MH370 - Missing

[Grant G]

Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014).

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014. MH370 was expected to land in Beijing at 6.30am the same day. The flight was carrying a total number of 227 passengers (including 2 infants)..., 12 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. Meanwhile, the public may contact +603 7884 1234 for further info.

[Grahame Hutchison]

FlightAware only showing the aircraft tracking out to the northeast across the Malay Peninsula. The statement on the Mayalsian Facebook page was made at 0724 MYT, which is an hour and a half after the aircraft should have landed in Beijing.

http://www.16right.com/MessageBoard/MH370 20140309 A.jpg

[Radi K]

Aircraft is 9M-MRO

Three screen grabs from FR24 -

1. The same aircraft operating the same flight 24 hours before, shown in the cruise FL370 all the way to Vietnam.
http://s29.postimg.org/m20uzl4zb/MAS3.png

2. The aircraft last night in cruise at FL350, then it just drops to 0 feet just off the coast.
http://s11.postimg.org/ntwl8v9cz/MAS1.png
http://s30.postimg.org/9avvkk29d/MAS2.png

Two things in the MAS statement contradict each other.

"lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am"

By 2.40 am the aircraft would have been 2 hours into flight and well north of Malaysian airspace (which ends close to where the aircraft looks to have gone down)

[Michael Cleary]

And FR24 says that it has 'arrived' in Beijing!!!

Sad news. 2 hours out would have it close to the Vietnam coast I would think.

[Grahame Hutchison]

FlightAware log ..

http://www.16right.com/MessageBoard/MH370 20140309 B.jpg

[Todd Hendry]

http://malaysiandigest.com/frontpage/282-main-tile/492200-mas-kl-beijing-flight-missing.html


Here's hoping.

[Nigel C]

Reports are that 7 Australians and 2 New Zealanders are amongst the pax list

[Greg Hyde]

Latest, doesn't look good.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/australians-among-239-people-on-board-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-to-beijing/story-fnizu68q-1226848860442

S&R have been activated

[Montague S]

http://www.china.org.cn/world/2014-03/08/content_31714878.htm

Signal from a/c has been detected.

[Greg Hyde]

If this aircraft is lost it would be the 3rd B777 loss and 1st B777 in-flight loss with:

1. BA landed short at Heathrow due to fuel starvation
2. HL landed short SFO due to flight crew issues

[Bob C]

Hi Greg

9M-MRO will be the fourth hull B777 hull loss after BA, Asiana and

Egyptair SU-GBP B777-266ER c/n 28423 l/n 0071 FF 05/05/97 DD
23/05/97 written off on 29 Jul 2011 at Cairo airport after a cockpit fire on
the ground.

Cheers

Bob

[Greg Hyde]

ABCNews24 is currently running live reports.

ABC site has a live blog with updates:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-08/live-blog-malaysia-airlines-flight-missing/5308006

[Greg Hyde]

Thanks, Bob

Still seems to be the 1st B777 in-flight loss

[Grahame Hutchison]

9M-MRO B7772H6ER (C/n 28420 L/n 404) Hex 75008F Rolls Royce Trent 800 Delivered 31/05/2002

9/08/2012 Aviation Safety Network : A taxiing Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 passenger plane (9M-MRO),
flight MH389, contaced the tail of a China Eastern Airlines A340 plane, B-6050, waiting on the
taxiway at Pudong International Airport.No one was injured.

By Justin Dear and (AFP)
Kuala Lumpur — 06:26 GMT - Ships sent - Faridah Shuib, a spokeswoman for the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency says Malaysian authorities have dispatched a plane, two helicopters and four vessels to search seas off its east coast in the South China Sea.
The Philippines says it is sending three navy patrol boats and a surveillance plane to help efforts.

05:49 GMT - Search area - The important thing now for officials is to locate exactly where the plane may have gone down to narrow the search area.
The Vietnamese government on its website has already said the plane lost contact in Ca Mau province airspace before it had entered contact with Ho Chi Minh City air traffic control.


http://www.jetphotos.net/img/4/0/0/8/55744_1389609800_tb.jpg (http://images2.jetphotos.net/img/4/0/0/8/55744_1389609800.jpg)
9M-MRO departing Amsterdam
Schiphol Airport 12/01/2014
Photographer Freek Blokzijl

[Michael Cleary]

Still nothing found.

According to :

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-mas-goes-all-out-to-locate-missing-plane-1.502767

"MAS' Executive, Media Relations and Strategic Communications Malini Saudranrajan said the last known position of the aircraft was 065515 North (longitude) and 1033443 East (latitude)".

Which is much closer to the Malaysian Coast than to Vietnam.

You have to wonder though, it was supposed to be about 2 hours out of KLIA and that location would be less than 1 hour out. Seems to be lots of confusion as to just where and when it was last reported at.

[Greg Hyde]

More regarding search efforts:

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-massive-search-off-south-vietnam-coast-1.502464

Go to the bottom of the story and click on page 2.

Note: The different locations, Sth China Sea or Gulf of Thailand.

[Montague S]

quite concerning to know that two of the passengers on the plane were traveling on stolen passports..The Austrian & Italian were actually never on the flight.

[Grahame Hutchison]

From Google News ...


Vietnamese air force planes have spotted two large oil slicks off the southern tip of Vietnam which may be from a missing Malaysian jetliner that was carrying 239 people, including six Australians.

The discovery of the slicks provided the first clue in the disappearance of Flight 370, a Boeing Co. 777-200 that was an hour into a flight from Kuala Lumpur yesterday. Twin sheens of oil spread as long as 15 kilometers south of Vietnam's Tho Chu island, the country's government said.


Disappointing that it has taken so long to locate the aircraft in this busy airspace.

Malaysia are best equipped to support the sea search, with 12 EC725s helicopters, having a 723nm range and just over 6 hours endurance. They also have C-130 aircraft employed in the search, however it will take some time to deploy these assets to the search area.

Vietnam only has one Antonov An-28 and four Beriev Be-12 seaplanes.


Two passengers travelling on stolen passports could suggest a hijacking, although physical security at the airport, and on the aircraft, should make this difficult. There have been no confirmed reports of the aircraft landing at any other airport. The recent hijacking of an Ethiopian B767 was by the co-pilot, not a passenger.


Previous wing tip damage from an accident back in 2012 should not be related.


Fuel system icing issues with the B777 Trent 800 powerplants, similar to the British Airways accident back in 2008, is a potential cause, although Rolls Royce developed a fix to prevent the problem recurring.

[Philip Argy]

The two travelling on false passports, combined with the FR plot showing that although altitude reduced to zero, speed remained almost constant, does make this disappearance a little more troubling at this early stage.

But analogies with AF447 are also there. Will be interesting to see what telemetry was sent in the moments before the a/c disappeared.

[Laurent Sanhard]

you would think that if someone's passport was stolen last year then this would alert passport controls in all countries to be extra vigilant when a passenger shows up with that passport , also the passport number should show up as stolen once scanned . And once the genuine owner of the passport has their passport re-issued they would need to provide additional proof of id each time checking in and going through security if needed ,
An italian and an Austrian both had their passports stolen while in Thailand last year ? ( according to BBC ) sounds a bit odd , I travelled through Thailand / Singapore and Malaysia last year , and in my opinion the only weak link was thailand .... Singapore and Malaysia are very strict with passport controls and its hard to believe in this day and age that people still get away with travelling on false passports . if that is indeed what has happened :confused:

[Philip Argy]

Ostensibly on the grounds that US citizens were on the aircraft, but I'm not sure the FBI gets involved as a matter of course ... :confused:

[Greg Hyde]

Crickey Update:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/03/08/malaysia-airlines-777-200-has-crashed-location-imprecise/

Looks like an AF447 scenario.

Does the B777 has telemetry output similar to the A330/380 etc.

[Philip Argy]

As with AF447, the ACARS telemetry could give us vital clues. Maybe MAS doesn't want to share it at this stage ... ?

[David Knudsen]

A couple of ways it's different to AF447 - no reports of significant weather in the area, a very experienced crew at the controls (presumably) and no reports of telemetry (which was revealed hours after AF447 was confirmed missing).

The other thing I find bizarre is that despite good ADS and ATC radar coverage (reportedly) there have only been unconfirmed reports of a rapid descent - you'd think even from 35,000ft if the aircraft was falling in a single piece they would have had a couple of radar returns in that time?

Thankfully the Gulf of Thailand is relatively shallow so it should make recovery of the wreckage somewhat easier than AF447.

[Mark Grima]

Ostensibly on the grounds that US citizens were on the aircraft, but I'm not sure the FBI gets involved as a matter of course ... :confused:

I'd imagine they would need an invite from the lead nation, who ever that may end up being. I can't imagine there is an jurisdictional nexus that allows the FBI to get involved simply because Americans were on board.

Cheers

M

[Steve S... 2]

There could not have been any fuel issues with the aircraft, as it would have flown for quite some time regardless, and communications would have been received from the pilot.

Something sudden and catastrophic has happened which prevented time for any communications from the pilots.

Something else to be considered would be the aircraft having been overpowered, and flown into the sea intentionally, also explaining the no communications.

We will find out...

[Greg Hyde]

Why didn't Vietnam/Chinese ATC raise an alert when the aircraft:

* failed to report at way points
* could no longer be seen on radar

[Arthur T]

My thoughts are to the victims and families.

Just wondering in today's technology, wouldn't we should be able to find the black box signal as it will emit wavebands to allow search authorities to locate the plane?

The depth of either Gulf of Thailand or South China Sea should not be too deep than an ocean that it should facilitate the search easily.

Thoughts?

Replying to one of the possible thoughts on the cause, could the plane suffered something similar but more violent explosion than QF30 that potentially destroys the black box and disintegration of the plane?

[Ash W]

Just wondering in today's technology, wouldn't we should be able to find the black box signal as it will emit wavebands to allow search authorities to locate the plane?

They do, but you need to be reasonably close to start with.

[Grahame Hutchison]

Boeing Technical Advisors and NTSB investigators are on their way to the area, so they will be ready to assist once the location of the aircraft has been established.

[Philip Argy]

Would pitot freezing explain altitude going from 37,000 to 0 with no speed reduction? It seems more likely than controlled flight into the sea? Or perhaps there were fumes of some kind and the crew were overcome? Or an undetected hypoxia event?

The lack of flotsam and jetsam suggests (to me anyway) that the a/c did not disintegrate at high altitude and is more likely to have hit in one piece, similar to AF447. Wing separation pre-impact might explain distance between fuel slick locations.

Also now seems that contact was lost only 40 minutes out of KL but MAS was not told because no one wanted to raise a false alarm until all equipment malfunction explanations had been eliminated. I'd have thought immediate contact with MAS should have occurred so they could at least try ACARS or other alternative means of contact.

Really just curiouser and curiouser ... :confused:

[steve k]

Sadly I think this may be a case of "Crew Misadventure" I have the gut feeling it is, but I am no expert on these matters, what saddens me is I have catered that and 16 other Malaysia 777.200's and crews generally were really nice, perhaps I met the pilots at some stage in 3.5 years here in Adelaide. I do hope the aircraft is found to bring closure to the grieving families. Tragic start to 2014 after really low fatality rates in aviation.

[Henning S]

I think the final altitude of 0ft on FR24 is not correct. It means the aircraft would have had to transmit this altitude and an ADS-B receiver would have had to receive it. But as you know the distance over which ADS-B signals can be received depend on line-of-sight connection and at 0ft this line of sight is not really long.
If this incident was similar to AF447 and the plane would have dropped, it would still have transmitted ADS-B messages that show a change in speed or altitude. So this seems very unlikely to me.
The only two reasons I can think of that cause a plane to not transmit any more signals are that the transponder has been switched off intentionally or an explosion that destroyed at least the transponder and maybe the entire plane.

The latest reports that the aircraft might have turned after it stopped reporting its position may indicate an intentionally switched off transponder, maybe by a hijacker.

[Montague S]

How on earth would a hijacker even get into the flight deck? The plane was aloft not more than an hour, and the pilots would've been able to communicate the situation if someone was trying to access the flight deck. I don't know, but terrorism by entering the flight deck doesn't seem plausible unless it was carried out by the flight crew itself.

[Nigel C]

What surprises me is that no wreckage has been located. No lifejackets, no baggage, no aircraft bits, nothing but an oil slick. If the aircraft was flown into the water, or it disintegrated above the water, then surely there should be more than just an oil slick as evidence?

And surely there were fishing vessels out that night that might have seen or heard something? Weather reports suggested that conditions were pretty good. A B777 is hardly a small thing to hide!!!

But we can speculate all we like, even hypothesise til the cows come home if it makes us all feel better. They'll find it sooner or later, and then we'll get the real answers we're all looking for.

[Henning S]

Montague S, I totally agree with you.
So the only options are that one of the people on the flight deck actually switched the transponder of to hijack the plane (like it recently happend).
Or there was an explosion. This might have been either a terrorist attack or some non-terrorist reason.

[Henning S]

What surprises me is that no wreckage has been located. No lifejackets, no baggage, no aircraft bits, nothing but an oil slick. If the aircraft was flown into the water, or it disintegrated above the water, then surely there should be more than just an oil slick as evidence?

And surely there were fishing vessels out that night that might have seen or heard something? Weather reports suggested that conditions were pretty good. A B777 is hardly a small thing to hide!!!



Yes, that surprises me as well. If there was an explosion then there would have to be a lot of things floating around in the ocean.

Any other ideas why the transponder could have stopped transmitting?

The more you try to explain the disappearence of this flight the more mysterious it becomes.

[Henning S]

BBC just wrote that the tickets that were purchased using the stolen passports were booked at the same time.

"The BBC has confirmed that a man falsely using an Italian passport and a man falsely using an Austrian passport purchased tickets at the same time, and were both booked on the same onward flight from Beijing to Europe on Saturday.

Both had purchased their tickets from China Southern Airlines, which shared the flight with Malaysia Airlines, and they had consecutive ticket numbers."

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26502843

[Adam P.]

Why didn't Vietnam/Chinese ATC raise an alert when the aircraft:

* failed to report at way points
* could no longer be seen on radar

How do you know they didn't?

[Grahame Hutchison]

Interesting development with the two passengers travelling on false passports. Why would they book on the same flight to Europe on Saturday, if they intended to hijack or destroy the aircraft. Maybe this is just illegal use of passports, and unrelated to the accident.

[Tamara S]

Being purchased at the same time
Ticket numbers being in sequence

I think this is more than just using illegal passports to get somewhere.

There saying it could be timed to fit with the opening of parliment.

Take a look at www.marinetraffic.com quite a few ships out looking.

[Nigel C]

Booking an ongoing flight lowers any suspicion for terror related activity I'm guessing. Besides, if they were planning on destroying the Malaysian flight, missing their connecting flight is hardly a concern for them....

But, it's all speculation. The whole story will come out eventually.

[Tamara S]

China may have been the target, to connect with the stabbings at the airport

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/travel/travel-news/malaysia-airlines-flight-missing-passengers-under-investigation-australians-among-239-feared-dead/story-fnjjv9zn-1226849508778

[Henning S]

More interesting news:
"Investigators have made contact with a missing Chinese passenger's mobile phone, state media reports.

Chinese television stations say that a call made by family members DID connect to a mobile number but then cut out.

It is now hoped officials can use the mobile phone signal of passengers to locate the missing plane."

Source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-live-3219331

[Ian Garton]

The onward leg may have been to avoid obtaining a visa for China prior to departure from KUL.

[Tamara S]

RAAF C130 will be leaving Darwin for the search area within the hour.

[Peter JB]

Or you mean a P3C Orion? Abbott has despatched 2 Orions from Darwin.

[Tamara S]

arrrr might be them

[Tamara S]

ABC & 7 are reporting search aircraft have spotted debris in the Gulf of Thailand.

The showed a photo, but was only a few pieces so may not even belong to the plane.

[Tamara S]

Vietnam's navy has spotted a floating object about 80 kilometers (50 miles) southwest of Vietnam's Tho Chu Island, which is located off the country's southwest coast in the Gulf of Thailand.

Vietnam National Search and Rescue Committee Spokesman Hung Nguyen told CNN. The object was spotted by a Vietnamese navy rescue aircraft at about 7:30 a.m. ET Sunday (6:30 p.m. local time).

Due to the dark, the navy aircraft could not get close enough to identify the floating object, and was recalled to base. Three search and rescue boats have since been deployed to that location.

More details: http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

[Tamara S]

Possible part of the tail and cabin door spotted

[Tamara S]

More I look at this image looks to be maybe an overwing exit door ?

[Ian Garton]

Doesn't the 772 have all full size doors, and no overwing exits?
Also the size and position of the window doesn't look correct for a door.

[Tamara S]

You are correct... looking at the doors on the 200 the window on the door has a different posistion to the one in the possible debrie photo.

I just dont get there is only a tiny piece and nothing more, you would think there would be more debris.

Some media outlets are reporting a piece of the tail has been found but no photos

[Philip Argy]

There are some configurations of ocean impact that leave the fuselage relatively intact ...

[Tamara S]

Malaysian authorities are saying the debris is not from the missing plane but will be fished out for proper id.

Read the caption below the debris photo at the following link.

http://mobile.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/malaysia-airlines-plane-missing-search-fails-to-turn-up-any-confirmed-wreckage-or-clues-two-days-after-it-vanished/story-fnizu68q-1226849877056

[Philip Argy]

These facts about two supposedly unrelated travellers cannot just be serendipitously connected with the disappearance of flight MH370:


Flight booking information shows the passengers bought the tickets together at a travel agency in Pattaya, a seaside city outside Bangkok that is a known haunt of international criminal networks.
They booked the flight to Beijing where they would not have had to clear customs before taking another flight from Beijing to Amsterdam.
One, travelling under Maraldi’s name, was due to proceed to Copenhagen and the other to Frankfurt, Germany.

http://images.smh.com.au/2014/03/10/5247086/1394415488077.jpg-300x0.jpg Tickets bought by two passengers using false passports in the names of Christian Kozel and Luigi Maraldi. Photo: Supplied

The men paid for the fares in Thai baht.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/fake-passports-on-malaysia-airlines-flight-reveal-flaw-in-airline-safety-20140310-hvgv0.html#ixzz2vWLpVUdd

[Tamara S]

ABC24 just showed the live media conference from Malaysian authorities and they have said all reports of debries are false and as of now

NO PART OF THE AIRCRAFT HAS BEEN FOUND AND THE AIRCRAFT REMAINS MISSING

[Laurent Sanhard]

sounds like a silly question, but what if the transponder was shut off in the cockpit , is it possible the aircraft would have been forced to land in another country ie Russia or somewhere remote , surely if it crashed into the ocean , another plane or boat would have reported seeing a fire , surely some debris would have floated to the surface by now ,
did the aircraft disappear from Radar ?? would it still show up on Radar if the transponder was turned off ??

[Greg Hyde]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-10/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-what-we-know/5309688

Factual update from ABC

[Ash W]

Yes it would still show up on radar. All the transponder does is identifies the a/c.

[Henning S]

sounds like a silly question, but what if the transponder was shut off in the cockpit , is it possible the aircraft would have been forced to land in another country ie Russia or somewhere remote , surely if it crashed into the ocean , another plane or boat would have reported seeing a fire , surely some debris would have floated to the surface by now ,
did the aircraft disappear from Radar ?? would it still show up on Radar if the transponder was turned off ??

The aircraft would still appear on the radar but it would not send out its identification anymore. So on the radar it would not appear with its flight number but simply as a dot or something like that.
What it disappears from are radar websites like FlightRadar24 because these websites are not showing real radar information but ADS-B signals. These signals are actively transmitted by the plane if the plane's transponder is on. If the transponder is switched off, the plane doesn't transmit the ADS-B signal anymore.

[Hugh Jarse]

Yes it would still show up on radar. All the transponder does is identifies the a/c.

No, it would not - unless there is a primary radar covering the area the aircraft was in, and even then it may not show up on a controller's display. There are many factors affecting the usefulness of primary radar, such as range limitations, rain attenuation or obstacles in view of the antenna, which is why it has limited use today.

Hence the reason we have SSR and ADSB today. Primary radar had too many limitations :)

[Laurent Sanhard]

still remains a mystery then ?? news now reports of 5 pax that checked in but did not board the flight , at the very least it raises serious security concerns at KL airport !

[Arthur T]

Warning: Prior reading to the following post, please note all accurate inforamtion relating to MH370 incident must refer to official statements from Governments & the Airline

According to Oriential Daily Hong Kong

http://hk.on.cc/int/bkn/cnt/news/20140310/bknint-20140310130125300-0310_17011_001.html

(If you cannot read Chinese, please use Google translate thank you)
(The picture is included in the news report when you click on the link)

there is a photo being circulated over the internet regards to the wrackage of the plane. This perhaps why ABC reported earlier.

However please note from the photo itself it looks like the plane has winglets attached at the end of the "wing". We all know all B777s, including B777-8X and B777-9X do not have winglets so I highly doubt the accuracy of that post.

[Alex T]

However please note from the photo itself it looks like the plane has winglets attached at the end of the "wing". We all know all B777s, including B777-8X and B777-9X do not have winglets so I highly [b]doubt the accuracy of that post.

I believe the photo is the Lion Air overrun at Denpasar last year! - http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20130415&t=2&i=722331298&w=580&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=CDEE93E0BFK00

[Arthur T]

Thanks mate. That confirms my view that this is not accurate. I think we should notify the newspaper to deal with the photo. Clearly not cool for people to send these false stuff around.

[damien b]

Lots and lots of speculation on what appears to be a horrific event. The release of information on damage that was repaired by Boeing to a wing tip I guess adds to the speculation.

The lack of debris, no claims by terrorist cells of destroying MH370, no mayday calls, no transmission of emergency beacons all adds to the mystery.

Personally, structural failure or in-flight explosion are most likely but until investigators get to the FDR and CVR, we will never know.

[Thomas Collins]

Where are the "pings" from the FDR, CVR and ELT…

[Tamara S]

Wondering the very same thing, you think the ELT would have gone off.

You have to wonder.... has this a/c been hijacked and flown somewhere and is sitting on some dustry runway with a plane load of pax?

I need to get the Jepps out and see where I could get with the fuel.

[Tamara S]

another live news conference, authorities are saying there are reports a life raft has been spotted and there sending ships to the location now.

[Ash W]

No, it would not - unless there is a primary radar covering the area the aircraft was in, and even then it may not show up on a controller's display. There are many factors affecting the usefulness of primary radar, such as range limitations, rain attenuation or obstacles in view of the antenna, which is why it has limited use today.

Hence the reason we have SSR and ADSB today. Primary radar had too many limitations :)

I think you have contradicted my answer and made a simple question over complicated for no real reason.

Whilst what you say is 100% right, radar does of have limitations and of course you need to have radar in the right areas, the question was rather simple, as too my answer.

So the simple answer to the question that was asked, is yes.

[Michael Cleary]

Although I doubt it in this age of Radar Surveillance, etc, the thought of Hypoxia does come up - and there is maybe wreckage in the icy wastes of Siberia.

As I said, I doubt it. Whilst there might be some black holes in radar coverage around Indo-China, I cannot imagine any Aircraft entering Chinese Airspace, Transponder on or not, and not being detected.

But if nothing is found in the Gulf of Thailand, they need to look farther afield - up to whatever distance the fuel on board would allow.

[Tamara S]

Malaysian transport minister says Vietinam helicopters have been dispatched to a floating yellow object that is a possible life raft that matches the color of the one installed in the missing aircraft, came direct from him few moments ago.

[Hugh Jarse]

With respect, Ash - your answer was not accurate. If a transponder is switched off (or fails) then in 100% of cases the aircraft data label will definitely be lost on the controller's display. Modern ATC radar centres do not display primary paints on controller's displays, either because that data is not available, or to display it would clutter their displays (or both).

Sure, the world's military would maintain some level of primary-only radar coverage for identifying unidentified intruders, but that's not we're discussing here.

The whole reason primary radar is all but redundant is that there are so many limitations with it, as I explained in my previous post.

I thought my original answer was reasonably simple :) To make a blanket statement that the aircraft would still be showing on radar is generally incorrect in a modern civil ATC environment. That's why contact was lost in the first place :) Rescue services would have a more precise estimate of where the aircraft is, if your original statement were accurate.

[Mark Howarth]

Tamara,

Do you have a a link to the source for this info? Its not appearing on any of the news websites.

[Tamara S]

Tamara,

Do you have a a link to the source for this info? Its not appearing on any of the news websites.

The minister said it at the latest press conference shown on news 24, however the part about being the same color fitted to the aircraft was on radio so not sure how accurate that part is.


http://m.heraldsun.com.au/news/malaysia-airlines-plane-missing-desperate-search-for-wreckage-and-clues-two-days-after-it-vanished/story-fni0fiyv-1226849856500

http://mobile.news.com.au/

[Tamara S]

Turns out not to be a life raft
http://news.yahoo.com/vietnam-rescuers-retrieve-floating-object-not-plane-life-090710242--sector.html

[Steve C]

I'm confused. I use planefinder.net, it shows MAS370 disappearing over Malaysia, not the ocean, about 0103.

I don't know how to get flightaware to show historic data.

[Henning S]

German media just reports that the lab results of the examination of the oil that had been spotted in the area where the flight disappeared clearly show that the oil is not from the plane.

Source: Bild Zeitung, Germany (link not provided as the text is in German)

Also one of the suspects that used a stolen passport has been identified but they won't tell of which nationality he is. They only said that he is neither Malaysian nor from the province of XinJiang, China.

Source: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/03/10/Missing-MH370-one-suspect-passport-identified/

[Paul S.]

Interested to know more about the 5 fail to boards. They mustn't have come from a connecting flight as reports say their baggage had to be off loaded, so I assume they checked in at KL as I cant imagine the bags getting there before the pax.

[David Knudsen]

avherald (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0) added this information recently;

Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an airliner enroute on airway L642 reported via HF radio that they saw a large field of debris at position N9.72 E107.42 about 80nm southeast of Ho Chi Minh City, about 50nm off the south-eastern coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea and about 281nm northeast of the last known radar position. Ships have been dispatched to the reported debris field.

[Michael Cleary]

Interested to know more about the 5 fail to boards. They mustn't have come from a connecting flight as reports say their baggage had to be off loaded, so I assume they checked in at KL as I cant imagine the bags getting there before the pax.

I missed a connecting flight once - by about a minute (missed the 10min gate closure) - and actually saw my bag extracted from the hold while I was waiting.

[Greg Hyde]

Thomas,

Pingers only transmit on a limited range.

Once the aircraft is found the pingers are then used to locate the boxes.

Unfortunately it's a small fish in a big ocean until some trace is found.

[Justin L]

Please excuse my ignorance, but of the theories that one of the reasons debris may not have (yet) been found is due to disintegration in the air caused by catastrophic explosion, I have these questions:

1. What would cause an explosion so powerful that complete disintegration would occur and leave no debris, even small parts of the plane flung far and wide?
2. Why would such an explosion at night not be seen by those on the ground or other intra-Asia redeye flights flying at similar altitude on a clear night?
3. Etc.

[Ash W]

With respect, Ash - your answer was not accurate. If a transponder is switched off (or fails) then in 100% of cases the aircraft data label will definitely be lost on the controller's display. Modern ATC radar centres do not display primary paints on controller's displays, either because that data is not available, or to display it would clutter their displays (or both).

Sure, the world's military would maintain some level of primary-only radar coverage for identifying unidentified intruders, but that's not we're discussing here.

The whole reason primary radar is all but redundant is that there are so many limitations with it, as I explained in my previous post.

I thought my original answer was reasonably simple :) To make a blanket statement that the aircraft would still be showing on radar is generally incorrect in a modern civil ATC environment. That's why contact was lost in the first place :) Rescue services would have a more precise estimate of where the aircraft is, if your original statement were accurate.

With respect my answer was to post 59. Laurent was asking if it were possible to turn the transponder off and then fly somewhere else undetected.

Again whilst what you say is indeed 100% correct, my response, is also right, especially the context of the post I was replying to.

Now I am sure you will agree if an aircraft were have done was Laurent was suggesting then somewhere along the line it would be detected by radar and being unidentified suspicions would be aroused. Sadly other than a crash there is no way for an airliner to just disappear like it has done.

So the answer to Laurent again is yes an aircraft with a transponder turned off will still be detected by radar, but add all of Hugh's caveats.

[Tamara S]

Terror group Chinese Martyrs Brigade claim missing flight was ‘payback’, officials label it hoax


http://mobile.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/terror-group-chinese-martyrs-brigade-claim-missing-flight-was-payback-officials-label-it-hoax/story-fnizu68q-1226851032980


On another note they are sending ships to the debris field spotted by a Cathay crew, crikey 250nm from the last position...

[Nigel C]

You too can help look for the missing aircraft....

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/crowdsourcing-the-search-for-malaysia-flight-370/

An American company has set up a web site to enable users to scour the area where MH370 is believed to have gone down using imagery from 5 satellites. Web site below:
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014?source=abc

[Henning S]

That's awesome. I'm already checking the first images.

[Tamara S]

cctv footage of pilot and first officer going through security

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE4MbiIGdZ4

[David N]

I don't understand how an aircraft (At altitude or not) does not leave debris on the water if it exploded in flight.
IMO it would had left less clue if it went in whole, happy to be corrected

[Laurent Sanhard]

if no debris has been found by the end of the week , might it be possible that the aircraft managed to land on water ( like the Hudson A320 ) although at night highly impossible to land on water without breaking up the aircraft ,
if it did land on water in one piece would it sink to the bottom or float ??

[Paul S.]

Have none of you see airport 77 the movie!

[NathanJ]

All this speculation and constant hunger for answers. It's clear that all possibilities are not being considered. Extraterrestrial's are no doubt responsible for the disappearance into "thin air". Unfortunately this scenario is light years away from human compression so the same tried and failed techniques of search and rescue are and will continue to fail as we will all sit here with blank faces and question marks hovering over our heads... ;)

[Tamara S]

You would think life rafts would be deployed and some pax floating with life jackets.

On another note, Malaysian authorities just held a press conference and ruled out the pax on the false passports and confirmed that they are asylum seekers.

So back to aircraft failure and non boarding pax, surely they can track down the pax and interview them.

I still have a gut feeling its in a hanger somewhere.....

[Tamara S]

in addition to the mobile phones connecting there now sayimg its showing them online in online chat

http://mobile.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/were-phantom-calls-made-by-relatives-to-missing-passengers-phones-just-a-cruel-hoax/story-fnizu68q-1226851166744

[Ash W]

As anyone who has travelled overseas knows it is quite common for someone to call you whilst roaming and hear ring tone, despite your phone being off or out of range.

If I had a dollar for the number of times the missus has asked why I didn't answer a call, despite the phone not ringing I would be very rich.

The reason for it is quite simple, when you roam your last known location is given to your home carrier. When someone calls you the call is sent to this last known location. Whilst the call is being set-up your carrier will play ring tone to your caller, then when the roaming carrier gets back saying it cannot find your phone you get busy, so it seems like the call rang, got connected then disconnected, when in reality it didn't get through.

But being seen as active on a data service, cannot explain that one.

[Tamara S]

Photos of the fake passport holders

[Tamara S]

This is going to cause a stir, aussie girls in the flight deck of a Malaysian jet for the entire length of an international flight. The very same pilot who is first officer on the missing jet.

Seems he was a Captain on the 767 before being fo on the 777

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/article/8812646/woman-raises-questions-about-cockpit-behaviour

[Paul F]

They can find water below the surface on planets millions km,s away with satellites yet they cant find a jetliner in one of the most populated areas on earth.

[Henning S]

This is going to cause a stir, aussie girls in the flight deck of a Malaysian jet for the entire length of an international flight. The very same pilot who is first officer on the missing jet.

Seems he was a Captain on the 767 before being fo on the 777

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/article/8812646/woman-raises-questions-about-cockpit-behaviour

Quite shocking and very exciting news! Thanks for sharing!

[Paul F]

Very unfair and done in bad taste just ACA trying to make story out of nothing :mad:

[Henning S]

Photos of the fake passport holders

Is the bottom half of the left picture the same as the bottom half of the right one?

[NathanJ]

Is the bottom half of the left picture the same as the bottom half of the right one?

Nice spotting... Seriously people can you all stop posting links to absolute rubbish reporting.

The way the media is covering this story at the moment is painting an awful picture of just how dumbed down and misled our society is becoming.

[Hugh Jarse]

Nothing on a current affair or today tonight is based on factual information.

[Henning S]

The picture is actually an official one and was shown by a Malaysian police officer to the press.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-plane-fake-passport-users-were-likely-asylum-seekers-not-terrorists-20140311-hvhf8.html

And another picture of the police woman showing the photo (from German media):
http://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/apolicewomanholdsupaphotoofoneofthetwom_37460228_m bhf-1394529600-35020402/2,w=559,c=0.bild.jpg

[Tamara S]

Seriously people can you all stop posting links to absolute rubbish reporting

Most of my stuff comes from the press conferences, and yes I notice the photo but thats what they held up in the press conference.

[Tamara S]

Nothing on a current affair or today tonight is based on factual information.

So you're saying photos of pax in a secure cockpit in flight does not raise some suspicion? Smoking in a cockpit?

Im sure your aware of the backside kicking you would be getting Hugh if you took someone up front inflight for photos.

How do you know something similar dident happen on this flight and the tech crew accidently disconnected the autopilot causing an uncontrolled spin?

My partner who is a current A330 pilot and myself being cabin crew would be dismissed if we let any pax in the cockpit!

Anyway.... no more speculating from me....

[Montague S]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiZ4CurCYAAUOFM.jpg

here are the two lads using the fake passports, 2nd from left is using the Austrian and far right is using the Italian passport..

[Henning S]

Montague S, where did you find that picture?

[Montague S]

does it matter? it's 110% the two guys that are being talked about.

[Henning S]

They are definitely wearing the exact same clothes as on the official pictures from the airport. But still when someone posts something here, I like to know the source of the information.

[Tamara S]

Latest Media Release
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html


This statement is in reference to the many queries on the alleged five (5) passengers who checked-in but did not board MH370 on 8 March 2014 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing despite having valid tickets to travel.

Malaysia Airlines wishes to clarify that there were four (4) passengers who had valid booking to travel on flight MH370, 8 March 2014, but did not show up to check-in for the flight.

As such, the issue of off-loading unaccompanied baggage did not arise, as the said four passengers did not check in for the flight. Hence, the above claim is untrue.*


Hmmm there the ones that said multiple times that all the baggage was offloaded, so now there saying they never checked in and no bags were loaded? But 24 hours ago they said they offloaded all the bags of the pax, things are not adding up here

[Montague S]

They are definitely wearing the exact same clothes as on the official pictures from the airport. But still when someone posts something here, I like to know the source of the information.

the source is far away from here...the photographer has contacted MH and is also in contact with the mother of the lad using the passport to travel to Frankfurt.

[JamesL]

The aircraft is fitted with ACARS which is independent to the SSR/ADS-B. Where is that information?

[JamesL]

From Reuters

Malaysia military tracked missing jet to Strait of Malacca: source

KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Malaysia's military believes it tracked the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner by radar over the Strait of Malacca, far from where it last made contact with civilian air traffic control off the country's east coast, a military source told Reuters.

The Strait of Malacca, one of the world's busiest shipping channels, runs along Malaysia's west coast. The airline said on Saturday that the flight carrying 227 passengers and 12 crew last had contact off the east coast Malaysian town of Kota Bharu.

"It changed course after Kota Bharu and took a lower altitude. It made it into the Malacca Strait," the military official, who has been briefed on investigations, told Reuters.

[David Knudsen]

A couple of interesting updates on avherald (http://www.avherald.com)

The aircraft has last undergone maintenance on Feb 23rd 2014. All Malaysia Airlines aircraft are equipped with ACARS transmitting monitoring data automatically. However, no distress call and no information was relayed

On Mar 11th 2014 Malaysia's Air Force reported their primary radar data suggest, the aircraft may have turned west over the Gulf of Thailand at about 1000 meters/3000 feet below the original flight level (editorial note: another possible interpretation could be: at 1000 meters of height compared to 10000 meters original level) and flown past the east coast near Khota Baru and the west coast of Malaysia near Kedah, the radar return was last seen at 02:40L near Pulau Perak in the Straits of Malacca, about 285nm westsouthwest of the last known (secondary) radar position. Local Police at Khota Bharu confirmed a number of locals reported lights and a low flying aircraft at Khota Bharu at an estimated height of 1000 meters/3000 feet.

[Daniel M]

I'm expecting an imminent announcement. Lot's of cover ups in this whole thing, the truth is about to come out.

[Kurt A]

I like to know the source of the information.

The pic has been floating around the internet on various sites. BBC and CNN have their own version now with two of the faces blurred out. But some originals are below:

Scroll down a bit for the pic:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=781070&page=33

See/read the original note that went along with the pic that has now since been blurred by CNN:
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1102531

Some background to the pic:
http://gma.yahoo.com/last-day-malaysia-airline-passengers-stolen-passports-040330446--abc-news-topstories.html

[Greg Hyde]

The longer the story goes on, the longer the press will "beat" the story up. They will attempt to find "aviation experts" who will tell them what they want to hear. Bombs, terror, hijack, crew ....

You would of noticed that the story is no longer lead story on last nights news. No new vision no new clues.

Again they need to find any angle they can get on the story. You can only interview the victims relatives so many times.

ATSB director was on the ABC midday news and he said that he wouldn't speculate on what has happened. You can imagine how that goes down at some news services.

Expect some weird/fantasy stories the longer that the story runs.

[Henning S]

"the radar return was last seen at 02:40L near Pulau Perak in the Straits of Malacca"

This is actually interesting. Do you remember that initially MH told people that the aircraft disappeared after two hours of flying? And only after some time they changed their statement and said they actually lost contact at 1:30L which almost matched the disappearence from the FlightRadar website.

2:40L is exactly 2hrs after the plane departed. So if this new information is true, MH might really have received the last information from the flight at 2:40L. Maybe that have been the last ACARS transmissions which might be the reason why they haven't released the ACARS data to the public yet.

If the plane was flying at 3000ft there might have been an incident when it actually turned around. Maybe a loss of cabin pressure that forced the pilot to go to a lower altitude. But then there should have been a distress call unless parts of the electronics got damaged. The pilot might have tried to fly the plane back to the mainland. But I've got no clue why it then crossed the mainland and continued its way out over the Straits of Malacca.

I also find it quite strange that a plane appears on military radar and flies over a country and that doesn't trigger any action? There's still some information missing... This still doesn't make sense.

Let's see what we get tomorrow.

[Philip Argy]

FlightAware log ..

http://www.16right.com/MessageBoard/MH370 20140309 B.jpg

I think the Malaysian Air Force has made a mistake in asserting that they subsequently tracked this a/c west to the Straits of Malacca. If the transponder was [switched] off it would be hard to be confident of the a/c you were tracking I'd have thought. And if the transponder was still on as the Air Force implicitly claims, why doesn't FR or Planefinder or anyone else have data showing that position?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-plane-military-believes-it-tracked-missing-jetliner-over-strait-of-malacca-20140311-hvhjg.html

[Tamara S]

You too can help look for the missing aircraft....

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/crowdsourcing-the-search-for-malaysia-flight-370/

An American company has set up a web site to enable users to scour the area where MH370 is believed to have gone down using imagery from 5 satellites. Web site below:
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014?source=abc


Someone thinks they found it from the satellites
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1103537

On another note, seems ACARS sent two burts of engine data when it vanished
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25201-malaysian-plane-sent-out-engine-data-before-vanishing.html

[Rich W]

Someone thinks they found it from the satellites
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1103537


Looks like a ship or a boat travelling at speed with wave trails behind it to me. Unless the water is very shallow in that area! Looks like if it was the plane, it didn't break up too much and didn't sink much either!

The article doesn't say exactly where they pinned this sighting?

[Tamara S]

http://mobile.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/the-tweets-from-a-passenger-who-claims-to-have-missed-boarding-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/story-fnizu68q-1226852311845


https://mobile.twitter.com/KaidenDL

http://cylithria.me/2014/03/10/my-public-statement-on-flight-mh370/

[Tamara S]

Now the military chief is denying he said that it was last tracked over the Malaca strait, it seems they say something and then retract it hours later. Yet he said the stuff during a press conference. Bizzare

[Joe Frampton]

Sounds like all the Malaysian government is sure of is the plane is not at the airport....

[Tamara S]

Malaysian minister says "its not the right time to release military data" This has caused angry outrage by the familys.

They have now expanded the search to land areas.
They are hiding something !!!
https://mobile.twitter.com/STForeignDesk

[Tamara S]

Seems the search operation is scaling down

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-vietnam-scales-down-sar-1.508890

[damien b]

Gotta love the speculation, about turns and everything else that is taking place with the search and reporting on MH370. I feel the Malaysian government knows more than it is letting on but for "sensitive" reasons is keeping quiet where possible.

[Tamara S]

BBC are reporting search ships are being sent to this area after a New Zealand oil rig worker spotted something. See attached image of the email and story is at http://m.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26527390

Do you notice anything to the right of this map? User on airliners.net think its a plane laying sideways
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894

[Montague S]

BBC are reporting search ships are being sent to this area after a New Zealand oil rig worker spotted something. See attached image of the email and story is at http://m.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26527390

Do you notice anything to the right of this map? User on airliners.net think its a plane laying sideways
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894


Probably best you stop quoting every news source because so far they've all lead to nothing.

It's fairly safe to assume that the plane is in the gulf somewhere, and i believe it will eventually be found. Until then, it's all talk.

[Paul F]

Do you notice anything to the right of this map? User on airliners.net think its a plane laying sideways
http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014/map/4894 Tamara wouldnt you think it would have broken up on impact with the sea ;)

[Tamara S]

Depends.... Controlled landing? No time to evacuate?

But hey, I dont think it is but thought I would share it as its making a lot of talk on airliners.

By the way news 24 is just about to go live to a press conference from KL.

PS: Montague, Point taken and apologies to other users who have had to put up with my posts on this incident.

[Montague S]

the one thing about that BBC report is that it correlates with the area CX crew reported seeing wreckage...I cannot believe that they haven't searched this area.

[NathanJ]

I'm with Montague. Until something with any solid credibility is found please everybody refrain from posting pure speculative junk. Modern media these days is an absolute joke and they will continue to "report" on anything even minutely related to the actual facts so long as the masses keep reading and reposting it!

[Hugh Jarse]

So you're saying photos of pax in a secure cockpit in flight does not raise some suspicion? Smoking in a cockpit?

Im sure your aware of the backside kicking you would be getting Hugh if you took someone up front inflight for photos.

How do you know something similar dident happen on this flight and the tech crew accidently disconnected the autopilot causing an uncontrolled spin?

My partner who is a current A330 pilot and myself being cabin crew would be dismissed if we let any pax in the cockpit!

Anyway.... no more speculating from me....


I'm well aware of my responsibilities with regard to flight deck security (and smoking on an aircraft). But thanks for reminding me, Tamara.

The flight in question happened 3 years ago, according to the claimant. If she was TRULY concerned about security and safety, why didn't she report it to MAS at the time? Seems she's looking for 15 minutes of fame with the tabloids, who are desperate to capitalise on other peoples' follies. That makes me sick.

[Tamara S]

I'm well aware of my responsibilities with regard to flight deck security (and smoking on an aircraft). But thanks for reminding me, Tamara.

was not having a go at you. In relation to the aca report im sure the girls got a nice little slice of cash

[Montague S]

watching ABC News 24 and it's absolutely apparent that the people answering the questions are out of their depth.

[Tamara S]

they seem to avoid answering the quistain about acars and keeps mumbling about radar

I just saw ads on channel 7 for a one hour show "what happened to MH370" to be screened at 10:30PM tommorow night"

[Montague S]

I'll be sure to be asleep come 1030 tomorrow night...like CH7 would have a clue about what happened to MH370.

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi a All,

I have one question - why aren't they using side scanning sonar to locate it, in the main search area?

There has been no mention of this as yet, only 40 ships which could be running over it with the speed and the number of ships in area, so they won't Be hearing the pinging of the black boxes.

There has been too much speculation on radar, as to last position, and nothing about on sonar searches.

Start using sonar and you will find it somewhere along the flight path!!

Are other aircraft actually listening as well, as they overfly the area??

Soo many questions, but no answers!

Stuart

[Greg Hyde]

Side-scan sonar has it's limitations over a large area. Unless you have a target area then it is near useless. It will pick up anything on the ocean floor including shipwrecks, shipping containers etc.

Have a look at the "Search for HMAS Sydney".

Also, no aircraft ditching and/or hitting the water won't leave floating debris. (Yes bits fell off, including an engine when the A320 ditched into the Hudson)

The pinners from the black boxes only have a limited range and are only designed to assist investigators to find the boxes within a wreckage field.

When AF407 went down it's position was found by analysing tidal movements and the location of floating debris. The investigators got lucky when the tail broken off when the aircraft hit the water.

[Adrian B]

So based on the coordinates in that letter, be it genuine or not, that places the rig about 100-125 kms east of Con Son Island off Vietnam, which has a sealed strip albeit about 1 km in length.

Plausible?

[JamesL]

I would be pretty sure that the RAAF P3s would be using the MADboom on the aircraft to conduct similar duties.

[Philip Argy]

The lack of a rational approach, the unco-ordinated media appearances of separate authorities, the refusal to answer seemingly innocuous but relevant questions about ACARS etc all create a truly sickening situation for anyone who imagines that the global aviation community can get its act together in a time of crisis.

A logical early step given the lack of wreckage anywhere near the last contact point would have been to go to where the a/c would have run out of fuel had it continued on autopilot as programmed. That would assume an hypoxia event or other crew incapacitation the cause of which may have also caused a comms or power failure, but that's more plausible than some of the many theories coming out of Malaysia now, with the military's disavowal of any radar tracking just the icing on a very poorly baked cake.

[Tamara S]

not going to post the news link im sure you can check the sites.

There is breaking news coming out of China that a Chinease satellite has found three debris fields and the largest floating object is about 24X22 meters and there located at the same location as the transponder was lost.

The bit that is interesting is these sat images were taken the day after it went missing? Why has it taken 5 days to check them?

Only reason im posting this is because its close to where tracking was lost and the size of the object.

[Ian Garton]

I think this release by China is the most likely site. They wouldn't release this unless they were sure.
This has been a political minefield for the countries in the region, and it looks like Malaysia has been caught out of their depth, and are very embarrassed.

[Tamara S]

6°42'00.0"N 105°37'48.0"E

[Tamara S]

Things are starting to leak....

appears acars was still sending engine data as NTSB/FAA investigators suspect the aircraft remained in the air for over five hours after dissapearing.

[Torin Wilson]

http://tinyurl.com/m7jnd8x

Re the 4-5 hour flying info.

[Montague S]

why so long for RR to speak about this?

[Geoff Br]

I suppose it begs the question IF this RR 4+ hours engine data stream is from this aircraft and not another, were the engines and altitude being 'controlled' by a professional pilot and were the last readings indicating a 'landing' sequence. I think some "one" may have known about this data stream from the beginning and maybe trying to deduce where the a/c is?

[Torin Wilson]

That information, along with all else has been retracted and stated as false.

[Geoff Br]

I think until the time we see a photo of this a/c, whatever condition it is found, all comments from the many sources can be considered just an opinion. Maybe the international airlines need some sort of body of people who coordinate occurrences like this to enforce some sort of rigor and responsible coordinated action.

[Ian Garton]

That information, along with all else has been retracted and stated as false.

This is happening so often with this case. What is going on?

[NathanJ]

With the absence of any credible facts global media outlets are fueling the majority of the misinformation in this saga in desperation to stay ahead of the pack in the reporting stakes.

There is clearly something much more sinister and not of the normal circumstances happening behind closed doors right now.

[Rich W]

Does anyone know the technology how this engine data is transmitted? How could they receive this info up to 4 hours after the last ACARS message? Why wouldn't Malaysian Airlines have this info too? In the press conference they mentioned that no other data was received after the last ACARS message. Smells like media hype to me.

[NathanJ]

This information has since been debunked...

[Laurent Sanhard]

I think the Malaysian government , Malaysia airline officials know a lot more than they are letting on , probably for security reasons they are holding back certain info from the public , for all we know the aircraft could be in the desert somewhere in the mid east / or Pakistan , etc??? we still don't really know what happened to TWA 800 , even though the wreckage was found

[Rich W]

This information has since been debunked...
I thought that too however apparently... "The engines of a missing Malaysian airliner continued to operate for about four hours after it disappeared from radar over the Gulf of Thailand, US authorities said on Thursday"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing-malaysia-airlines-jet-search-turns-to-indian-ocean-amid-confusion-over-radar-20140314-hvimc.html#ixzz2vtkaOuLZ

[Michael Mak]

Either the Malaysian Government knows a lot more than what they have publicly stated, or they don't have the faintest idea of what has happened to the plane.

[Hugh Jarse]

Does anyone know the technology how this engine data is transmitted? How could they receive this info up to 4 hours after the last ACARS message? Why wouldn't Malaysian Airlines have this info too? In the press conference they mentioned that no other data was received after the last ACARS message. Smells like media hype to me.


Generally, via standard VHF link. If it is unable to connect that way, then it uses satphone.

[Rich W]

I know its too early yet but in the future, don't you think it would make more sense that the transponder is securely located so it is not allowed to be turned off by anyone on board? Obviously this won't help if there is some kind of malfunction however at least in MH370 case, would have ruled out the possibility of foul play.

[NathanJ]

I thought that too however apparently... "The engines of a missing Malaysian airliner continued to operate for about four hours after it disappeared from radar over the Gulf of Thailand, US authorities said on Thursday"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing-malaysia-airlines-jet-search-turns-to-indian-ocean-amid-confusion-over-radar-20140314-hvimc.html#ixzz2vtkaOuLZ

Don't believe everything you read on the internet!

SMH article from this morning states that those claims reported in the wall street journal were "unverified".

http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-missing-plane-mh370--vanished-says-malaysia-20140313-hvifu.html

Then this article states that "Sources familiar with the investigation reiterated that neither Boeing nor Rolls-Royce had received any engine maintenance data from the jet after the point at which its pilots last made contact. Only one engine maintenance update was received during the normal phase of flight, they said, speaking on condition on anonymity"

http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing-malaysia-airlines-jet-search-turns-to-indian-ocean-amid-confusion-over-radar-20140314-hvimc.html#ixzz2vtkaOuLZ

So much "story" telling!!!

[Todd Hendry]

I know its too early yet but in the future, don't you think it would make more sense that the transponder is securely located so it is not allowed to be turned off by anyone on board? Obviously this won't help if there is some kind of malfunction however at least in MH370 case, would have ruled out the possibility of foul play.

No Rich.

If it caught on fire I'd rather be able to cut power to it than worry about something so remote as this happening.

A transponder is only as good as the ground equipment it talks or doesn't talk to.

Todd.

[NathanJ]

Interesting new article from one of the USA's most credible reporting agencies...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/malaysian-airlines-expands-investigation-to-includ,35524/?ref=auto

[Montague S]

Either the Malaysian Government knows a lot more than what they have publicly stated, or they don't have the faintest idea of what has happened to the plane.

once again the latter would be correct..and that's partly due to 50 years of 1 government rule.

[Olle Q]

Reauters are supposed to be a reliable source, but in this case I don´t know. Read this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/14/us-malaysia-airlines-radar-exclusive-idUSBREA2D0DG20140314

[Paul F]

New radar evidence shows flight MH370 following waypoints towards the Andaman Islands.

[Olle Q]

Andaman Islands? If they landed there, do they have an air-strip long enough för a triple 7? And why this group of islands?

[Jayden Laing]

I think so Ollie. Vir Savarkar Airport is the only airport there however it's controlled by the Indian navy & only daytime flights are allowed.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vir_Savarkar_Airport

[Geoff Br]

This link seems to present an up to date reference of the circumstances http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

[Grahame Hutchison]

From NEWS.COM.AU (http://www.news.com.au/world/malaysia-confirms-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-was-hijacked/story-fndir2ev-1226855315871) ...


A MALAYSIAN government official says investigators have concluded that one of the pilots or someone else with flying experience hijacked the missing Malaysia Airlines jet.
The news comes after seven days of fruitless searches for Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370), and after revelations suggesting the plane made several course corrections after the cockpit’s last known contact with air traffic control.
The official, who is involved in the investigation, says no motive has been established, and it is not yet clear where the plane was taken. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to brief the media.
The official said that hijacking was no longer a theory. “It is conclusive.’’

[Torin Wilson]

Malaysian PM to give news conference 1:30pm Malaysia time (in 23 minutes)

[Torin Wilson]

Should be just about to begin

Live stream http://english.astroawani.com/videos/live

And here http://www.livestation.com/en/reuters#

No questions are allowed in the conference

[Grahame Hutchison]

1724 On now

From Malaysian Prime Minister :

Confirms that MH370 turned back across Malay Peninsula, then headed northwest.

After that it may have tracked into the Indian Ocean (southern corridor), or up towards Thailand and Kazakhstan (northern corridor). The FAA, NTSB, AAIB and other Authorities analysed the satellite and primary radar data separately, and concur on this result. All countries in the northern and southern corridors have been invited to a briefing.

Now investigating all passengers and crew.

Search efforts in the South China Sea now suppended while the reassess the use of resources.

[Daniel M]

Malaysian PM has confirmed that aircaft has been hijacked, with a high degree of probability

ACARS and transponder deliberately switched off

Aircraft could be as far away as Kazakstan.

[Arthur T]

So where is the plane?
I found this has been so bizarre. How dare you know the plane flew to Indian Ocean last week yet no disclosure made and everyone searched over the Thailand Gulf?
How much money and human effort do you want to waste in search and rescue mission for MH370?
I'm totally disappointed and my confidence in Malaysian air safety & security needs serious reconsideration.
I hope Malaysia and neighbouring countries will reveal the truth of this incident, so we can get the plane and passengers back.

[Olle Q]

How long have the Malaysian authorities know it was hijacked before the PM confirmed it today? And if it is a question of days, why didn´t the authorities say anything?

[Grahame Hutchison]

Last known position of MH370 based on satellite data according to Malaysian authorities. Let's
hope it was on the northern red line and they have landed safely somewhere. Based on the northern
arc, it's a bit out there, but could this turn out to be linked to the current crisis over Ukraine and
the Crimea, some sort of hostage leverage to force Russia's hand, or a 911 style attack on Moscow ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Biw3B8KCcAA89Ex.jpg

[Michael Cleary]

And based on the Southern Arc, about the only place it could have landed would be Diego Garcia - but the Americans would have said so - wouldn't they?

[Scott S]

The press conference this afternoon only indicated that Malaysia Airlines will have nothing to do with this anymore, so does the government. They don't have anything to keep hiding and things progressed much quicker than they expected, especially the Ping to the satellite. It's the time for the main actors on the stage.

This is a joint operation of US and China, there were Jammer involved. The operation is about possible small nuclear device on board, of course have been offloaded before the flight took off. The nuclear thing is targeting Beijing, part of the plan of the coup to destablise the current government.

The aircraft did landed on Diego Garcia, unclear if it is still there or not.

The Chinese passengers has already back in China in somewhere, highly likely on Hainan Island.

[Michael Cleary]

Whacky theory. But, as things stand, anything is possible.

[Bob C]

Hi Scott C

Could you please edit your post, and perhaps send it again in a more readable form.

Cheers

Bob C

[Philip Argy]

I was not aware of the engine data satellite comms/pinging independent of ACARS and transponder - can anyone on here who knows what they're talking about explain how this works, assuming the basic proposition is accurate?

[Montague S]

Last known position of MH370 based on satellite data according to Malaysian authorities. Let's
hope it was on the northern red line and they have landed safely somewhere. Based on the northern
arc, it's a bit out there, but could this turn out to be linked to the current crisis over Ukraine and
the Crimea, some sort of hostage leverage to force Russia's hand, or a 911 style attack on Moscow ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Biw3B8KCcAA89Ex.jpg

if the red line is accurate that would put the a/c very close to ZWWW at some stage..could it seriously fly over India & China without detection?

[Grahame Hutchison]

Philip, From what I understand, the engine performance monitoring is transmitted via ACARS, using radio or satellite communications. The data can also be stored and transmitted when coms are available - I have seen several examples where complete tracks from LAX to SYD have been downloaded via ACARS when the aircraft is 250nm out of Sydney. ACARS engine status reporting is done independent of the Tech Crew, and ACARS is not related to the Transponder at all. The CDU can be used by the pilots to send/receive other information via ACARS, like weather, gate numbers requests etc. Other systems can interface to ACARS to send messages.

I am not sure if the complete ACARS system can be shutdown by the pilots (maybe someone else can answer that one).

Some ACARS examples from this morning ...

ACARS mode: 2 Aircraft reg: .VH-OQC Operational Coms
Message label: 87 Block id: 1 Msg. no: U58A
Flight id: QF0012
Message content:-
TO OPERATIONS
DELAY. LAST DOOR CLOSED ON SCHEDULE HOWEVER JUST AFTER DOOR CLOSURE
ECAM FOR SURV-WX RADAR AND TAWS. SPOKE WITH ENGINEER AND COMPLETED
A RESET. PUSHED BACK AT 0602
-------------------------------------[16/03/2014 06:30]

ACARS mode: S Aircraft reg: .CC-CQF System Status
Message label: H1 Block id: 0 Msg. no: C18A
Flight id: LA0801
Message content:-
#CFB.1/WRN/WN1403152001 732102506MAINTENANCE STATUS ECU3 CHAN A
-------------------------------------[16/03/2014 07:00]

ACARS mode: S Aircraft reg: .CC-CQF
Message label: H1 Block id: 1 Msg. no: C19A
Flight id: LA0801
Message content:-
#CFB.1/WRN/WN1403152001 732103006MAINTENANCE STATUS ECU3 CHAN B
-------------------------------------[16/03/2014 07:00]

ACARS mode: S Aircraft reg: .VH-OJU Inbound With PAX Details
Message label: 86 Block id: 4 Msg. no: M05A
Flight id: QF0108
Message content:-
ARI
ETAB 2125YSSY
WHLCHR 02 / MED
ASST MINORS PAX
SICK N
SI NO TO AQIS.
h M O $O
-------------------------------------[16/03/2014 07:45]

ACARS mode: 2 Aircraft reg: .VH-OJU AMDAR Weather Report - Lat,Long,Alt,Turbulence etc
Message label: H1 Block id: 5 Msg. no: D26A
Flight id: QF0108
Message content:-
#2TBKLAXYSSY
AMDAR 1521
D3330S15305E2101F340M507272041008
D3337S15251E2103F301M401281029009
D3343S15239E2104F266M308298025010
D3349S15229E2106F236M235303035009
D3354S15219E2108F208M168299034007
-------------------------------------[16/03/2014 08:08]

ACARS mode: 2 Aircraft reg: .VH-OGR Engine Report
Message label: H1 Block id: Msg. no: D004
Flight id: QF0091
Message content:-
#2UBBLD-TKO
VH-OGR QFA0091
2207 15MAR14 SYD- NOU- CL 7 VER026
LEFT ENG RIGHT ENG
======== =========
CL NO CL NO HPSOV POS
NC NO NC NO PRV POS
98 1
-------------------------------------[16/03/2014 09:11]
ACARS mode: 2 Aircraft reg: .VH-OGR
Message label: H1 Block id: Msg. no: D005
Flight id: QF0091
Message content:-
#2UB00 PRV EXIT PRESS
NC NO NC NO FAV POS
H H TEMP RANGE FLG
181 196 FATS TEMP
NC NO NC NO PRSOV POS
0 0 ISO VALV
-------------------------------------[16/03/2014 09:11]

[Grahame Hutchison]

From NEWS.COM.AU (http://www.news.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-diverted-by-deliberate-action-pilots-under-scrutiny-amid-hijack-fears/story-fndir2ev-1226855986042)


The latest developments in the investigation come as British media are speculating the plane’s disappearance could also be linked to al-Qaeda.
A plot created by Malaysian Islamists to hijack the Malaysia Airlines plane in a 9/11-style attack is being investigated, The UK’s Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10700652/Malaysia-Airline-MH370-911-style-terror-allegations-resurface-in-case-of-lost-plane.html)reports.

It comes after al-Qaeda informant Saajid Badat, a British-born Muslim from Gloucester, told a court that a group of Malaysian men had been planning to take control of a plane, using a bomb hidden in a shoe to blow open the cockpit door.

Security experts said his evidence was “credible”.



Badat said that he had met the Malaysian jihadists – one of whom was a pilot – in Afghanistan and given them a shoe bomb to use to take control of an aircraft.
In giving evidence at the trial in New York of Sulaiman Abu Ghaith, Osama bin Laden’s son-in-law, Badat said: “I gave one of my shoes to the Malaysians. I think it was to access the cockpit.”

Badat, who spoke via video link, said the Malaysian plot was being masterminded by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was behind the 9/11 attack in the US in 2001.

[Scott L.]

I wonder what Uncle Sam knows, or what they saw and maybe what they can currently see and what they can hear?

[MarkR]

I was not aware of the engine data satellite comms/pinging independent of ACARS and transponder - can anyone on here who knows what they're talking about explain how this works, assuming the basic proposition is accurate?


Forget the engine data, it's been confirmed no ACARS transmissions have been made before handover. What they have done is looked at the handshake ping that occurs once every hour from the Immarsat to clients. Presumably the return ping also provides the satellite with elevation data, that is where the aircraft is seeing the sat on the horizon, if you look at the image there are clear angle rings, starting from 90 at the sat, which of course is what the antenna angle would be at underneath the sat.

Whoever took the aircraft was not across the fact a satcom pings, despite all the devices connected to it being shutdown. Had the aircraft been newer it would probably have the irridium package which are low orbit sats, and would have been able to narrow down the location to a much smaller area. The foot print on each Immarsat takes up 1/3 of each part of the world at the equator, but is non existent / unusable once you get past + or - 70 degrees of latitude heading for the poles.

[Jon B]

Two questions regarding the recent announcements on possible track of the aircraft

1 - If it had flown on the southern track into Indian Ocean would it not have potentially shown up on the Australian JORN network?
2 - I have not flown on Malaysian Airlines for a few years but would any passenger onboard who had the flight path on the IFE see the plane change course and then contine on a course that was not towards the destination?

[JamesL]

2 - Yes, unless the system was shut down.

[Bob C]

Hi James L

My thoughts exactly as I posed the question about JORN (Jindalee Over The Horizon Radar Network) on Oz-spotters a few days ago.

JORN has a published range of 1000 - 3000 kms (and possibly more) depending on atmospheric conditions so if the missing aircraft did head southwest it COULD have been within range of JORN, provided of course it was operational as I understand that it does not operate 24/7 !!

The station at Laverton in W A would have been the closest and most likely to detect it. So therefore I presume that even if the transponders were turned off, JORN may have tracked an unidentified aircraft over the Indian Ocean as did the other military radars in South East Asia.

And I also thought about the IFE and iPad if u were a passenger watching the course but I presume the screens would have gone blank if systems had been turned off but I don't know enough to make a really informed comment.

However, I have carried an old fashioned compass in my camera bag for years (a relic of Orienteering and CMF days) and sometimes use it on aircraft when I'm returning from MEL to PER, usually due west on a heading of 270 degrees. The slightest change in course swings the compass so if the aircraft I was travelling did dramatically change course, then I would know about it.

But what can you do when travelling in an aluminium tube at 10,000 metres ? Just panic I suppose.

[Nigel C]

I presume at that time of the night, most of the pax would have been asleep so they wouldn't have noticed any change in heading anyway.

[Montague S]

MH has confirmed that the last radio transmission was from the f/o.

[Grahame Hutchison]

Another Interesting Theory ...

MH370 shadows SQ68 (http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68) through the volatile airspace of India and Pakistan, and then breaks off to its final destination.

[David N]

This and something else I have read linked from the same site is very scary stuff.

We can only hope evidence of wreckage is found soon instead of the alternative to what these sites are now suggesting.

[Montague S]

and now MH has confirmed that the ACARS was not disconnected before the final transmission...50 years of 1 party rule = absolute circus.

[Nigel C]

A plausible theory, amongst the many, many others.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2014/03/mh370-electrical-fire/

[David Knudsen]

I thought an on board fire might have been a possibility, I believe an exact cause was never found for the Egypt Air 777-200ER (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20110729-0) ground fire in the cockpit that was fed by the crew oxygen?

However I don't see the possibility that the fire was so intense that it disabled acars, transponder and comms (but not the autopilot, or the power to the inmarsat unit that replied to pings), incapacitated the crew and the passengers but then somehow self extinguished and allowed the aircraft to keep on flying for another 6 hours?

That's my two cents on that particular theory anyway.

On a slightly less related note, the Aviation Safety Network posted an interactive map that shows the courses of all 88 aircraft that have disappeared without a trace (http://news.aviation-safety.net/2014/03/18/asn-records-over-80-aircraft-missing-since-1948/) since 1948 for anyone who missed it.

[Grahame Hutchison]

An interesting Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JfMKGolWCAA)video representation of the satellite arcs.

[Montague S]

Amsa news conference in 5 mins. Believe to be found off WA coast.

[Nigel C]

4 hours flying time from Perth is where they say objects have been located by satellite. An Orion has been in the area since just before 2pm AEDT but visiblity is reported as poor.

[Greg Hyde]

Targets found some 2,000 km off Perth. One supposedly 24m in size

One RAAF Orion currently searching area, Three more a/c (1x RAAF Orion, 1 x RNZAF Orion, 1 x USN Posiden) will keep up a continous search over the target area.

A/c can only search for 2 hrs over target area.

A ship in the area has also been diverted into the target area.

[Adrian B]

Do the Orions have air to air refuelling capabilities? I know the Posidens do.

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Is the RAAF sending up the KC30A for refuelling duties or for search duties given their range?

Stuart

[Bob C]

Hi Stuart

Probably not because I don't think that the Orions or C130Js have an air-to-air refuelling capability. I'm not sure about the USN P8 Poseidon and presume that it doesn't possess that capability either.

An answer off the top of my head without any research.

[Bob C]

Oops, I didn't see Adrian's post about the P8 and afaik, there are no KC30s in W A assisting in the search effort.

[Jon B]

Not sure about USN P8 but in any event 737 (such as RAAF Wedgetail that can refuel) can only do so once as I recall being told that every 14 hours or so the engines required an oil refill

[Greg Hyde]

Orions can't air refuel.

That why it is 4-5hrs out and back and about 2hrs over search area.

They have 2 merchant ships in the search areas.

It's a pity that the the new HMAS Canberra hasn't been commissioned yet as it could be used as a floating helo base within the search area.

[Grahame Hutchison]

From NEWS.COM.AU ...


Four aircraft have been tasked by the Australian Maritime Safety Authority to focus on the 23,000 square kilometre search area, which is about 2500 kilometres southwest of Perth.

The first search plane set off from Perth at 6.15am local time (9.15am AEDT). It was expected to take four hours to reach the search area.

A civil Gulfstream jet and a second RAAF P3 Orion was due to leave at approximately 11am (AEDT), and a third RAAF P3 Orion at 1pm (AEDT).

The United States Navy P8 Poseidon aircraft is due to head to the search area at approximately 4pm (AEDT).


Not quite a Gulfstream, but looks like VH-TGG is the corporate jet involved in the search, departing Perth at 08:43 WST for Perth..

From FlightAware ...

VH-TGG (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHTGG) GLEX (http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/GLEX) Perth Int'l (YPPH / PER (http://flightaware.com/live/airport/YPPH)) Fri 08:33 WST Fri 14:14 WST

http://www.16Right.com/MessageBoard/VH-TGG.jpg

[MarkR]

Orions can't air refuel.

That why it is 4-5hrs out and back and about 2hrs over search area.

They have 2 merchant ships in the search areas.

It's a pity that the the new HMAS Canberra hasn't been commissioned yet as it could be used as a floating helo base within the search area.

HMAS Success has a MH90 on board, that's all they need at present.

[Grahame Hutchison]

VH-TGG is now on descent back into Perth passing through FL160

[Mark Grima]

A couple private aircraft involved today, Vh-TGG again I think and a G5. Both are in the area now I understand.

Apparently the weather is pretty good today, hopefully it helps!

Cheers

M

[Jayden Laing]

VH-ICV (Global Express) & VH-LAL (G550) are also helping today! I heard that a Chinese Air Force IL-76 is enroute to Perth to lend a helping hand!

[Mark Grima]

Yeah I was just looking a bit more into it and realised TGG seemed to be on the ground!

[Bob C]

All this activity reminds me of the successful search by the RAAF and RAN for Tony Bullimore and Thierry Dubois when they went missing in waters far to the south west of W A during an Around The World Yacht race in January 1997.

Lets hope that the search for MH370 has a similar result.

[Grahame Hutchison]

Interesting flight plan for VH-TGG yesterday - Depart Perth, fly for 11 hours and only make two left turns, then return to Perth - all the time keeping your eyes peeled.

http://www.16right.com/MessageBoard/VH-TGG 02.jpg

[Greg Hyde]

ABCNews24 reporting that Chinese Satellite images found a 22x13m object in the ocean 120km SSW of the earlier Australian image.

A new target for sunrise tomorrow morning

[MarkR]

Interesting flight plan for VH-TGG yesterday - Depart Perth, fly for 11 hours and only make two left turns, then return to Perth - all the time keeping your eyes peeled.

http://www.16right.com/MessageBoard/VH-TGG 02.jpg

The flight plan would have the temporary restricted area as the turning point, movements within that area would not be planned as such but likely to the parallel runs up to 300-400km long.

[Greg Hyde]

Why aren't drones being used as part of the search effort ?

[MarkR]

There are none suitable for the task, with the ADF drones requiring a base station within 200km. The Global Hawk is not suitable for marine deployment, while its marine derivative is still in testing - the Talon.

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Given that time over search area is very limited to a few hours for the Orions, which can't be Air to Air Refuelled, why doesn't Qantas offer a B747-400ER for a few days with air observers onboard?

This way they could get at least 5 hours over target, based on 4 hours to / From Target = 8 hours + 5 hours search = 13 hours Total.

Just fill the bastard up with fuel, and you might just get 15-17 hours flying on 2 engines over search area.

Secondly, i hope someone at Defence ensures that any future aircraft, eg the P8 or the Wedgetail has the capability of Air to Air Refuelling, otherwise the KC30's have little use, if just for the Hornets!!

Also, why aren't the KC30's tasked for this job as well, given their range??

Stuart

[Ash W]

Probably for the same reason that Qantas doesn't fly Orions. Different aircraft, different rolls. Orion, although based on a passenger a/c can fly nice and low and nice and slow, thus making it ideal as a search a/c. No something a 747 can do all that easy. Also the windows on a 747 are not really designed for searching the sea too.

Same too with the KC30's.

[Greg Hyde]

The Orion was based on the Lockheed Electra which was used by Qantas in 1960's.

The Orion is a good platform as it can fly low (100ft) and slow and can operate on 3 engines to reduce fuel usage. You may notice in some of the news reports that the crew are sitting with their heads in blisters so that they can see over the side on the aircraft.

Does anyone know how much daylight is available in the search area ? (Dawn to Sunset) ?

All the sea-state determines the searchers ability to visually pick-up debris. (ie: Rough seas, debris could be hiding in the troughs of waves)

Still a needle in a smaller haystack

[Jason H]

Does anyone know how much daylight is available in the search area ? (Dawn to Sunset) ?

According to NAIPS at 44S 091E near the search area, it's 2332z to 1233z hours of daylight; so 0735 to 2033 WST.

[Greg Hyde]

thanks Jason,

ABCNEWS24 is reporting that a French satellite has also picked up debris in the search area.

If only you had a geostationary (stays in one spot relative to the earth) satellite with a live hi-res video feed with GPS co-ords which could be feed directly to search aircraft and shipping.

What sort of range does the MH90 on HMAS Success have ?

[Dennis F]

MH90 has a theoretical range of 800km. However, I would assume HMAS crew won't launch the chopper until they are within 100 or 200km of the search zone. Otherwise, the chopper wont have sufficient fuel to comb through the area and return to the ship.

[MarkR]

The Orion is a good platform as it can fly low (100ft) and slow and can operate on 3 engines to reduce fuel usage. You may notice in some of the news reports that the crew are sitting with their heads in blisters so that they can see over the side on the aircraft.

Does anyone know how much daylight is available in the search area ? (Dawn to Sunset) ?

All the sea-state determines the searchers ability to visually pick-up debris. (ie: Rough seas, debris could be hiding in the troughs of waves)

Still a needle in a smaller haystack

The P3 will operate on two engines in marine mode, which allows around 17 hours endurance (the kiwis did 20.5 hrs in one). They are not using that in this search as the shorter cycles allow the crew to be used daily not to mention the 2000km transit would be a waste of time on two.

[Nigel C]

Now the Chinese believe they've spotted possible debris from their Il-76, just over 2100kms from Perth.
http://www.news.com.au/world/chinese-aircrew-spot-suspicious-objects-in-search-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/story-fndir2ev-1226862829830

[Philip Argy]

I know the Chinese are here to help but I'm a bit sceptical that on their first day out they happen to spot what their satellite claimed to have photographed.

I suppose tomorrow their ship will pick up what they claim to have spotted too ... :rolleyes:

[Nigel C]

If it helps appease your scepticism, the Australian search crews have also found possible debris in the search area.......

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/new-objects-spotted-in-search-for-missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-says-tony-abbott/story-fnizu68q-1226863596129

[Stuart Trevena]

Hi All,

Was MRO in the old Livery or the new one?

If it was the old one, then according to the Herald Sun tonight, they have found some debris.

Here is the Quote "PRIME Minister Tony Abbott says two “objects” have been located by a RAAF P3 Orion in the search for Flight MH370.

Mr Abbott told Parliament the first object was grey or green and circular and the second was orange and rectangular.

HMAS Success is in the vicinity, about 2500km south-west of Perth, and hopes to be there within hours to recover the objects.

This could be the Grey under body colour of the livery and green, being the raw Protective coat.

Stuart

[Paul F]

Hi All,

Was MRO in the old Livery or the new one?

All MH 777,s are in the old livery.

[Philip Argy]

From what I can gather they refined their Doppler analysis by comparing the ping signal timings from recent flights on the MH370 route and other routes that traversed the so-called northern corridor option. As the successive-ping time delay was greater than the recent samples for planes travelling north, they concluded that the aircraft must have been further south and travelling sothwards, hence resolving the question of which corridor should be searched and where in that corridor the 'last ping' most likely emanated from.

Combined with the known fuel range and the last ping emitted from the B772, and the reported physical and satellite imagery of debris in the Southern Indian Ocean, the current search area firmed up as a highly plausible location for the a/c to have hit the ocean after fuel exhaustion. It also increases the likelihood of wings breaking off on impact remaining afloat due to empty fuel tanks.

With 17 days having elapsed, and wind and ocean currents that have moved tracking buoys up to 120 km in one day, it's not hard to see why widely dispersed sightings of debris remain consistent with the latest impact site theory.

The FDR will be of immense value but the CVR, with only two hours of recording, probably conclusive in establishing whether all aboard were hypoxic (ie two hours of voice silence) or whether there were words spoken which would signify a deliberate human act. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later that these vital questions get answered, and meanwhile the vigilance with which a/c are tracked around the globe is likely to be ramped up almost immediately, with departures from planned routes and transponder failures likely to become subject to immediate investigation rather than ignored.

[Scott L.]

Is it the Malaysian vigilance SoP that needs to be reviewed or the situation globally with respect to loss of radar, acars, ads-b, etc? In other words, if this happened to Qantas overseas or an aircraft here in Australia - would the response be different?

[Montague S]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-25/inside-the-us-poseidon-aircraft-searching-for-mh370/5343988

interesting piece by ABC journalist that joined the US Poseidon crew.

[Rich W]

I have a personal view that this incident may well have been some kind of depressurization and that at some stage the pilots became unconscious, thus the plane simply flew on until it ran out of fuel. However can someone with more knowledge try answer these things to help me out...

1. It makes sense that if it was depressurization that they would turn back to the nearest mainland (which it appears to have done) but why did it then fly past the mainland and go south? Assuming the pilots were unconscious, would the autopilot in anyway do this by itself? Or would this needed to be programmed or manually made?

2. Could depressurization somehow make the transponder turn off? In what way could the transponder turn off if it was not done intentionally? We have to rule out fire or some other catastrophic explosion because I would assume the plane would have gone down quicker?

3. The autopilot must have still been active. Otherwise how would it have flown for so long if the pilots were unconscious? If they were conscious, it appears no really attempt was made to contact ground or try get close to mainland after it turned south.

4. Is it possible for the cabin crew to contact head office/ground from their airline-phones if they knew something was wrong? Also, was MH370 equip with passenger phones from their seat?

[Grahame Hutchison]

Air safety experts question MH370’s impact on data connectivity

Full Text (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/air-safety-experts-question-mh370s-impact-on-data-397424/)


Aviation safety experts are dubious that the MH370 tragedy will spark urgent action to improve the data connectivity of airliners.

At the annual Flightglobal Safety in Aviation conference held in Singapore, a group of safety experts addressing airline safety heads agreed that the issue is not the amount of data aircraft produce, but the cost and challenge of getting it off the aircraft in a timely manner, and converting it into useful information for improving safety and conducting safety investigations.

[Greg McDonald]

And, in a standard reflection on American society:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/legal-action-launched-over-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-as-search-resumes-in-southern-indian-ocean/story-fnizu68q-1226864848018

[Grahame Hutchison]

From FlightGlobal ...

MH370 search area moved after aircraft speed data revised

Full Article (http://bit.ly/1l92Z3b)


The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) has shifted the search area for the lost Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER northeast from the previous location owing to revised calculations of the aircraft’s speed.

Following AMSA’s receipt of a “new credible lead”, the search has been moved 1,100km to the northeast of the previous search zone to a location 1,850 west of Perth.

The new search area is approximately 319,000km2, it adds.

[Jason H]

I don't understand this....does this mean that all the other 'debris' they found at the old location (2500km SW of Perth) is now considered to not be part of the aircraft? What about the 120 something pieces of debris they found there? Or the initial satellite photos that steered the search area to the Southern Indian Ocean in the first place? And then their confirmation that the aircraft did indeed crash in the Southern Indian Ocean; all based on satellite images of debris at an area that they have now changed to 1100km north?

Am I missing something???

[Philip Argy]

There are too many things that don't gel. About the only way I can reconcile them is to rationalise that obfuscation is being deliberately introduced to mask the true source and means by which new search areas are being identified and adopted.

The most recent change is too glibly explained by faster plane + more fuel burned = less distance. And the effort expended on the abandoned area is just wasted entirely?

If we get any closer to the Australian mainland OUR defence forces will have to start explaining what they knew and when they knew it ...

[Montague S]

full transcript of communications has been released.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-01/malaysia-airlines-mh370-cockpit-transcript-final-words-released/5360484

[Nigel C]

Has Malaysian Airlines 'retired' the MH370 flight number as a result of this disappearance?

[Andrew Coggan]

Has Malaysian Airlines 'retired' the MH370 flight number as a result of this disappearance?

Yes Nigel, they did that within about a week of the disappearance.

[Nigel C]

Cheers

[Geoff Br]

There are too many things that don't gel. About the only way I can reconcile them is to rationalise that obfuscation is being deliberately introduced to mask the true source and means by which new search areas are being identified and adopted.

The most recent change is too glibly explained by faster plane + more fuel burned = less distance. And the effort expended on the abandoned area is just wasted entirely?

If we get any closer to the Australian mainland OUR defence forces will have to start explaining what they knew and when they knew it ...

Agree Philip, some thing "odd" about the whole episode. I think the various authorities know a lot more than they are letting on. My thoughts go out to the crew and pax, all innocent parties?

[Greg Hyde]

4Corners will look at MH370 next Monday night (19/05)