Larger VIP Jets backed by CDF

[Ray P.]

Australian CDF calls for larger RAAF VIP jets;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...05/2265464.htm

Hmmm, I think a couple of A330, B777s or whatever would look great in RAAF VIP colours. Interestingly, we haven't had the B737s very long at all, and apart from the size issue I don't think there is anything wrong with them. I would lean towards the A330 due to the MRTT purchase and the current QDS maintenance contract which will still has some time to go. Of course, there is every chance that this will all come to nothing.

[Jed W]

I would think if the ADF were to go bigger it would be the A330, due to, as you pointed out the MRTT purchase.

Although having said that, there are a lot of political obstacles in the way. The average tax payer would see this as an un-necessary indulgence by the Government.

I strongly feel that we should 'upgrade' to a larger aircraft however. The current BBJ's are not good for much. Due to the added long range fuel tanks, payload is significantly reduced. (down to 1 'small' bag for passengers) Also, the toilets have in the past overflowed on long flights due to the small containers.

It's time for something bigger...:rolleyes:

[Bob C]

Hi Jed

I guess that's hardly surprising given the support staff and Press contingents carried on overseas trips. The BBJs were never designed to carry large numbers of people in quasi airliner style ; rather the opposite of a privileged few in luxury.

And I'm a little cynical about this as I reckon if the Libs had purchased or leased bigger aircraft, the Press and Labour Party (in Opposition) would have had a field day - ie too big, too extravagant, waste of taxpayers' money etc etc. Amazing how being in Government changes attitudes and values.

From what I recall reading, the BBJ was NOT the preferred option, but rather the (even smaller ?) A319CJ. However, John Howard and/or senior public servants apparently overruled the RAAF advisers as Howard wanted the "American one" which was the only decent sized aircraft available to replace the B707 in the VIP role. Perhaps they should have considered the bigger BBJ2 ?

If this was the case, why would the RAAF have recommended the A319CJ ?

I've never seen inside a RAAF BBJ but believe it to be austere and functional, nothing like the photos we see of BBJs in private use -one came into Brisbane recently with a shower cubicle on board and gold plated taps among the many luxury fittings. Once again the previous Lib Govt deferred to the presumed wishes of the electorate by not being extravagant with the fitout.

I also recall reading that there was an outcry not too long ago when the carpets and/or seat coverings were being replaced with more expensive fabric.

Perhaps the Press and new Labour Govt both have vested interests in wanting bigger aircraft so they can be in each other's pockets on long overseas trips - something akin to the former Liberal Government when the B707s were still in VIP use.

So why not keep the BBJs and Challengers for the regular Pollie/ADF shuttles between the various cities and military bases and lease a couple of extra A330s or B787 Business Jets dedicated to Prime Ministerial use on overseas tours ?

.

[Kent Broadhead]

But we've got the Challengers for the shuttle haven't we.

It still amazes me the politicking around Government aircraft - and continuing to refer to them as VIP just compounds things.

The reality is that we're located at the a**e-end of the earth and proper transport to the rest of the world is an important part of our interaction with it.

I agree, linking A330s onto the MRTT deal seems sensible....

kent

[Brenden S]

There is a shower on the aircraft, which the potable water is greater than the small waste tanks that are on board. Ie you have a shower you fill up the waste tanks..... There are 4 large seats which dont even lay flat for the PM or GG. Then there is large economy seats down the back for the plebs and engineers. Its not to bad inside but some of the other Bizjets that I managed to look at when I was at Sydney blew our BBJ away.

[Bob C]

Hi Kent

I believe that the RAAF BBJs operate regular shuttles between RAAF bases and they are also frequent visitors to Perth. I presume the majority of their visits are with WA politicians coming home for weekend breaks, holidays etc.

[David N]

I've never seen inside a RAAF BBJ but believe it to be austere and functional, nothing like the photos we see of BBJs in private use tours ?

There are 4 large seats which dont even lay flat for the PM or GG. Then there is large economy seats down the back for the plebs and engineers. .

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj227/Impulse100/RAAF2.jpg

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj227/Impulse100/RAAF.jpg

[Ray P.]

...If this was the case, why would the RAAF have recommended the A319CJ ?...

The DMO Project Office probably recommended the A319CJ based on requirements given to them by the stakeholders and regulatory authorities as well as numerous other constraints that noone ever hears about when questioning acquisitions.

...So why not keep the BBJs and Challengers for the regular Pollie/ADF shuttles between the various cities and military bases and lease a couple of extra A330s or B787 Business Jets dedicated to Prime Ministerial use on overseas tours ?.

This sounds quite feasible, but it depends on how much overseas travel is anticipated. Obviously there is a balance between the requirements and the cost. Perhaps they just lease a QF plane as required. Nonetheless, if Angus Houston says we need it...that's good enough for me. He is one dedicated and very switched on individual.

[Kent Broadhead]

Hi Kent

I believe that the RAAF BBJs operate regular shuttles between RAAF bases and they are also frequent visitors to Perth. I presume the majority of their visits are with WA politicians coming home for weekend breaks, holidays etc.

Sorry, forgot the smilie in my original message....:)

In this day and age, the planes are pretty much essential I reckon....how about an ex-QF 743?


:D

Kent

[Jed W]

how about an ex-QF 743?

Not really an option in my opinion. If the ADF do it, I think they should do it right. ie: an A330/787.

[Rhys Xanthis]

Yeh they should just do it properly. Keep the BBJ's for domestic, A332/333/787 for international visits.

However, leasing a QF plane wouldn't be *all* that bad, although i expect QF would rather have the planes to themselves...

[damien b]

The BBJ and 604's are leased from Qantas i believe, and serviced by Qantas Defence Services Special Purpose Aircraft Business Unit which really manages the fleet for the RAAF.

If another aircraft was to be operated, logically as already mentioned either the A330 or another suitable QF operated aircraft would be the ideal candidate.

[Bob C]

Surely you can't be serious Kent.

The QF B747-300s are dreadfully unreliable at present and have given untold grief to thousands of long suffering passengers to and from Perth for over 12 months. Hardly a day goes by without lengthy delays or cancellations.

On Monday my wife was returning to Perth from Sydney and the 747 due to fly QF575 went unserviceable. Luckily QF was able to substitute an A330-300which was arriving from Shanghai so she finally got away after a 2 hour delay. This follows a 90 minute delay on the PER-SYD leg last Monday week.

And friends of ours who travelled to Melbourne a few weeks ago endured 3 and 4 hour delays on both legs.

There are countless other incidents that could be mentioned also.

The B747-300s must be nearing the end of their lives and will be replaced later in the year. They're probably only good for scrap and parts now and I think QF will be glad to see the end of them.

[Rhys Xanthis]

I think QF will be glad to see the end of them.

The delays are frustrating, especially for us in Perth who fly on them:p

They will be most glad to see the back of them, especially considering the current fuel prices. Im not sure the RAAF/G'ment would want them with fuel prices the way even! (not taking into account their lives are nearing end).

I just wonder if politics could get in the way of a decision...most likely will.

[Bob C]

What are you saying Rhys - that clapped out, unreliable ex QF B747-300s will be foisted on to the RAAF who will then use them as VIP aircraft to fly the PM and others overseas ?

I very much doubt that the Government would do that to itself - it might as well shoot itself in the foot !

If it did happen, I'd change allegiance and barrack for the Dockers instead of the Demons !!!!

And to be perfectly honest, I'm at the point where I would avoid booking a 747 flight and would rather go via Adelaide to the Eastern states or pick a flight that had other equipment or use Virgin.

[Kent Broadhead]

Surely you can't be serious Kent.

Hence the big grin at the end of the statement.....

Kent

PS. Mind you, where did the 707s come from? :o

[Rhys Xanthis]

What are you saying Rhys - that clapped out, unreliable ex QF B747-300s will be foisted on to the RAAF who will then use them as VIP aircraft to fly the PM and others overseas ?

I very much doubt that the Government would do that to itself - it might as well shoot itself in the foot !

If it did happen, I'd change allegiance and barrack for the Dockers instead of the Demons !!!!

And to be perfectly honest, I'm at the point where I would avoid booking a 747 flight and would rather go via Adelaide to the Eastern states or pick a flight that had other equipment or use Virgin.

no, i said they wont take them.

and im the same...i just cant avoid flying on the 747's though..

[Bob C]

"......I just wonder if politics could get in the way of a decision...most likely will...."

I read that sentence as meaning that if the B743s were offered then the Government would pressure the RAAF to take them (God knows why !)

The B743s must all be around the 60/80,000 hours mark and the domestic schedules would have greatly increased their expected number of cycles. Even more reason for the Government to not even think about them.

[Rhys Xanthis]

"......I just wonder if politics could get in the way of a decision...most likely will...."

I read that sentence as meaning that if the B743s were offered then the Government would pressure the RAAF to take them (God knows why !)

The B743s must all be around the 60/80,000 hours mark and the domestic schedules would have greatly increased their expected number of cycles. Even more reason for the Government to not even think about them.

okay, i meant that politics would get in the way of purchasing a new aircraft for government use.

i do NOT think the ogvernemnt should purchase ex-qf 743...

[damien b]

Hence the big grin at the end of the statement.....

Kent

PS. Mind you, where did the 707s come from? :o

Qantas and Saudia Arabia - and in pretty good condition as well as they were relatively young and replaced by 747's in both cases i believe.

[Chris Griffiths]

I recall reading that some (perhaps all) the KC-30B would be configured with a number of "business" class seats and the remainder "economy" class seating.
This raises a couple of questions,
1/ If the requirement is there it makes for an easy decision to add to the KC-30B fleet, suiting both the ADF airlift folks and the politicos
2/ If the political situation dictates it allows the pollies to fly in a nice new widebody without actually buying one... just use a KC-30B(and degrade the ADF airlift capability) but claim the moral high ground by using "existing resources"

Cheers

[Joseph Saragozza.]

great pics.
are there any more.
or any for the 604?

[Bill S]

I'm quietly having a laugh at the people with NFI how an airliner is maintained are complaining about the QF 747-300's.
They aren't cars, where they older they get the more tired they get - every part has a life to it, and when it gets to its expiry date it's replaced.
A well-maintained airliner should be very nearly as reliable as a new one, and indeed since they are guaranteed to perform to near-new standars throughout their entire life this means they should be maintained to that standard.
I've flown an ex-JAL 747-146 with 115,000 hours on it and it was one of the best 747's I've ever been on. All the gear was still working well and it felt nice & tight. I've also flown 80,000 hour 747-236's with lower maintenance standards (They let things slide to the limit, etc) and they have been quite unreliable. One of the problems these 747's had was that they had little time on the ground for all the work to be done, so things just didn't get done as well as what they should have. Also the maintenance crew didn't have the extensive background that they really should have to look after the planes.

So anyway, all this talk of the 'old -300's being unreliable' is uninformed dross sorry. Look after them and they will be very nearly as good as a new airliner.

[Andrew M]

So anyway, all this talk of the 'old -300's being unreliable' is uninformed dross sorry.

The current Qantas 743's ARE unreliable, end of story



Look after them and they will be very nearly as good as a new airliner.


Yes, but they are not being looked after, hence the unreliable part

[NickN]

Andrew,

Bill was saying that IF they ARE looked after, they should perform as reliably and as well as a new aircraft, obviously he was eluding to the fact that these Qantas jets are not by saying they never spend long enough on the ground to have the work carried out as well as it should be.

[Andrew M]

I should hope so :p if the Bill S that posted is the Bill S I am thinking of.

I am sure he knows me in that area :D