Qantas - Emirates Announcement Next Week

[Grahame Hutchison]

According to The Australian - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-emirates-alliance-tipped-for-next-week), the Qantas - Emirates announcement will be made next week.


Qantas and Emirates are said to be on the cusp of signing a codeshare deal which would see Qantas routing flights to Dubai so that passengers could transfer onto Emirates flights to Europe.

The long-rumoured partnership would dramatically re-draw the Red Roo’s network map with the middle-eastern city of Dubai becoming a new hub for Qantas’s European flights, and could also see Qantas end flights to Frankfurt – currently its only European destination apart from London.

[Kieran Wells]

And a word from the SMH:
http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-en-route-to-alliance-with-emirates-20120831-2558r.html#ixzz256Sl1t4E

[Bernie P]

QANTAS flights to Europe will now stop over in Dubai under a 10-year partnership signed between the Australian airline and Emirates.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce on Thursday said the partnership was the most significant the airline had ever signed.

The arrangement, which requires approval from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC), is expected to start in April 2013.

"This is the most significant partnership the Qantas Group has ever formed with another airline, moving past the traditional alliance model to a new level," Mr Joyce said in a statement.

"It will deliver benefits to all parts of the group.

"As the world's largest international airline, with a network that perfectly complements our own, Emirates will help us give our customers across Australia a dramatically expanded range of travel options.

"Together with Emirates, Qantas will provide a unique one-stop hub service, as well as deeply integrated frequent flyer and customer benefits."

Under the deal, Qantas will fly daily A380 services from both Sydney and Melbourne to London via Dubai.

Between the two airlines there will be 98 weekly services between Australia and Dubai.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/qantas-to-announce-emirates-alliance/story-e6frfkur-1226466134032#ixzz25e2LRUBC

[Montague S]

does that mean QF passengers ex ports like PER, ADL, BNE, etc are now solely confined to flying Emirates in order to get to Europe?

[Bernie P]

A supposed increased capacity on QF to SIN, so perhaps still able to get to EU ports (via SIN) on QF/BA, QF/CX metals and still remaining in a Oneworld alliance...

Unless I am reading it wrong?

[Malcolm Parker]

does that mean QF passengers ex ports like PER, ADL, BNE, etc are now solely confined to flying Emirates in order to get to Europe?

Yep thats correct.

Even though QF could technically fly from ADL,PER to DXB with their A332 and BNE with their 744ER. But they wont.

Just another nail in the coffin for QF customers from these cities. Just further proof that QF is so SYD/MEL centric and doesnt care about these passengers from PER,ADL and BNE.

[Montague S]

I guess PER passengers can fly QF PER-SIN and connect with the EK flight that flies MEL-SIN-DXB-Europe..

so it seems they have some decent options too if it's allowed?!

http://www.qantasandemirates.com/pages.html#asia

interesting documents about the arrangement.

[Justin L]

does that mean QF passengers ex ports like PER, ADL, BNE, etc are now solely confined to flying Emirates in order to get to Europe?

It seems that way...

http://www.qantasandemirates.com/pages.html#asia
Asia

Our Asian services will no longer be a subsidiary of the 'Kangaroo Route', they will be dedicated to connecting Australians with our region, and Asian visitors to Australia. Qantas flights to Hong Kong and Singapore will be re-timed to better match connecting flights to other destinations within Asia. Qantas will also continue to offer a daily Boeing 747 flight to Tokyo.

...and

http://www.qantasandemirates.com/downloads/QantasandEmirates_FREQUENTLY%20ASKED%20QUESTIONS.p df
FLIGHT NETWORK
5. Will Qantas still fly to Asia?

Yes. Previously our services to Singapore and Hong Kong were timed to optimise
travel through to Europe. We will retime our existing services to Singapore and Hong
Kong offering an improved schedule dedicated to better meet the needs of the Asia
market.

6. Will Qantas still fly to London?
Yes. Qantas will fly daily from both Sydney and Melbourne to London via the global
gateway of Dubai. The new partnership will also allow us to codeshare flights from
Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth directly to Dubai.

15. What if I want to transit through Asia?
Qantas and its codeshare partners will continue to offer a range of transit options
throughout Asia.

[Grahame Hutchison]

Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei4_0EK4xrg&list=UUUS_IE2XRoSvAiaKzOql21g&index=0&feature=plcp)promo already.

[Sarah C]

Good news for both airlines - and ending the agreement with BA is another positive.

[Mick F]

Does that mean you can earn QF Freq Flyer points by flying Emirates?

[Bernie P]

Sure does, and the opposite way with Skywards! AS well as Status credit as well...

[Steve S... 2]

Good news.

But Alan Joyce puts himself on a pedrstal now - clever boy!? :rolleyes:

[George G]

I just hope this doesn't bring Emirates down.

...and i sincerely hope that next time i book a European trip with EK i dont get shoved on to a QF flight.

:)

[James R]

I guess PER passengers can fly QF PER-SIN and connect with the EK flight that flies MEL-SIN-DXB-Europe..


Without having specific knowledge of where your loyalties / frequent flyer status' etc lie .. why on earth would you want to travel QF PER-SIN to then connect with EK SIN-DXB when you presumably have the option to fly EK PER-DXB direct?

A plane geek would surely love the extra sectors, but given your history of lamenting the lack of options QF provide out of PER, I would have thought you would stick to the most direct method and avoid the lengthy QF alternative altogether.

[Radi K]

IMHO Emirates will gut Qantas and it will be a shadow of its former self soon enough. EK have done this with all previous airlines they have been closely associated with in the past.

[Radi K]

Did QF give EK any of the LHR slots they so desperately wanted?

[Joe Frampton]

IMHO Emirates will gut Qantas and it will be a shadow of its former self soon enough. EK have done this with all previous airlines they have been closely associated with in the past.

Well with no QF metal from ADL BNE or PER to London, I guess that sums it up. So if Nev & Bev want to fly QF metal they have to go via SYD or MEL right? For those that like EK out of BNE they will prevail and competitors like EY and SQ will give other options, and the Chinese too. I don't put much into the whole QF Asian thing... It won't connect anywhere so why would I bother? Just fly SQ or MH etc. if I wanna go via Asia right? Or Lowcost on AirAsia or Scoot? Pretty much the end of QF out of BNE except LAX and some smaller stuff like MNL and HKG that won't connect to BA anymore right? Hard to get excited except it means survival mmm

[Bernie P]

Has there ever been QF metal from ADL, PER or BNE? Not really, as you would have to change, in most likely, SIN or another asian location.

BNE, to FRA, but thats it...

So now, when EK commence ADL, you can still get to LHR on QF flight no's, just on EK metal to DXB then QF from there, as you will PER and BNE. You will still earn the same QF FF points if it is EK or QF.

Alternatively, catch the QF metal to SIN, as you would now, and then get a oneworld alliance carrier from there, but will the service be any better, I think not...

[Joe Frampton]

Travel Daily update today...

But that’s not all - Qantas ceo Alan Joyce also confirmed that
existing codeshare partnerships with Air France (into Paris) and
Cathay Pacific (into Rome) would be terminated under the pact.
As expected, the deal will also see the end of the Qantas route
to Frankfurt, which has been “underperforming for some time”.
“Wherever Emirates operate into Europe, Qantas will code on
those flights,” Joyce said.


So basically those Singapore connections won't really be there anymore.... I love Singapore Airport... Terminal 1 is gonna get kinda quiet around midnight now.... end of an era I spose :(

[Jim M]

A supposed increased capacity on QF to SIN

Now thats what i'm wondering...With the cancellation of the SIN/FRA and
SIN/LHR flights out of Sydney and Melbourne, what is going to happen with flights to places like SIN and HKG for that matter on QF Metal?
In effect,they are cancelling all flights that currently operate from SYD and MEL to SIN. I realise they are saying that they will still fly to these places with their own aircraft, but i wonder what the schedules will be like,what the capacity will be like and the big one,what equipment will be used???

And i am just wondering,with the delivery of the first of their 787s in 2013, will JQ somehow be involved with these Australia to Asia flights and maybe not so much QF?

Wouldn't mind hearing some others' thoughts on this.

Jim

[Bernie P]

You can still get to FCO and/CDG on a QF flight number, still QF ex Aust to DXB and then EK ex DXB...

We need not be so precious about these 'legacy' alliances and move forward into exciting times...:D

[Bernie P]

Jim,

I recall reading that flights will be re-aligned to better meet's business needs in the Asian region... A few A33X will be deployed on these routes, wether these are ex JQ or mainline, i dont know... An increase in flights, I remember a capacity rise of c. 40%, so I think it would be a better money maker for QF.

[Michael Cleary]

No doubt the hotel that QF uses for crew in Singapore will cry poor too, as well as Changi itself.

I have long avoided using QF to go to Europe, as I have an aversion to having to go to LHR and then transfer. Next time I might give it a try via DXB.

[Ash W]

IMHO Emirates will gut Qantas and it will be a shadow of its former self soon enough. EK have done this with all previous airlines they have been closely associated with in the past.

How are they going to do this?

[Kieran Wells]

We need not be so precious about these 'legacy' alliances and move forward into exciting times...:D

Im surprised if anyone would be "precious" about losing an alliance with CX... QF and CX don't like each other and rarely co-operate with each other.. bit like 2 fighting kids in a school room..

[Mike W]

I suppose this means the end of those great value EK trans-tasman flights. NZ will be rubbing their hands together or sure. I know of heaps of Kiwis who fly with EK who used to do NZ. Can QF pick up all that slack?

[Bernie P]

China Airlines have rtn Business for c. $500 to AKL!!!

[Thomas Collins]

Qantas will still operate to Hong Kong and Singapore.

In this case - to and from. Current timing supports European operations.

Now with Europe removed, Qantas can re-time services to best support demand and be more competitive with CX and SQ etc.

[Sarah C]

I suppose this means the end of those great value EK trans-tasman flights. NZ will be rubbing their hands together or sure. I know of heaps of Kiwis who fly with EK who used to do NZ. Can QF pick up all that slack?

They haven't announced anything yet on the Tasman. I still expect them to fly across the Tasman, given the cost of parking thier aircraft particularly in Sydney.

[Kieran Wells]

China Airlines have rtn Business for c. $500 to AKL!!!

Looks like all promo fares gone.. Crica $660 rtn during promo period, then up to $1070 afterwards..

[Mick B]

Regarding Singapore and Hong Kong flights, the devil is in the detail...

“We will increase dedicated capacity to Singapore..."

The way I read that, means that any flights operating SYD/MEL-SIN are now "dedicated" and will terminate there, rather than continuing onto LHR or FRA.

So flights of any nature will be an increase in "dedicated capacity", because previously they all continued onto Europe. (except PER/BNE/ADL...the routes that will be dropped).

More cow dung from the masters of spin!

[Ash W]

It's true though! As for PER/BNE/ADL if you look at the detail you will see Qantas still plans to fly to those locations, the ONLY thing given to EK are the passengers going to DXB and beyond.

[Rowan McKeever]

So flights of any nature will be an increase in "dedicated capacity", because previously they all continued onto Europe.

Not quite... as mentioned by someone else earlier a certain percentage (known only to QF and maybe BA) of the seats on every QF1/2, QF9/10 and QF5/6 is dedicated to Asian O&D traffic. So it's not as simple as saying every QF flight into SIN (other than ADL, BNE and PER) is an increase in dedicated capacity.

Separately, I wonder what equipment they will use for the 'new' SIN services? Perhaps BKK will go to EK which would give them equivalent to 1 A330?

[callum bain]

Dont know if this has already been posted...But will the Skywards and frequent flyer programs be merged?

[Thomas Collins]

Qantas will continue to service Singapore from existing cities.

From some ports, services will be increased to deliver increased frequency to compete against Singapore Airlines and re-timed to support the corporate market.

There will be no onward traffic on Qantas metal to Europe from Singapore.

[Bernie P]

Dont know if this has already been posted...But will the Skywards and frequent flyer programs be merged?

Hi Callum,

They will be 'stand alone' programs, and will continue to operate the same way they are now, with the exception that you can you your FF points on the other carriers flights if you want...

[Grahame Hutchison]

All the Qantas promotional material that has been published in the past couple of days has indicated that FF points can be used and earned on both carriers, however I did hear Tim Clark from Emirates say that this was a "work in progress", and they still need to agree on equivalent status levels etc.

[Bernie P]

It will be interesting to see how SQ respond to this, thinking outside of the actual QF/EK decision... Will SQ boost flights/capacity to try and win those QF pax that are not happy with this decision perhaps? I don't know, but I think some interesting times ahead, and not just for QF/EK...

THE Singaporean government has admitted that the island state will be impacted by Qantas's decision to move its regional hub to Dubai but says it can replace the lost airline and passenger flows.
Singapore's Minister for Trade and Industry Lim Hng Kiang said on Monday that Qantas's change of direction was a commercial decision.

"Of course (it) will have some impact on us," Mr Lim told reporters in Canberra.

"But at the same time, there are air slots that Qantas can use and the air traffic in Asia and South-East Asia is growing.

"So what we may lose in terms of the European flow, we hope to rebuild again."

The minister is in Australia for the 7th Singapore-Australia Joint Ministerial Committee meeting.

Last week, Qantas announced its flights to Europe would now stop over in Dubai, under a 10-year partnership signed between the carrier and Middle East airline Emirates.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/singapore-weighs-post-qantas-options/story-e6frfku9-1226470981671#ixzz262Fdd5EH

[Justin L]

I'm interested in the retiming of SIN and HKG flights to enhance connectivity in Asia. Is it safe to assume that SIN connections will focus around 3K and JL flight connections, and HKG around CX connections? Or will QF potentially add on tag flights to say India or other areas of SE Asia in between turnarounds similar to long haul flights into Australia doing NZ returns (and European airlines into SIN having SE Asia tag flights)?

If the latter is the case, depending on their rights, could this potentially somewhat fill the whole by their abandoned premium SE Asian carrier by flying QF metal on additional routes?

[Ash W]

Justin they don't have the a/c to do add on flights. Wide bodies won't work with the passenger volumes Qantas could possibly carry into Singapore and even wide bodies would work Qantas really doesn't have aircraft spare to do it. Indeed I cannot see where they are going to get the a/c to change the SYD/MEL Singapore flights from A380/747 in addition to the continuation of 747 deliveries.

About all that comes to mind is giving SYD-BKK to EK which would free up one A330, but I reckon they would need more just to replace the A380 services to Singapore, let alone enhance them with frequencies.

[D Chan]

This move is a strategically sound one and is a good fit for both parties with mutual benefits. I tend to think Emirates has a lot to gain from this partnership but it also buys Qantas some time to sort the international arm out i.e. return to profitability etc. More importantly AJ has yet again leveraged the successful loyalty business in achieving this outcome and getting the deal across the line, and no doubt the proposal was too lucrative for Emirates to turn down. Another key aspect is solving the European problem (Heathrow-centric) and untangling european operations from asian flights, which allows for opportunities to re-jig the QF network in South East Asia (and potentially even New Zealand as well).. I also think from a marketing perspective there could potentially be joint marketing opportunities (and savings) in Australia between EK and QF.

I think if John Borghetti got the CEO role at Qantas a few years ago, he would probably have proceeded with a partnership similar to VA's with Etihad. I think John deserves credit for this QF-EK outcome because of his 'game change' at VA, he has not only changed VA but indirectly QF as well.

[Malcolm Parker]

In its submission to the ACCC, qantas has identified it will withdraw from Europe if the deal does not go ahead.

http://www.aviationbusiness.com.au/news/qantas-outlines-gloom-without-emirates-deal

Qantas has outlined a gloomy future for its international operations if the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) rejects the codeshare deal with Emirates.

In a submission to the ACCC asking for the deal to be approved, Qantas says the tie-up with the Dubai-based carrier is essential to stop the slide in international market share.

"While Qantas International may historically have been regarded as ‘dominant’, this is not the reality. To the contrary, it is clear that it is no longer possible for Qantas International to sustainably ‘go it alone’ as an international network carrier," the submission states.

"For many years Qantas International has been supported by the other profitable Qantas businesses (Qantas Domestic, Qantas Frequent Flyer (QFF) and Jetstar) but its losses have continued to grow – culminating in a $450 million loss in fiscal year 2012 compared with a loss of $216 million in 2010-2011.

"The growing magnitude of losses cannot continue."

According to Qantas, there are two main reasons for the decline in the flying kangaroo as a dominant force in international travel.

1.Full service carriers based at mid-point hubs such as Singapore, Hong Kong, the Middle East or locations in China have an immediate and significant geographic advantage over an end-of-line carrier
2.Most mid-point carriers have strategic economic advantages associated with low or no tax, government funded infrastructure and access to developing economy labour costs resulting in sustainably and substantially lower operating costs.
Failures to negotiate deals with Asian mid-point carriers such as Singapore Airlines, Malaysian and Cathay have been cited as a major reason for Qantas' market share continuing to decline.

Approval or not, the ACCC submission makes it clear that Europe is not economically sustainable and that Frankfurt is on the chopping block.

"At this point, Qantas International only operates three daily services to Europe – two to London and one to Frankfurt (compared to five daily services six months ago). Qantas will discontinue its Frankfurt service irrespective of whether the Proposed Conduct [the codeshare deal] proceeds.

"In addition, absent the ability to coordinate with one of the mid-point carriers, Qantas International’s current European network will contract further, with the possible withdrawal of one of the daily London services in the short term.

"In the long term, Qantas International will only invest in new aircraft and operate to those ports where it can make an appropriate return on capital – this will not include Europe."

[Justin L]

I was catching up on some RSS feeds and came across this interesting article (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/dubai-deal-shakes-up-qantas-network-20120910-25nei.html) of how the QF/EK alliance doesn't offer all that many good connections at DXB for all but a handful of westbound connections when using QF metal, and that an all EK metal flight is the better choice for anything except LHR.

The article compares times with Asian airlines flying out of their hubs, but no mention of any comparison to VA/EY. I haven't got time to check, but how does the QF/EK alliance compare with VA/EY in terms of connections at DXB and AUH respectively?

[Thomas Collins]

Emirates may well re-time some European services ex Dubai to coincide with the Qantas flight arrivals.

Considering "additional" volume will now be funnelled into Dubai - Emirates may increase capacity by additional services etc.

Let's just see how this plays out.

[Michael Cleary]

Not surprisingly, the submission by Virgin Australia to the ACCC opposes the approval, even though Virgin has a similar tie-up with Etihad.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/virgin-warns-on-qantas-alliance-with-emirates-20120924-26gxl.html

[Thomas Collins]

Hypocrites...

[damien b]

Not really - QANTAS has opposed most ties ups that Virgin has sought and is even trying to break the tie up with Singapore Airlines as it suits its own requirements for Asia. Its all about protecting your market share and i am sure Virgin would love QANTAS international to fail as would QANTAS love Virgin to fail.

If QANTAS had been smart they would have kept the codeshare with Emirates that they had in the 90's and been better positioned for it than they are now.

[Rowan McKeever]

Hypocrites...

I don't agree. As Damien points out, QF was only too happy to oppose to every application DJ ever made. Not to mention there's a HUGE difference in the respective size and reach of the two alliances.

[Andi O]

I thought it was a given that you try to quash any competitive advantages your competition are trying to make? Welcome to the real world :rolleyes:

[Thomas Collins]

I agree if fair enough for one of the airlines to argue "unfair advantage" with this sort of tie up - but if they're both going down the same path - then I don't see why the other now needs to oppose when they're doing the same thing?

That's all...

[Thomas Collins]

Noted this in the media...

Etihad endorses QF and EK alliance – Etihad CEO James Hogan has said he is delighted Emirates has followed his lead and forged a network tie-up with an Australian carrier.

Last month, Virgin Australia, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand lodged submissions with the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission (ACCC) opposing the partnership.

[Stefan Perkas]

Evening all,

Below are the planned schedule changes for some of the Qantas International schedules from March2013. These changes will occur regardless of the outcome of the QF-EK approval.

QANTAS today (04OCT12) begins adjusting its Northern Summer schedule in 2013, which reflects the airline’s planned cooperation with Emirates, which is currently subject to approval.

The airline will go ahead with the planned changes regardless whether it received approval, according to the press statement. Planned changes are:



Note the airline has started updating operational schedules at time this post goes to press, therefore there are several schedule discrepancies currently in effect. This post will be updated throughout the day once additional schedules being loaded in the system.

Melbourne – Singapore NEW Dedicated Daily terminator service with Boeing 747-400
QF035 MEL1340 – 1920SIN 744 D
QF036 SIN2135 – 0655+1MEL 744 D

Sydney – Singapore New 4 weekly terminator service with morning departures from Sydney
QF081 SYD0940 – 1600SIN 333 x246
QF082 SIN2015 – 0605+1SYD 333 x246

Sydney – Singapore – Frankfurt The Daily service will continue to operate until late-October 2013, instead of previously planned 30MAR13
QF005 SYD1550 – 2200SIN2330 – 0615+1FRA 744 D

QF006 FRA2220 – 1640+1SIN2000 – 0525+2SYD 744 246
QF006 FRA2220 – 1640+1SIN2030 – 0605+2SYD 744 x246

Sydney – Dubai – London Heathrow Daily A380 service
QF001 SYD1605 – 0035+1DXB0205+1 – 0635+1LHR 388 D
QF002 Schedule to be updated

Melbourne – Dubai – London Heathrow Daily A380 service
Schedule to be updated

Following is the previously planned schedule for Northern Summer 2013, prior to today’s schedule change:
Sydney – Singapore – London Heathrow
QF001 SYD1610 – 2230SIN2359 – 0635+1LHR 388 D
QF002 LHR2130 – 1730+1SIN1920+1 – 0510+2SYD 388 D

Melbourne – Singapore – London Heathrow
QF009 MEL1530 – 2125SIN2305 – 0540+1LHR 38 D
QF010 LHR2230 – 1840+1SIN2020+1 – 0525+2MEL 388 D


Infpo from: http://airlineroute.net/2012/10/04/qf-s13-update1/

[Ash W]

To add to that for the time being passengers on QF1/2/9/10 may stop over in DXB on their way to/from London, but Qantas cannot carry passengers to/from DXB as a standalone destination as they don't currently have the passenger rights.

[Andi O]

Fifth freedom rights for countries beyond UAE/Australia are only limited to the number of flights allowed between the two countries (currently 123 per week). Apart from that there are no restrictions on Aussie airlines picking up pax in Dubai for onwards to other countries (Just as Emirates do between Aus and NZ)
The only thing stopping QF doing that at the moment is the fact that they have not yet been granted capacity to operate to Dubai which they have currently applied for.

See :
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/2005/8.html


The codeshare/interlining with Emirates is a seperate issue which needs to be approved by the ACCC

[Rowan McKeever]

ACCC has announced a draft determination to approve the QF/EK alliance. Looks like they've proposed it be a 5 year alliance rather than the 10 years put up by the airlines.

[Bernie P]

QANTAS' partnership with Emirates is set to receive approval from the competition watchdog.
In a draft decision handed down on Thursday, The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) said it would authorise an alliance between the two airlines for a period of five years.

"The ACCC considers that the alliance is likely to result in material, although not substantial, benefits to Australian consumers," ACCC Chairman Rod Sims said in a statement.

Qantas and Emirates had been seeking a 10-year approval from the ACCC, but Mr Sims said he had concerns about potential fare increases on flights between Australia and New Zealand.

The tie-up between Qantas and Emirates will involve a sharing of schedules, pricing and marketing on routes between Australia and Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Asia and across the Tasman.

Mr Sims said it will lessen competition on some international routes, but competition from other airlines would mitigate that impact.

However, Qantas and Emirates could reduce or limit capacity on routes between Australia and New Zealand under their partnership, which could result in higher airfares, he said.

"Given the dynamic nature of the aviation industry, the limited extent of public benefits and the significant role of the trans-Tasman capacity condition in the ACCC's decision, the ACCC considers it appropriate to review this authorisation earlier than the ten years requested by Qantas and Emirates," Mr Sims said.

Approval from the ACCC provides Qantas and Emirates immunity from court action for conduct that raises concerns about competition.

Qantas and Emirates are seeking a final decision from the ACCC before the end of March 2013.
Read more: News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/qantas-and-emirates-deal-gets-green-light/story-e6frfkur-1226540880615#ixzz2FXVSRjDB)

[Bernie P]

ACCC has announced a draft determination to approve the QF/EK alliance. Looks like they've proposed it be a 5 year alliance rather than the 10 years put up by the airlines.

JUST beat me too it... :D

[Rowan McKeever]

ACCC final approval has been granted... at T-minus-4-days!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-27/accc-approves-qantas-emirates-air-alliance/4596740?section=business

[Justin L]

What is the condition mentioned in the article with relation to flights between Australia and New Zealand? Is it something along the lines if maintaining frequency so as not to simply use the capacity of the A380 "shuttle services"?

[Rowan McKeever]

Justin this is from the ACCC media release:

“The ACCC considers that the alliance is likely to result in detriments through its effect on competition in regions where Qantas and Emirates currently offer competing air passenger and cargo transport services. However, in most of these regions, the ACCC has identified competitive constraints which mean that these detriments are likely to be minimal,” Mr Sims said.

“The one exception is the trans-Tasman where Qantas and Emirates compete on four routes which accounted for around 65% of total passenger capacity between Australia and New Zealand in the year to 30 June 2012. On these routes, the ACCC is concerned that Qantas and Emirates will have the ability and incentive to reduce or limit growth in capacity in order to raise airfares.”

In order to address this concern, the ACCC has imposed a condition of authorisation which requires the airlines to maintain at least their pre-alliance aggregate capacity on the four overlapping trans-Tasman routes, subject to a review to consider whether increases in the minimum required capacity are warranted.

With this condition, the ACCC is satisfied that the relevant net public benefit tests are met.

http://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-grants-conditional-authorisation-for-an-alliance-between-qantas-and-emirates

[Justin L]

Thanks for that Rowan. Appreciate it.

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Please note this when flying into Dubai:

This article was taken from the Melbourne Age:

Don't kiss, don't swear: rules of a Dubai stopover

Date March 26, 2013

Robert Upe

Travel and Tourism Writer

Culture clash ... swimwear is appropriate by the pool or on the beach in Dubai but frowned on elsewhere. Low-cut dresses or tops, short skirts and short dresses are not recommended in public.

Australians travelling through Dubai have been warned they are at risk of fines or jail for cultural misdemeanours as simple as holding hands in public, swearing, harassing women with a prolonged stare or wearing inappropriate clothing.

''Just one person needs to take offence and to make a complaint and you can be in serious trouble and be held in custody for a long time if you challenge the charge,'' said Radha Stirling, founder of the non-profit organisation Detained in Dubai, which helps people in legal difficulty in the United Arab Emirates.

Qantas will enter a partnership with Emirates this Sunday that will result in its flights to Europe being routed through Dubai instead of Singapore.


Don't get too close ... public displays of affection are not tolerated.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade warns on its website that de facto relationships, homosexual relationships and acts of adultery and prostitution are subject to severe punishment.


''It is also against the law in the UAE to share the same hotel room with someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not married or closely related,'' DFAT cautions. ''These laws apply to residents as well as visitors.''

Drinking in public or being drunk in public is another offence that can land travellers in strife. Australian travellers of Jewish background who are Israeli passport holders can only transit through Dubai and are not allowed to leave the airport because the UAE is a participant in the Arab League boycott of Israel.


An Emirati woman passes by a dress code sign at a shopping mall in Dubai.

"Qantas has said that Jewish and Israeli passengers will be safe transiting through Dubai, provided they don't leave the airport,'' Ms Stirling said. ''But what happens in the event of a catastrophe or severe weather when airport hotels are full?''

The partnership with Qantas and Emirates comes into effect on March 31, and will result in more Australians in Dubai than ever before, adding to the 50 million people -- including 2 million Aussies -- who already pass through there each year.

''While this is a new hub for Qantas, many Australians are already familiar with it,'' a Qantas spokesman said.

''Different rules apply in many of the countries we fly to, which is the very nature of international travel.

''We encourage all our passengers - whether they are travelling to Asia or the US or the UAE - to check the Australian government's Smart Traveller website so they are fully informed of local laws and customs before they board our aircraft,'' the spokesman said.

Qantas has been providing cultural training for its staff before the alliance with Emirates, advising that customer issues with UAE passengers may be best solved by a man.

''Don't take offence, don't continue to try and sort something out, simply hand it over to a male colleague. It doesn't matter whether you are the manager or supervisor, the fact that he is male will make all the difference,'' is the advice.

Laurent Chaudet, the general manager of the Pullman Mall of Emirates hotel, said: ''Australians might think of Dubai as an ultra-modern destination, but they need to remember that it is a Muslim country with traditional values.

''The simple advice would be to wear respectful clothing, avoid drunkenness and use of foul language, and respect the culture of the people here.''

Paul McGrath, the managing director of Australia's largest independent travel company Creative Holidays, is enthusiastic about Dubai coming on to the radar with the Qantas/Emirates alliance.

He said 40 per cent of people booking Europe trips with the company already stop over in Dubai for an average of four days on the way back.

Mr McGrath rates Dubai for its diversity, from shopping to desert experiences.

''I'd say that people just have to be conscious and mindful of the cultural differences. Be aware and be informed and there really isn't that much of a problem. They are lovely people, gracious and gentle ...''

Several tourists and expatriates have run afoul of conservative rules in the UAE in recent years.

In 2010, a British couple were arrested and sentenced to a month in jail for kissing in public in Dubai.

In 2009, an Australian man was arrested for allegedly saying “What the f---?” to a plainclothes police officer who grabbed his arm at Dubai Airport. He was forced to remain in Dubai for months before being let go with a fine.

In the most prominent case, a British couple were jailed for three months in 2008 after having drunken sex on a public beach.

Two Emirati women started an online campaign last year, called UAE Dress Code, urging foreigners to respect local sensitivities and not dress provocatively.

DUBAI RULES


The drinking age is 21. Drinking in public or being drunk in public are not tolerated.
Offensive language, spitting, aggressive behaviour and smoking outside designated areas are not tolerated.
Public displays of affection such as holding hands or kissing are not tolerated.
It is customary for men to shake hands however Emirati women tend not to offer their hands to men.
Men should avoid staring at local women or attempting to make eye contact.
During Ramadan while Muslims are fasting from dawn to dusk, non-Muslims can only eat and drink in screened-off areas in many hotels and restaurants.
Wear respectful clothing. Swimwear is appropriate by the pool or on the beach but frowned on elsewhere. Low-cut dresses or tops, short skirts and short dresses are not recommended in public.
Men should wear a T-shirt or shirt at all times.

*Source: Dubai Department of Tourism and Commerce Marketing.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/dont-kiss-dont-swear-rules-of-a-dubai-stopover-20130326-2grsc.html#ixzz2OkeJrlTE

I wonder how many Aussies will get locked up for breaking local customs and rules?? Me thinks the Australian Consulate will be very busy!!!

Stuart

[Andrew P]

nil, Australians have been flying through the Middle East for years, originally with Gulf and Qantas through Bahrain and then through Dubai since Emirates started in Australia in the 90's, and how many have been locked up as tourists, nil

[Sarah C]

nil, Australians have been flying through the Middle East for years

Exactly. How many years has Emirates been flying here? Shock horror, other carriers like Etihad and Gulf Air.......

As with any destination, any traveller has to know the laws and customs before flying there. It is clear the media want to whip up hysteria.

[Ash W]

and how many have been locked up as tourists, nil

Doubt that, but agree with the overall sentiment. Besides middle east, Asia, US etc each country has their own laws and customs we need to respect and really it isn't up to the airline to warn or tell us how to behave. Also if you don't like a particular country fly to or through somewhere else, on another carrier if need be.

[Bernie P]

I personally think that this is simply a case of 'scaremongering' at its finest!!!

Dubai, and even Doha where I have visited many times, is actually quite 'western' and embracing of western cultures and people, unlike its neighbouring state of Saudi... In both Dubai and Doha, alcohol is permitted in hotels, and when I was in contract negotiations for a position in Doha, I was even told of how the purchasing and storage of alcohol was managed; there is even an 'expats village' where there is a bar, and a nightclub for expats!

Sure, if you go there expecting Kuta or similar, then you will find yourself in a bit of 'hot water' but for the most part, you wont find those type of places there!

As far as I can recommend, go via Dubai, Doha even, embrace the culture and experience of the Middle East, for your experience of the country will be long remembered!

[Stephen Brown]

But don't take your girlfriend or boyfriend.....

[Kurt A]

QANTAS AND EMIRATES DUAL A380 FLY OVER

Date: Sunday 31 March 2013
Time: 9:20 – 10:50am
Location: Sydney Opera House

Photo Opportunity:
Flight Plan: Aircraft will take off from Sydney International at 9:20am. Both aircraft will fly north to Longreef, then south and slightly out to sea, where they will turn and come into Sydney Harbour over Watson’s Bay, then position to the north side of the Harbour, where they will pass the Sydney Opera House and fly over the Sydney Harbour Bridge at 10.30am. They will then fly as far as the Gladesville Bridge, turn around and come back in the same formation. The Qantas plane will lead at a height of 1500ft with the Emirates aircraft to the right and higher.

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

You are missing the point.

While EK and other Middle East Airlines have flown here for years, this will be the first time that our Flag Carrier Qantas will ops via Dubai, instead of Singapore.

Singapore is a more lade back society, similiar to us in many ways, but Dubai is strict. The Normal well travelled passenger won't be affected by these Laws, but the 20+s Back Packer / those looking for fun on their way to/from LHR who get a little ****ed, may be in trouble, particuarly those with girlfriends etc...

That was the point I was trying to make.

Stuart

[Rowan McKeever]

Kurt it's times like 0920-1050 this Sunday that make me wish I was in Sydney... that would be an amazing sight!!!

[Ash W]

Singapore is almost a police state in reality and those looking to play up can and do get caught out by the local laws.

About all that changes is the via City. The rest is essentially traveller be aware, just like visiting any country.

[StevenW]

The rest is essentially traveller be aware, just like visiting any country.

Sure, but now we're routed through a country that imprisons rape victims for adultery.

Singapore is much more civilized - they imprison the rapist!

[Jayden Laing]

Daily Telegraph are reporting the aircraft as being A330's :rolleyes: I think they meant A380 (perhaps)??


A Qantas A330 and Emirates A330 will take off from Sydney Airport at 9.20am and fly north to Longreef before turning and flying to Watson's Bay.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/travel/news/qantas-and-emirates-to-stage-flyover-over-sydney-harbour-to-mark-partnership-deal/story-e6frezi0-1226608348515

[Ryan K]

And a Herald Sun report has made reference to the Qantas and Emirates "merger"..... :rolleyes:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/terry-mccranns-column/qantas-merger-seals-future-of-the-national-carrier/story-e6frfig6-1226607991945

[Ash W]

Sure, but now we're routed through a country that imprisons rape victims for adultery.

Singapore is much more civilized - they imprison the rapist!

The answer is simple. Don't like the country fly someone else. No one is forcing you to fly Qantas or Emirates, though clearly considering the number of passengers that Emirates, Virgin Australia and Ethiad already, and soon Qantas will take via the UAE you would be in the minority.

[StevenW]

The answer is simple. Don't like the country fly someone else. No one is forcing you to fly Qantas or Emirates, though clearly considering the number of passengers that Emirates, Virgin Australia and Ethiad already, and soon Qantas will take via the UAE you would be in the minority.

I wouldn't fly Qantas or Emirates to Europe anyway, so it's a moot point in my case. Besides, I'd argue that the majority of people choosing to fly those carriers don't know the risks they are running, particularly women stopping over rather than simply transiting.

The point still stands, though. The masses of Australians transiting or stopping over in Dubai are going to need some pointers as to which crimes committed against them are safe to report to police, lest they find themselves arrested for being the victim of a crime.

Seriously - imprisoning women for adultery because they've been raped? It beggars belief that any sane person would step foot in a country that treats women like that, let alone think it's a good idea to route thousands of women through that country every day.

I'm amazed that the whole punishing the victim mentality of that part of the world isn't getting more publicity. It's a legitimate concern, and one that most travellers need to be made aware of.

[Justin L]

Do QF metal flights allow only SYD/MEL-DXB only bookings yet (that is Australia-Dubai origin-destination bookings) or only as a stopover still at this stage?

[Thomas Collins]

In relation to the other discussion; I think you'll find that with the additional Qantas metal now carrying "Australians" into Dubai, there will be an even greater contingent staying on stop-overs.

The fact that most people don't know it is even illegal to share a hotel room (male and female) unless you are married, will cause a lot of issues for Australians not used to this laws outside of Western culture.

Airport hotels are fine - whilst airside, there are no issues, but once you land in Dubai, it is a different ball game...

[Dan Collins]

Excited about the flyover - now to see how I can best view it on the day.

As for the Dubai thing, my girlfriend and I transitted through there in 2010 under different surnames and we shared a hotel room without problem. Dubai is an amazing place and didn't feel intimidating at all - the people there were very welcoming - though I wouldn't try anything stupid at immigration or security in the airport.

Dan

[Andrew M]

I know of many many people who have stayed in Dubai hotel as a couple and have not had any problems!

[Ash W]

In relation to the other discussion; I think you'll find that with the additional Qantas metal now carrying "Australians" into Dubai, there will be an even greater contingent staying on stop-overs.

The fact that most people don't know it is even illegal to share a hotel room (male and female) unless you are married, will cause a lot of issues for Australians not used to this laws outside of Western culture.

Airport hotels are fine - whilst airside, there are no issues, but once you land in Dubai, it is a different ball game...



Qantas's two flights a day will be a minor increase in capacity to the UAE from Australia. There are already a dozen or so Emirates flights a day plus Ethiad and Virgin Australia flights too. So 2 extra out of say 16 or so a day.

With those 16 flights a day already, do you hear of people being locked up on a daily basis? The answer of course is no.

[Mark Grima]

Hey guys,

Which aircraft operated the flyover and which QF aircraft is operating the inaugural flight?

Cheers

M

[Dan Collins]

Mark, it was VH-OQJ and A6-EDY in the flyover. Believe OQJ will perform QF1 to DXB and LHR.

Dan

[Mark Grima]

Thanks mate.

[Mick F]

I've just spent 5 days in Dubai, as well as 5 days in Qatar. All this scaremongering by the media is utter rubbish. The UAE people are quite friendly, and in the Dubai Emirate at least, are tolerable to some Western things. That said, it's common courtesy to respect their own beliefs and culture, just like you would any other country. It's plain common sense and the travellers responsibility to research the countries they are visiting. If you don't like it, travel elsewhere.

Mick

[Lawrie L]

Yeah Dubai is a lovely country but sometimes the local always keep asking for extra money for more services and help and so on.

However, the problem is that...how to cross the road if there are no traffic lights. Do you feel safe if you want to try to cross the road if the traffic is busy?

[Mick F]

I didn't come across anywhere that didn't have crossings in at least the tourist areas Lawrie.

Mick

[A McLaughlin]

Mick - good point re local customs. Just because QF starts flying there suddenly the mainstream media is beating up what may or may not happen if you wear a tank top or dare to hold hands with your partner. It's as if Dubai has suddenly been opened up to the western world for the first time!

[David C]

It always amazes me how narrow minded and blighted with tunnel vision some people are . I with my wife have travelled to the UAE and Bahrain many times , have never ever felt unwelcomed , or had any patronizing or unwanted attention .. I've consumed alcohol in the public areas of hotels with no objections , indeed , there is an Irish themed pub at Dubai Airport , that would be a public area would it not ? ..People need to take off their Rose tinted glasses and throw away their blinkers and see the " real World " ..

Dave C

[Danny G]

The Qantas PR department will counter this report & tour groups will handle any issues .

[MarkR]

I was on the inaugural QF1 and have to say its a fantastic destination, just got back on Nancy Bird and we broke her, needed to be towed on landing.

[Jim M]

Have to agree wholeheartedly with everything Mick and Dave said.

Spot on guys,nothing more to be said.

Cheers
Jim

[Trevor Sinclair]

QF confirms it was an hydraulics issue - Sky News reprt here:

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2013/04/04/Qantas_confirms_hydraulic_system_failure_860500.ht ml

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

With the EK/QF Alliance now done, what does this mean for Jetstar expansion plans into Europe?
Was Jetstar serious about ops into places like Rome, EX SIN? It's well with range of A332 A/C at 10057kms ex SIN.

Or has this idea gone cold now?
Where would JQ look to ops the B787 Dreamliner?

Stuart

[Ash W]

Did Jetstar ever say that was their plan, or was it media commentators wishful thinking?

As for the 787 where are they going to operate them? Easy to places where they currently operate the A330's with a couple for minor route expansion.

[Bernie P]

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201320/SCCZEN_A_020413SPLEMIRATES_460x230.jpg

The government has given the green light to an agreement between Qantas and Emirates, opening the way to shared services between the airlines on transtasman routes.

Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee said the "Master Coordination Agreement" would bring benefits to airline passengers, exporters and the tourism sector.

Travel agents have been frustrated at the delay in approving the deal which got the green light in Australia six weeks ago. The agreement will allow the airlines to better co-ordinate their services to New Zealand destinations and allow passengers to benefit from each of the carriers' frequent flyer schemes. It also opens up the possibility of new routes being developed with Auckland-Adelaide and Auckland-Perth possibilities.

Air New Zealand fought parts of the the agreement, fearing stronger competition on the route although others in the tourism sector have backed the deal.

Brownlee said Qantas and Emirates will be able to cooperate on passenger and air freight for an initial period of five years.

Exporters and travellers would benefit from strengthened connections with Emirates' international network, including 30 points in Europe, as well as the growing Middle East region and Africa.

"The Master Coordination Agreement sets the stage for Qantas and Emirates to share services across the Tasman, allowing Emirates to offer Queenstown and Wellington as tourism destinations accessible on their network," Mr Brownlee said.

Trans-Tasman competition would be maintained through existing carriers on the route and the threat of entry by new carriers, he said.

Under conditions imposed by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission airlines are required to maintain at least their pre-alliancecapacity, subject to a review to consider whether increases in the minimum required capacity are warranted.

"Competition between strong home carriers is important for the Australasian aviation market, and this alliance will ensure competition is retained, while opening the door to additional benefits for New Zealand," said Mr Brownlee.
Source - Qantas, Emirates partnership gets the nod (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10883775)

[Rowan McKeever]

Will be interesting to see whether the AKL-ADL/PER ever become a reality, and for PER what equipment would be used (one would imagine B767 but how will that compete with NZ and its B777).

[Ash W]

I would have thought if anyone Emirates would operate PER-AKL rather than Qantas. It's not like Qantas has the equipment lying around to add a flight like that.

[Stuart Trevena]

HI All,

With Qantas now shredding jobs faster than anything to get their costs down, I was wondering what sort of impact has this joint Partnership has had on QF.

Qantas has dropped many routes since they joined with EK, and I believe this has hurt QF big time.

I still don't understand why QF had to drop old Kangaroo Route through Singapore to London.

Why couldn't EK drop EK404/405 DXB to MEL via SIN?

Qantas should have forced EK to Drop that route all together and allowed it to operate on QF Metal either a A333 or B747, or even a A380 to DXB via SIN. Also they could have then also continued their feeder services from Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane.

QF 1/2 then could have also continued to ops via SIN to LHR, and also QF9/10 via SIN to LHR

This way QF could have picked up an extra route with Feeder services retained.

I say this QF and EK chase each other tails landing within 1 hour on each other into Mel on the DXB-MEL Legs and properly the same in Sydney.

And it would still be one stop into Europe, but on each countries airline.

It makes no sense to me.

Stuart

[Zac M]

The jobs haven't affected anything as of yet, as far as I am aware as I am aware the areas in which the cuts will be are yet to be announced!

[Ash W]

Qantas has dropped many routes since they joined with EK, and I believe this has hurt QF big time.

I still don't understand why QF had to drop old Kangaroo Route through Singapore to London.


So what are these MANY routes they have dropped?

What comes to mind to me is SIN-LHR, PER-HGK (which had nothing to do with the EK arrangement) and ADL-SIN.

As to why QF dropped the old Kangaroo route, very simple. Not everyone going to Europe is flying to London. Fly to London people then need to fly all the way to London to change to another carrier to get to their destination. Even for say Amsterdam this would add 4 hours to your journey time.

However fly through Dubai, people can change there and in most cases get to where they want to go one stop. An added bonus for those up front is not having to fly and then change to BA Club Europe.

[Ryan K]

Add SIN-FRA to that list also. Things aren't looking good for QF's South African service either. It seems to me that it's only Emirates and not Qantas that is benefiting from the QF-EK deal. In fact, things at Qantas only seem to have gone from bad to worse. Time for Joyce & Co to fall on their swords.

[Laurent Sanhard]

it was always a desperate move from Qantas to join Emirates and in doing so sacrifice its own routes , Qantas should have kept the Syd - Singapore - London route with a 777 and add Paris or Franfurt like the old days , again using a 777 instead of the A380 which can be hard to fill on competitive routes
giving better optiosn for people travelling to Europe from Australia who don't need to go to LHR , Emirates don't give a damn whether Qantas survive or not , they are simply going to swallow them whole ! If Qantas do give up the Syd - Joberg route then it is simply another nail in the Qantas coffin !:(

[lloyd fox]

Ash you forget that BNE,PER,ADL had the luxury of changing planes in SIN to fly to LHR which is no longer the case.I don't fly QF anymore but lot's of people still do, and this has not been good for them if they don't live in SYD or MEL.All these cities have to backtrack to SYD or MEL to fly Qantas.

cHEERS.

[Thomas Collins]

Laurent - suggest you do some reading up on bilateral agreements.

Qantas was unable to operate daily services between Singapore and Paris. The bilateral between Singapore and France, only permitted SQ and AF to do so.

How could Qantas be competitive?

[Ash W]

Ash you forget that BNE,PER,ADL had the luxury of changing planes in SIN to fly to LHR which is no longer the case.I don't fly QF anymore but lot's of people still do, and this has not been good for them if they don't live in SYD or MEL.All these cities have to backtrack to SYD or MEL to fly Qantas.

cHEERS.

I was responding to the claim they have dropped heaps of routes, but yes forgot SIN-FRA. Lack of connections is another issue altogether, that is for sure. But at the end of the day Qantas cannot be everything to everybody. We simply do not have the population and traffic to justify it. I mean to say even in the US with over 12 times the population of Australia it is quite common for passengers from cities the size of Adelaide and Perth to have to fly through a hub port to get to places in Europe, Asia the Pacific and even closer destinations like Central and South America.

[Mike W]

I was responding to the claim they have dropped heaps of routes, but yes forgot SIN-FRA. Lack of connections is another issue altogether, that is for sure. But at the end of the day Qantas cannot be everything to everybody. We simply do not have the population and traffic to justify it. I mean to say even in the US with over 12 times the population of Australia it is quite common for passengers from cities the size of Adelaide and Perth to have to fly through a hub port to get to places in Europe, Asia the Pacific and even closer destinations like Central and South America.

If we don't have the population, why do QF have behemoth 380s doing hub to hub instead of flying smaller planes point to point to more destinations?

[Steve S... 2]

I curse the A380.

An ugly aeroplane that has help contribute to QF's problems.

[Ryan K]

I agree. QF have old A330's flying around Asia and A380's flying half empty to London at various times of the year. Imagine if they had a fleet of Boeing 787's and Boeing 777's flying trans-Pacific routes, point to point Asian routes and services through to Europe and London? Oh, if only........

[Ash W]

If we don't have the population, why do QF have behemoth 380s doing hub to hub instead of flying smaller planes point to point to more destinations?

By smaller how small do you meant? A320/737 size or bigger? Because population wise A320 size is about what is needed for say a daily Perth/Adealide/Brisbane to London service, but clearly it cannot make it unless you want a couple of extra stops.

So the smallest that can make it 1 stop would be a 777-200 or maybe an A330, both of which would be too big for daily.

Also do not forget also that slots at Heathrow don't grow on trees either, though yes Qantas do have two pairs that they own but are currently leased out.

[Ash W]

[QUOTE=Ryan K;87614]QF have old A330's flying around AsiaQUOTE]

10 years is hardly old. If you had of said an old product then yes 10 is at the maximum of sensible, though Qantas is doing something about that this year, at about the right time.

[Laurent Sanhard]

Steve S , don't blame the A380 , Blame Qantas management for choosing it !! The A380 is designed for airlines such as Singapore and Emirates etc which have high volumes of flow through pax numbers ( HUB airports) , Australia is an end destination and Qantas management should have used its brains and gone for the 777 300 for Sydney - London , and maybe use the 777 or 787 later on US flights , keeping the 747 400ER as long as poss. the A380 is a great aircraft but in my view not suited to Qantas ,

[Neil L]

Guys,

QF has evaluated the B777 numerous times and have rejected it for a variety of reasons.

They are the technical experts, not anyone on this or other message boards

Give us all a break and stop saying QF should have B777's

They don't, so get over it !

It is such a boring discussion point for too many years

[Greg McDonald]

Guys,

QF has evaluated the B777 numerous times and have rejected it for a variety of reasons.

Or maybe not......

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-mulls-airbus-a350-boeing-777x-to-replace-boeing-747s

[Ryan K]

[QUOTE=Ryan K;87614]QF have old A330's flying around AsiaQUOTE]

10 years is hardly old. If you had of said an old product then yes 10 is at the maximum of sensible, though Qantas is doing something about that this year, at about the right time.

Sorry, I should have perhaps been more clear. I was referring to the A330 in-flight product. Old, small screens and seat covers that haven't been replaced since who knows how long.

[Neil L]

Qantas, as all airlines do, has evaluated many types (if not all major ones ) of aircraft over all the years.

The current range of B777's were extensively evaluated and rejected and the new B777X has only recently been launched and no doubt QF will look at that as well as the A350.

I refer to the older models of B777's that so many armchair experts think they know better that the QF technical and management people.

My original comments remain

[JamesL]

Guys,

QF has evaluated the B777 numerous times and have rejected it for a variety of reasons.

They are the technical experts, not anyone on this or other message boards

Give us all a break and stop saying QF should have B777's

They don't, so get over it !

It is such a boring discussion point for too many years

Bit of a sore point Neil?

The fact of the matter is that QF HAVE made a mistake, the incumbent board and leaders of the company are choosing to make that point stick. Whether you like to discuss it or not people are entitled to and can make judgements as they please whether informed or not.

The facts are well known that VAI is making profit with 5(!) B77Ws on key trunk routes as they have accepted they are a point to point airline much like ANZ. The B788 is a good choice for QFi not JQi which has had to alter their plans for services out of OOL due to not having the performance they thought it would with the pax numbers in current config.

Disclaimer: I work in the industry.

[JamesL]

Further, look at ANZ, they attained brand new B77W slots in a matter of months, I'm sure this is quite achievable with QFi, mind you QF has lost a lot of friends recently so that could be easier said then done, on the other hand their BFF has some decent slots...

[Neil L]

Not a sore point James.

Just as I express an opinion then so can you and others.

Just sick and tired of the anti QF attitudes and that they should have brought B777's that keep cropping up. To be honest just gets tedious as the subject is flogged to death over the years on this and other boards.

I worked in the industry for a long time and still have many reliable contacts including knowing some of those who were involved in those decisions.

Remember the A380 & B787-8/9 should have been delivered years earlier than has happened. They were ordered as the most suitable aircraft at that time. The B777's at that time were considered unsuitable.

Remember that VA also cancelled their 6th B777

As you know, things change rapidly in this business, that is why it is exciting.

[Thomas Collins]

The facts are well known that VAI is making profit with 5(!) B77Ws on key trunk routes…

Evidence of this James?

Everyone needs to remember that the fleet decisions were made in 2000. The plan was supposed to be A380 for hubbing, and B787 for point-to-point. The decisions were based on the operating environment at that time, which has also changed dramatically. Remember, there were limited LCC's. Jetstar, had not even been proposed.

For some reason everyone forgets that the B787 is some five years late… Makes a difference.

During that time, Jetstar was formed, and for a LCC to be profitable, it needs the lowest cASK's possible. The B787 delivers on those metrics, especially with fuel burn etc. Remember, JQ was not supposed to be kitted with 330's. B78's were supposed to be the fleet for JQI.

The Group had to deliver to JQ the first B787's in order to meet-the-model.

Qantas did not make any mistakes. It made the best decisions based on the equipment on offer at the time, and the B777 model offered at that time, did not offer the right economics, Qantas could achieve against the alternative metal, and "future" metal on offer…

Very different playing field 14 years ago…

[JamesL]

Not a sore point James.

Just as I express an opinion then so can you and others.

Just sick and tired of the anti QF attitudes and that they should have brought B777's that keep cropping up. To be honest just gets tedious as the subject is flogged to death over the years on this and other boards.

I worked in the industry for a long time and still have many reliable contacts including knowing some of those who were involved in those decisions.

Remember the A380 & B787-8/9 should have been delivered years earlier than has happened. They were ordered as the most suitable aircraft at that time. The B777's at that time were considered unsuitable.

Remember that VA also cancelled their 6th B777

As you know, things change rapidly in this business, that is why it is exciting.

Absolutely, and you are right, the 6th option was never cancelled ;)

[Jaryd stock]

Actually Thomas the mistake was made when Qantas was invited to share in the development by Boeing of the 777 and they refused to even consider it. Then again there was the decision to look in to the 777 series of aircraft during the early 2000's and again refused. Even Ex and current head management have acknowledged that this was an oversight, they were to 747/A380 centric and also not have the longsightedness to see that eventually the economy and introduction later on of LCC's impact on their 'brand' if you could call it that. Fair enough the board were looking at the tech for the there and then scenario but that really is narrow mindedness on their part.

Look at Air NZ as an example of how good management look to the future, not just the aircraft choices they've made but also the product they've established after some pretty bleak periods. They saw the good as nearly every other airline have done in the 777 and have reaped the rewards, also by being pro-active in their approach by thinking of a new product to introduce into service. And the way the board conducted themselves around their employees. It is interesting what Fyfe did early on to get Air NZ back to being a world class act.

In my mind the problems started long before Current board and CEO got in control.

[Montague S]

I agree. QF have old A330's flying around Asia and A380's flying half empty to London at various times of the year. Imagine if they had a fleet of Boeing 787's and Boeing 777's flying trans-Pacific routes, point to point Asian routes and services through to Europe and London? Oh, if only........

you reckon SQ or EK don't have half empty A380's flying out of god knows where at certain times of the year? and EK sure as heck has half empty 777's flying around the globe too, been on quite a few myself too.

[Grahame Hutchison]

ONE YEAR ON: QANTAS AND EMIRATES PARTNERSHIP BOOSTS AUSTRALIAN TOURISM


Qantas today announced new inbound tourism data for regional Australia as it marks the first year of the Qantas and Emirates partnership – with Queensland, Tasmania and the Northern Territory among the winners.


Full Story (http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/one-year-on-qantas-and-emirates-partnership-boosts-australian-tourism)