An odd interaction with the Botany Police
 

While I was out at the mound today, a state police truck pulled up in front of the fence. It then proceeded to drive up on to the mound itself. At first, Matt and I thought that they were just up there to have a break, but alas; they emerged.
Heading over towards us, they asked us what we were doing. One even said that she knew we were photographing airplanes, but still wanted to know what we were doing. Allegedly, there had been a complaint that someone was spotting? I don't know, it seemed very strange. What is even more odd is that the mound is AFP land, and furthermore the owner of this forum often speaks with AFP about our plans.
I have to ask: what was going on?

Errr...the mound is 'AFP land'? The state cops have just as much right to be there as the feds and I've seen them during all hours of the day and night patrolling around there.

If they took no action on the spot, then I think it's fair to say there was nothing going on.

When I was out there today, there were a few people there - one had a gawdy airplane shirt on.

Maybe they had a complaint about a crime against fashion. :D

Where, exactly, is 'the mound' ??

Stae law applies in Commonwealth places
 

In case anyone mistakenly believes that State law doesn't apply on Shep's Mound: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...970376/s4.html

Google Earth, enter -33.945122,151.180447

"What is going on?" The police are doing their job!! I can't recall how many times either a State or Federal officer has approached me at an airport saying that they have had a query/complaint from the public about me taking plane photos and this being 'suspicious behaviour'. Just tell them what you are doing and show some photos... they usually accept that... after a quick ID check of course!!

Damian

but why he have to do an ID check, have you broken law?

Umm, don't know how to do that. Is it near the fire station?

Police use ID checks as a means to an end. No on this occasion you may not have broken a law however with a simple ID check they can see what you of done in the past and if you are currently wanted for anything/in breach of bail etc etc. There was some media today about a police blitz on the railways and something like over 2,000 arrests were made in 6 months. You would find that many, many of these arrests probably stemmed from a simple ID check.

No different then them punching in your cars number plate into their computer while they are following you.

Unless you have something to hide there should be no concern in given the cops your ID. Remember you can always ask them to see there badge as well.

Cheers

M

Jeff, the mound is at the base of the control tower.

Australia is not a police state, so no policemen should be able to interfere with a citizen unless they have a belief that person has committed a criminal offence.

The Government has no right to know what I am doing or where I am, unless the crime proviso above applies. By checking ID online, my name and then location in now held in Government computer for ever, THIS IS NOT RIGHT.

the younger generation are giving up this basis right without question

Banjo

Fair dinkum...

Just let the coppers get on with their (very difficult) job. Their is no point having a bitch and a whinge because they asked for ID...just show them the stupid card, what does it matter?

Takes 5 seconds of your time to hand them your drivers liscence, and everyone is happy. If they tell you to leave, just be polite, point out that you are allowed, have spoken to the AFP blah blah blah.

Its seriously not an issue to get all workd up about, let alone all the civil libertarians getting involved...If I am around an airport taking photos, I expect to be asked who I am and what I am doing...an airport is not an invitation for photographers going around doing whatever the hell they want.

While it is my understanding that the police have no right to force you to show id in that situation (please correct me if I am wrong, I have no legal background), it would appear highly suspicious if someone refused to show ID - the first thing that will go through the cops minds is "what does this guy have to hide?"

I have absolutely no objection to police asking me for ID - what harm can possibly come about from the "big bad" government knowing that I took pics at the airport that day - just look at jetphotos.net and you'll see what days I was there.

As Mark said, one of the main reasons they check your ID is to see if you have any history of related offences or warrants. Feel free to refuse to show ID and then see what happens!! I assure you it will be much more hassle than just showing them your damn drivers license.

The real issue here is not whether they ask you for your ID, but what is done with the ID and whether any information about your current activity is stored somewhere.

That's another discussion, though, but that's where the civil rights issues are.

I was the one who spoke to the police with Bernie last weekend.

It seems as of late justifyably or not (thats up to what you think) AFP patrols around the mound, beach and key spots we frequent have been far more. I for example saw at least 2 in the few hours I was spotting at the mound with Bernie on saturday morning.

Now I guess this is fair enough- they are doing their jobs and youd hope they are protecting our airports well. This becomes a problem when they feel the need to constantly come up, ask us what we are doing, take down names etc etc which really is not necessary unless we are breaking a rule ie closer then 3 metres to a fence or within airport perimeter.

This time we had 2 young women from the Botany Bay Police as Bernie says who came in their patrol car onto the mound and up to us saying they had recieved a phone call and reports- (from public or AFP or whoever im not sure- they didnt say) about unusual activity occuring here and they wanted to know what was happening.

A quick explanation of photography, the forum and we are in constant contact with the AFP was enough. There were about 15-20 of us in total there including a few from this forum and I was asked who the rest were with the question are they all part of this forum seeming a bit strange to me as many were grandparents with young children!

Either way- they checked the details (presumably with AFP) and left. The point is we have to be compliant because these are the guys with the power and unfortunately could close down or restrict our viewing access if we are to be rude or arrogant towards them.

There are a couple of people (i presume so, but am not sure if they are on these forums) who have been in the past week at least tending to stand at the fences very close (ie closer then 3 metres). I saw this on Saturday and another spotter told me he saw it the week before.

I urge these person/s to stay back within the legal limit of 3 metres as it could potentially result in it recking the priveleges for all of us. I believe the reason the police might have been called on Saturday was someone close at the mound fence (closer then 3 metres).

Anyways that being said- hopefully we can enjoy many more days of spotting at the brilliant locations at Sydney!

Based on that comment, you are saying that the police should sit back and watch until a criminal commits an offence and THEN take action, rather than proactively seeking to stop a crime before hand.

The whole idea of the patrols, and the asking of ID and questions is a common form of proactive policing. More often than not people are legitimate in their actions and whereabouts but there comes a time when this is not the case and the police catch a crook.

As a society we always seem to complain the police never do enough, then when they do something constructive we tear them down. Can't have your cake and eat it too if you want to feel safe and protected.

What principle are you applying here?
 

I understand you feel strongly about this, Andrew. Do you also refuse to undergo the security scan when going airside to catch a flight? What about at an RBT stop - do you refuse to show your licence? Do you show your bag contents when leaving a shop if you're asked?

I'd much rather Police satisfied themselves that someone was safe than to ignore them and discover they were up to something nefarious. You are of course entitled to remain silent, but then they are entitled to draw inferences from that.

In this day and age, loitering and taking photos close to the perimeter fence of an airport is probably reasonable cause to ask you for id anyway. If you decide to take a contrary stand, it might rebound on all of us. Please at least give that some mature thought. :(

Australia is a police state ! at least NSW anyway , too many rules and regulations that limit good citizens going about there everyday life ! overregulated with too many different police departments on a power trip !!:)

Some good mature responses here guys, it's good to see.

However, I'm sorry Andrew, but I'm with the other blokes on this. If an officer of the law requests to see my ID and ask's me what I'm doing, I'll more than happily oblige, knowing that they're simply doing what is requested of them by the powers that be. As NickN said, proactive policing is the best way to prevent crime. We may not be the one's who are going to commit crime, but what's to say someone else who they ask, isn't?

I'm keen to try and understand why you don't feel the need to?

Mick

Come and live in victoria where all they want is revenue from the roads.We get 3 km an hour tollerance and the fines are shockers.We do get left alone when spottiing though.

cops
 

Ray they are like that here on the roads, but thankfully there is little hassle at the airport.

I've always been told by airport security and the AFP that ladders are fine as long as they are at least 3m back from the fence line.

I have been approached while at the fenceline numerous times by security, who have always been friendly in explaining that they just need to check up on what I'm doing - there's never any problem whatsoever.

My attitude, which is appreciate is not the majority, is that every citizen should be able to proceed with life with minimally regulations, (can be defined as Libertarianism).

A basic right is the ability not to be stopped by a government official; unless that government official is following the law of the land.

It is not an offence in Australia, fortunately, to look at aircraft and take photos of them (in most circumstances).

Police in NSW have extensive powers; far greater than police in most other ‘modern’ nations, including the United States, Great Britain and Canada. Those powers are constantly increasing

Politicians have to seen to be strong by passing more draconian laws every day, N Rees Esq, standing answer to a problem is to increase the fine or change the law, Barry has to agree with each Rees move, so as not to look weak.

For example look at the current bikie laws, where Nicholas Cowdery QC, the NSW Director of Public Prosecution, says they "were unnecessary and offend against the rule of law".

Although police have a right to ask for your identity, in most situations you do not have to give it. Exceptions include traffic offences, refusing a breath test, when the police ‘reasonably believe’ that you witnessed a serious crime and after you are arrested.

So if you aren’t breaking the law by spotting, the policemen should follow his side of the law and not ask for identity.

Banjo

I do agree that checking ID is an invasion of privacy especially in a situation where there was no offence.

But the airport is a high risk area and I do believe we have a unique privilege to be able to get such fantastic views of aircrafts that could easily be blocked off for 'security' reasons.

While it may not be thier legal right to check ID in that situation I think its a bit of give and take. We get these excellent views for some small sacrifice of our legal rights in a particular area.

I personally am more than happy to go give up that legal right for the excellent viewing opportunities. It is also assuring to know that the area is kept secure.