Nine tourists killed in mid-air collision over New York

[David N]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/s...54-952,00.html

Aircraft reported to be Piper PA32-300 N71MC
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/...336ea4.jpg?v=0

and AS350 BA N401LH from Liberty Helicopters
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Liber...uil/1262263/L/

The Mayor of New York advised two bodies had been found so far.

[Philip Argy]

The news reports state:

The helicopter had just taken off from Manhattan's West Side for a 12-minute tour. Witnesses said the small plane approached the helicopter from behind and clipped it with a wing. Hersman said the helicopter was gaining altitude when the two aircraft collided.

Who (if anyone) has primary lookout responsibility in that situation? I'd have thought the aircraft ascending has responsibility to ensure it doesn't intrude into someone else's track, especially if the Piper pilot couldn't see the helicopter below him.

Do there need to be rule changes for these situations?

[NickN]

Media reports said that the chopper pilot was warned of traffic in the area shortly before the incident but musn't have paid attention.

[Nigel C]

"but mustn't have paid attention".....


Given you haven't provided any direct link, I don't know whether this is your interpretation of the report, or this is actually what was written.

In any case, it appears to be a rather short-sighted take on the events and possible actions taken by the pilot in the lead up to the collision.

[NickN]

The report was on the radio in the service station while I was waiting to pay, sounded like a reputable news report not some Top 40 station.

They clearly stated that the chopper pilot was warned not long before the crash of other air traffic.

The report may be wrong for all I know I was just relaying what I heard.

[Adam G]

Originally Posted by NickN

Media reports said that the chopper pilot was warned of traffic in the area shortly before the incident but musn't have paid attention.

Unfortunately these quotes are made by those in the media & on boards like this who have never flown a real plane & have no idea how difficult it can be to actually see other aircraft.

I've had situations where ATC have given me essenitally an exact positon of an aircraft and even then I've not been able to see it - depending on the visibility, sun glare, clouds, background, aircraft type, aircraft colours, aircraft movement, how the aircraft are approaching other etc it can be very, very hard. Even had the helicopter pilot been aware he may have not been able to sight it or he may have been made aware too late.

I've had 2 very, very close calls in my time - once in controlled airspace & once outside controlled airspace and both times both I & the other aircraft were aware of our very close proximity but just couldn't actually see each other.

With all due respect, it's not like driving a car and spotting another car in the marked lane down the road with minimal cloure rates.

If anything the issue is using see & avoid in high density airspace - it's only a matter of time until 2 aircraft are in the same spot at the same time - pilots are only human and humans have limits - see & avoid doesn't allow a whole lot of space for error.

[Nigel C]

So NickN, is it you who's saying that the pilot "mustn't have paid attention", or was it the radio report?
It appears that it's either ill-informed media speculation, or you're passing unfair and/or unqualified judgement.

I think Adam G's first line sums it up perfectly.

...those in the media & on boards like this who have never flown a real plane & have no idea...

[Gerard M]

I thought i heard on the news the same thing. That a pilot in the area saw that the plane was too close and radioed the helicopter pilot but there was no response or something to that affect.
But can i ask wouldn't or shouldn't an area like that be controlled as they (the media) also said that it was up to the individual pilots to tell others where they are and where they're heading? It would seem its only a matter of time before these sort of things happened?

[David Ramsay]

Someone at his base attempted to call him when they saw the other aircraft but he didn't respond. That is all that was published. Let's not speculate any further.

He is from Auckland .. I know some of his family.

[NickN]

Nigel the comment run at the end of the segment from the newsreader was along the lines of ".... and it appears the pilot did not pay attention".

That's not word for word but close. Whether they meant he wasn't paying attention to the radio calls or to other nearby traffic I can't be sure.

As I said, just passing on what I heard so don't shoot the messenger.