believe a lot of spotters in Sydney already penciling it in.

[Morris Biondi]

I will be up there that's for sure.

[Morris Biondi]

We could park a lot of aircraft at Richmond, or better still make them land there and then let the polis experience the Sydney traffic, to get to the CBD, I'm sure they would love that, ha,ha. That's what a lot of Sydney commuters have to do every day.

[Michael Mak]

I just heard on Brisbane Centre that holding time at YBBN is in excess of 60 minutes tonight. Is it weather related?

[Brock Little]

Yes Michael pretty bad weather in SE QLD, low cloud and rain. Just adding even more to the usual traffic-related delays.

[Michael Mak]

Thanks Brock :)

[Joe Frampton]

Yes Michael pretty bad weather in SE QLD, low cloud and rain. Just adding even more to the usual traffic-related delays.

Just watched a late Jetstar MEL-OOL divert to BNE on plane radar, BOM radar didn't look too bad over Coolangatta but must have been poor visibility

[lloyd fox]

Brisbane airport will become a slot controlled airport next month as RWY 14/32 closes for 20 weeks.

Last Friday a new record(unofficial) of 697 movements were recorded by myself-nearly 700.

ARTICLE BELOW.


From mid next month RWY 14/32 is expected to close for 20 weeks as it needs to be made into a taxyway once the new RWY is open.This involves resealing and new drainage etc.

The airport is also facing a possible curfew, with a government review of night time operations also happening before the end of the year.

Airport CEO Julieanne Alroe has conceded at the Aviation Summit in Sydney this week that peak hour demand is now just too great for single runway operations.

“As a result we are currently designing a runway management demand system – slots in the common parlance – that we expect will result in significant operational reliability outcomes for the airport and reduce some operating costs for the airlines,” she said.

Currently there are around 650 movements each weekday at Brisbane Airport and over 200,000 movements per annum.

By 2020 Brisbane is expected to have 270,000 aircraft movements.

Capacity is also being addressed of course by the construction of a parallel runway, but that will not be operational until 2020.

Alroe was also keen to talk about the upcoming review of the airport’s 24-hour operational status, a legacy of the ’09 White paper on Aviation.

“The review will be run by the Commonwealth and we await details of its structure with great interest, as we believe it will help us make the case much more plainly that a curfew on Brisbane Airport is not the most effective noise mitigation tool,” Alroe said Tuesday.

“It is a common misconception that a curfew will be a quick fix to solve aircraft noise problems, but unfortunately aircraft noise complaints are most often made about the frequency of morning flights and evening flights around dinner time; and night time curfew would not fix these problems."

“If anything, flights that would otherwise occur later in the evening would be pushed into these peak periods, increasing the frequency of flights at these times and creating more of an issue, not addressing it.''

[Mick F]

The airport is also facing a possible curfew

Ohhh here we go, the noise brigade is out somewhere.

Considering that Brisbane Airport does its best to ensure flights arrive and depart over Moreton Bay between 2300 and 0600 anyway, I fail to see what a curfew is going to achieve.

Pretty soon Australia is just going to be closed at night, :mad:

Mick